[Damn True]

Today Yasser Arrafat (everyone favorite terrorist) issued a press release.
In it he asked Osama Bi-Laden to cease using the Islamic cause as motivation for and a rallying cry for his terroist activities.

Are you kidding me?

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Damn True
Today Yasser Arrafat (everyone favorite terrorist) issued a press release.
In it he asked Osama Bi-Laden to cease using the Islamic cause as motivation for and a rallying cry for his terroist activities.

Are you kidding me?

What's so wrong with that?

Don't forget that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Yasser Arafat is (ostensibly at least) head of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, fighting for the rights of the dispossesed Palestinians.

Rather different from Al Qaeda.

Also Nelson Mandela was officially a terrorist leader for many years, would you lump him in with the rest?

 

[Triphop]

Not rather different at all.

Al Qaeda=terrorist group

PLO=the first terrorist group

 

[Tweek]

It's all relative.
Arafat's trying to turn the PLO's image around. Kind of like "this is not your father's PLO," or maybe a kinder, gentler terrorist organization. No, not at all like them Al-Qaeda whackos.

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by Damn True
Today Yasser Arrafat (everyone favorite terrorist) issued a press release.
In it he asked Osama Bi-Laden to cease using the Islamic cause as motivation for and a rallying cry for his terroist activities.

Are you kidding me?

Not exactly true.... He said to stop using the PALESTINIAN cause, b/c none of what he did helped them at all.

 

[Serial Midget]

9-11 has delected a lot of the world's attention away from Isreal and Palestine; the war on terrorism has allowed Isreal to step up their anti PLO campagne with little to no world outcry. Isreal has also labeled Arafat a terrorist and lumped the PLO right in there with Al Qaeda - Arafat is right to want disassociation.

 

[Tweek]

Disassociate from terrorism all you want, but it still doesn't erase past crimes against humanity.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Tweek
Disassociate from terrorism all you want, but it still doesn't erase past crimes against humanity.

Whoa... I'm not on anyones side here. I just don't think they are in the same bed is all. Arafat has far more political experience than bin Laden, he simply does not want to be associated with Al Qaeda as he feels it harms the cause and world image of the PLO. I tend to agree.

The early events of the American Revolution would certainly have been considered acts of terrorism if King George had been able to quash it.

 

[Tweek]

S.M., I didn't take it that way.
I just scoff at any attempts to legitimize the PLO because of their acts in the past.

 

[patconnole]

More of a question than a statement:

That conflict (Israel/Palestine) has been going on for a few thousand years...? Wasn't there a Palestine in the early 20th century? How did Israel come in to existance and oust Palestine? Was it through "legitimate" means?

I met a girl from Jordan my freshman year in college, and asked her "what's up with the whole "hating Israel" thing?" And she said her dad used to live in Palestine, but was kicked out when Israel came to be, now the family lives in Jordan. "Wouldn't you hate a country that took away yours?"


So, although the PLO may have done some stupid crap at the olympics a few decades back (???)..... I don't know. It's just the idea of "what would you do if you were in their shoes?" Not condoning violence at all, but I wonder how "legitimate" any sides are.

 

[cliffster5]

Originally posted by patconnole
More of a question than a statement:

That conflict (Israel/Palestine) has been going on for a few thousand years...? Wasn't there a Palestine in the early 20th century? How did Israel come in to existance and oust Palestine? Was it through "legitimate" means?

I met a girl from Jordan my freshman year in college, and asked her "what's up with the whole "hating Israel" thing?" And she said her dad used to live in Palestine, but was kicked out when Israel came to be, now the family lives in Jordan. "Wouldn't you hate a country that took away yours?"


So, although the PLO may have done some stupid crap at the olympics a few decades back (???)..... I don't know. It's just the idea of "what would you do if you were in their shoes?" Not condoning violence at all, but I wonder how "legitimate" any sides are.

Hey Pat, there is a wonderful, concise 7 part history of the Israel/Palestinian conflict transcripted on npr.com from their recent 7 part series. It starts with the rise of Zionism in Europe at the end of the 19th century and takes you through Great Britain's involvement in the 30s and 40's, to their ouster at the end of WW2, to the Yom Kippur War, to the two Infitadas (including some discussion of Israel's invasion and ill-fated occupation of Lebannon). For a more lengthy tome, consider Tom Friedman's From Beirut To Lebanon. Pretty fascinating history imo. Seems like the Palestinians have a good deal in common with the Native American Indians in terms of their displacement. At the same time, it appears that other Arabs in that part of the world have not been too sympathetic in opening their wallets and lands to the Palestinians. There have been so many bad choices made up and down both sides in the past 120 years. What a fine mess indeed!

 

[patconnole]

Thanks. NPR rules.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
9-11 has delected a lot of the world's attention away from Isreal and Palestine; the war on terrorism has allowed Isreal to step up their anti PLO campagne with little to no world outcry. Isreal has also labeled Arafat a terrorist and lumped the PLO right in there with Al Qaeda - Arafat is right to want disassociation.

The world didn't need Isreal to label the PLO as a terrorist organization. We already knew it.

Just ask the 1972 Isreali Olympic team.

By all accounts Arrafat himself was involved in the bombing.

 

[fluff]

Stepping back one moment from the terrorist acts (which I in no way condone), do you not feel that perhaps the Palestinians have reasons to feel hard done by?

 

[Sideways]

What about all the terrorist acts that americans troops are put up to?

Or is securing oil supplies and political domination differant than fighting for ones own land back?

 

[manimal]

besides the fact that he's the ugliest guy in the world, he's really a nice guy. see, he's helping one of his loyal subjects cure the hiccups. unfortunately, arafats hiccup remedy didn't work so he had the man eviscerated to cure the ailment.

 

[rbx]

so that fat bastard sharon is not a terrorist...remenber the beirut massacre under his orders...

stop getting your news from FOX and CNN...

 

[Serial Midget]

So, Damn True, in the eyes of the Western word the PLO should be clearly recognized as a terrorist organization? So then, in the eyes of the Arab centric world, wouldn't the Mossad also be considered one in the same?

We get our news from our sources, they get their news from their sources... it is such a gray area.

 

[Eddie420]

I'd feel hard done by especially when the US government supports the Israeli's...
I agree with Sideways about the US troops commiting terrorist attacks, after all who is the country with the most weapons of mass destruction???? .The, US is going to kill innocent Iraqi people for OIL, sure Saddam is a major arsehole but have they found any link between Iraq and Al-Queda????
Damn true I'm not attacking you or whatever but why are you so against palestinians the Isreali's are just as bad....

 

[Damn True]

I'm against intentionally blowing up busses full of kids.
I'm against strapping plastique to 5 year olds.
I'm against blowing up a building full of Olympic atheletes.
I'm against hijacking planeloads of tourists and slitting the throat of a SEAL who was just trying to go home on leave.
I'm against hijacking ships and killing retired vacationeers.
I'm against planting large explosive devices on 747's and blowing them up over Scotland.
I'm against driving a truckload of dynamite into the front of a disco in Berlin.
I'm against car bombs in downtown London.
I'm against driving a boatload of explosives into the side of a ship.
I'm against flying aircaft into the side of a building.

I am not against a uniformed military engaging the enemy. If that enemy by the act of it's own cowardice decides to mask itself by not wearing uniforms and hiding behind innocents then the blood of those people is on their hands.

 

[Eddie420]

Ok so the blood of the innocents is on the enemy's hands......that's not helping the innocent people is it. I'm particularly referring George Dubya's plans on Iraq. I think that's terrorism.....
So you think it's ok, as long as you wear a uniform you can kill people???
All those things you say you are against is similar to what the US army will do in Iraq, No they won't strap plastique to 5 year olds or fly an aircraft into the side of the building, they'll just bomb the **** out of the country indiscriminately it's just the same.....Sure George Dubya will say it's to get rid of evil terrorists, but dude it's for OIL ok...
What really gives me the ****s is that our stoopid Australian prime minister is supporting Georgie and saying yeh sure we'll send in a our men in to Iraq.
The pm should realise that Australia has absolutely NO weight in the world and the US couldn't give a crap about some dumb country way down there...

Peace

 

[Damn True]

Eddie, it is different. Regardless of what you think.
If you people would pull your collective heads out of the clouds and take a look at what is really going on you would understand.

First of all there is no such thing as indiscriminate bombing. Never has been. Even unguided bombs cost as much as your house (in AUD at least). We don't just go lobbing them about like spitwads. The are placed on targets that are sites or weapons systems that could assist an enemy.

Take this for instance. In order to efectively control an airspace we have to eliminate the anti-aircraft capability of the enemy. In order to do that we have to blow up the radar sites and missile launchers. We do that using a radar guided missile or bomb. The weapon tracks the radar signature of the site the same way a heat seeker tracks the exhaust of a jet.
Hussein isn't a dumb guy. He knows this. If the enemy places an anti-aircraft missile launcher on the roof of a mosque the weapon does not know the difference. The enemy has out of cowardice hidden behind innocents. Knowing full well that the military it is engaging will have to hit the target and in doing so blow up the mosque. That blood is on the enemy's hands.
Yes, it's that simple.

...and yes, it's different.

Terrorism is the intetional targeting of innocents and civilian sites.

Combat is the targeting of military targets. If the enemy hides them behind civilians then those deaths are on the enemys hands.

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by Damn True


I am not against a uniformed military engaging the enemy. If that enemy by the act of it's own cowardice decides to mask itself by not wearing uniforms and hiding behind innocents then the blood of those people is on their hands.

YEAH!!!
RIGHT ON TRUE!!
Screw Paul Revere
Screw TJ (Thomas Jefferson)
Screw the whole Continental Congress!!
They were not a real army with uniforms.
All they were, were civilians resisting what they saw as the unfair rule of "their land" (that they stole from the indians, but who cares about that...) by the British.

Things are not always black and white.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by Damn True

I am not against a uniformed military engaging the enemy. If that enemy by the act of it's own cowardice decides to mask itself by not wearing uniforms and hiding behind innocents then the blood of those people is on their hands.

If you don't march in a perfectly rectangular Phalanx of 16 wide into the battle, you are a straight up puss.
Hiding behind stealth jets, inside of armored tanks, and especially the office of president is an obvious act of cowardice.

 

[rbx]

DT--please tell me what do want the palestian to do when they have no weapons are starving and their back are against the wall
2month ago sharon started taking land thats even deeper into palestian grounds even the jewish settlers declared that action as going to far...

i am not bias my native country(lebanon) has been under attack from palestians AND from isarelis in the past(as well as by other countrys like syria)

it just get pissed off when people see only one side of the story..and have not traveled or dont get their news from international sources.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by -BB-
YEAH!!!
RIGHT ON TRUE!!
Screw Paul Revere
Screw TJ (Thomas Jefferson)
Screw the whole Continental Congress!!
They were not a real army with uniforms.
All they were, were civilians resisting what they saw as the unfair rule of "their land" (that they stole from the indians, but who cares about that...) by the British.

Things are not always black and white.

Our own history is what prevents us from blowing up the PLO and yet forces us to consistantly side with Isreal. Anyhow, I just looked in my pockets and all my coins have two sides. BTW the Mossad are not a uniformed army and they have been involve in selective assasinations for over 40 years. DT - if you would take the time to learn both sides of the story you would know that both sides of this issue have been deeply involved in terrorist style activites for 50 years or better.

 

[Will_Jekyll]

Originally posted by -BB-
YEAH!!!
RIGHT ON TRUE!!
Screw Paul Revere
Screw TJ (Thomas Jefferson)
Screw the whole Continental Congress!!
They were not a real army with uniforms.
All they were, were civilians resisting what they saw as the unfair rule of "their land" (that they stole from the indians, but who cares about that...) by the British.

Things are not always black and white.

Um., they did not murder civilians they fought the British on the battle field. Modern Terrorism was some what invented by the IRA.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by Will_Jekyll
Um., they did not murder civilians they fought the British on the battle field. Modern Terrorism was some what invented by the IRA.

Modern terrorism has been reinvented by GOP spin.

 

[Silver]

You can't compare the PLO and the IRA. The IRA plants bombs and phones in BEFORE they go off. They are much more interested in property damage than human carnage.

I'd imagine that if the IRA was doing the kind of **** that the PLO pulls everyday, they would have ceased to exist a long long time ago.

How the hell does the PLO get more sympathy than the IRA anyways...what a world.

(I'm not agreeing with the IRA's tactics either. I just don't think they are a valid comparison at all. Like comparing a SID race fork to a Super Monster. They are both suspension, but that's about where the similarities end.)

 

[patconnole]

I'm not a home for the week, so I can't quote directly from the sheet--- But Bert Sacks, a programmer from Seattle who's been to Iraq nine times, compiled a few pages of documents that explain some of the effects and intentions of our precision bombing, and sanctions.


paraphrasing... "The (military..) refused two written requests for explanations of the military value of the 27 power/electric stations bombed during war..."

".... The "precision guided weapons" have had a greater long-term impact on innocents and civilians than indescriminant bombing..."

quote from military general guy... "You have to impose a long term problem on Saddam. He doesn't have the means or equipment to fix some of his utility (water, electricity...) problems, and so it gives us and he UN long term leverage. We can say, "Saddam, when you do this, we'll send people in the fix your power.""

Well, maybe saddam placed some guns or whatever on Iraq's water and electricity facilities, and then we had no choice but to destroy them in the process.... but I think we bombed places like that on purpose, as a means of imposing "long term leverage".

 

[Damn True]

There is a huuuuuuuuuuge difference between geurilla warfare and terrorism.
If you don't know that stay out of the conversation.
Semantic interpretations of centuries old events have nothing to do with this.

The mossad is a black ops unit, similar in many ways to a SEAL team or an ARMY special forces unit working with/for the CIA. They don't blow up civilians. They blow up the PLO.....they blow up terrorists.

Terrorism cannot be combated by traditional means. Because they are cowards and won't engage an enemy in battle we have to bring the war to them. They know this. Their cowardice is the cause for the collateral damage.


What should the Palestinians do, or Al-Queda, or the f'n rich Saudis that fun them for that matter?
F'ing behave like human beings not f'ing animals!
Those animals and others like them will never see their agenda's to fruition when they will not behave like civilized human beings. If they insist on thier current behavior far more of theirs will die than they could imagine killing of ours.
At some point they have to do one of two things.

a) asimilate
b) die

Throughout the history of this planet civilizations have taken over other civilizations. Be it for reasons of wealth, technological superiority, or sheer numbers it happens. Today's maps of Europe, Asia, Africa etc. look nothing like the maps of 100 years ago. That is just the way the world works. They may not like it, but that is just too damn bad. There is no basic human right for people to be happy about everything. The nations of this planet are not required, nor have they ever been, to be nice.
This isn't recess, this isn't an ethics class, this isn't the quad at the University of Spoiled Children. This is the real world. Get off your high horses and realize that this is not some new development. This type of thing has been going on since Abraham walked across what is now Iraq.
There are other countries that are larger, wealthier, more advanced than their own. They have been absorbed. Sorry. Time to put it behind you and stop sending your own kids to die over a line on the map.


My new mantra:
"Never argue with a fool.
They will lower you to their level,
then beat you with experience!"


Some of the attitudes you people have are shameful.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by Damn True
...That is just the way the world works. They may not like it, but that is just too damn bad. There is no basic human right for people to be happy about everything. The nations of this planet are not required, nor have they ever been, to be nice...

I agree with that, as long as what I'm reading is that "All is fair".

Some folks have more power than others.
Others do what they can to keep from being stepped on.
Stop breaking down the differant methods of war!
It aint pretty, no matter what way it's done.

 

[Serial Midget]

LOwer yourself to our level??? Really Damn True - you flatter yourself!!!

Just because someone does not agree with you does not make their views less valuable than yours. If you have all the answers why haven't you save the world yet???

My new mantra:
"Never argue with a fool.
They will lower you to their level,
then beat you with experience!"
Some of the attitudes you people have are shameful.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Sideways
I agree with that, as long as what I'm reading is that "All is fair".

Some folks have more power than others.
Others do what they can to keep from being stepped on.
Stop breaking down the differant methods of war!
It aint pretty, no matter what way it's done.

You are only 1/2 correct.

Some have more power than others, and the one with the most, wins.


It dosen't matter if we are talking about two tomcats fighting behind your house, two tribes in sub-saharan africa, two football teams, two brokerage firms, or two nations. That is the way the world works.
If you are on the short end of that stick you can asimilate or die. The choice is yours.

As for the different methods of war, you are 100% right. All of it is ugly. However if one must go to war, one should engage combatants not civilians.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Damn True
As for the different methods of war, you are 100% right. All of it is ugly. However if one must go to war, one should engage combatants not civilians.

Why? It's war.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by Damn True
You are only 1/2 correct.

Some have more power than others, and the one with the most, wins.


It dosen't matter if we are talking about two tomcats fighting behind your house, two tribes in sub-saharan africa, two football teams, two brokerage firms, or two nations. That is the way the world works.
If you are on the short end of that stick you can asimilate or die. The choice is yours.

As for the different methods of war, you are 100% right. All of it is ugly. However if one must go to war, one should engage combatants not civilians.

The thing about war is you never know who's going to win.
You want to name the victor before the battle is over, DT.
From your perspective, the outcome is already obvious.
If it were so obvious to everyone, why would war be necessary?
While I may respect you, I really dislike your righteous attitude.

 

[fluff]

Wow so much misinformation in so few posts...

The IRA have done some very evil things, including killing women and children indiscriminately. Having been in the close proximity of one or two of their bombs a few years back I don't see them as any different to any other terrorist organisation.

Are all terrorists cowards? I guess you must be a coward to kill yourself for a cause you believe in then, which is what a suicide bomber does.

No basic human right to freedom? This from a man who believes in the US as the defender of freedom, yet also the land that refuses to sign various UN treatis designed to give all people the same rights.

We should accept an unjust world and stop whinging about it? Why? Where would progress come from if we all just accepted that the **** we have today is inevitable? There'd be a lot more slaves in the world.

Bombing is never indiscriminate by the military and all civilian targets are justified because the enemy makes his own bed? What happened to that Chinese embassy that the US bombed? Did they have an anti-aircraft emplacement on it?

I've probably missed several points but I am a fool after all.

And none of the above means I support terrorism in any form, whether state-sponsored or not.

 

[fluff]

Oh yeah,

Assimilate or die? That only really leaves the palestinians one choice, the same one that Jews had in Nazi Germany.....

 

[fluff]

Oh yeah again......

Does it not strike anyone as odd that some Isreali war-heroes are refusing the fight the Palestinians any more because they see it as unjust?

 

[Will_Jekyll]

Originally posted by fluff
Oh yeah,

Assimilate or die? That only really leaves the palestinians one choice, the same one that Jews had in Nazi Germany.....

I can't believe you even try to compare the two.