I've been running Mavic EX729s with a Stan's tubeless kit for a while now, and after three Northstar trips this summer, the rims are finally on their way out. I could just build up another set of the same rims, but since I'm already running tubeless, I'm thinking of building up a set of 823 rims to save some weight and ditch the Stan's kit. My concern is durability though. I'm a heavy guy (200 lbs) and I ride really rough and rocky trails. Will the 823s be able to take a beating the same way my 729s have? If saving weight means significantly sacrificing durability, I'll probably stay away from the 823s then. What do you folks think? Any input is appreciated. Thanks.
thinking of switching from EX729s to EX823s
- Thread starter dexterq20
- Start date
I'm 265-ish and I've run my 823's for about 8 days at whistler this year...+ 2 or 3 days last year. Still true, spokes could use a little tightening before the next trip up...but they hold up that's for sure. They're not my primary wheelset, but they do see a lot of abuse when I choose to run 'em. I'm not on the tubeless setup yet thought...still running tubes for the moment.
If you are thinking about saving weight with the 823's over the 729's with a tubeless kit, you actually will be gaining weight.
The 729 is a non-UST rim, therefore it does not require the special eyelets that are threaded into the top of the rim as are found on the UST-compatible 823.
The 729 is listed at 675g and this is pretty accurate since the rim hasn't changed much over the years.
The 823's listed weight is 657g - but this value hasn't changed since they first introduced the 823 back in 04'. As some may recall, Mavic had some pretty serious issues with the original design of the 823 - too weak, and would flat-spot very easily. For 2005 Mavic changed the cross-section of the 823 completely, making it more box-like than the original A-frame design. So the weight listed most likely reflects the 1st generation 04' 823.
In addition, they do not include the aforementioned threaded eyelets. The recorded weight of a 32H 823 rim WITH the eyelets is approx. 740g!
The 729 is a non-UST rim, therefore it does not require the special eyelets that are threaded into the top of the rim as are found on the UST-compatible 823.
The 729 is listed at 675g and this is pretty accurate since the rim hasn't changed much over the years.
The 823's listed weight is 657g - but this value hasn't changed since they first introduced the 823 back in 04'. As some may recall, Mavic had some pretty serious issues with the original design of the 823 - too weak, and would flat-spot very easily. For 2005 Mavic changed the cross-section of the 823 completely, making it more box-like than the original A-frame design. So the weight listed most likely reflects the 1st generation 04' 823.
In addition, they do not include the aforementioned threaded eyelets. The recorded weight of a 32H 823 rim WITH the eyelets is approx. 740g!
Yah 823's can take a hit for sure. There was 1 year where they sucked but they updated the next year. Buddys been running them for about a year now.
^^^^
what he said.
^^^^
what he said.
Oh... nevermind then. I'm sticking with 729s. Thanks fellas.
Wasn't the -04 weight of the 823 10gr above or under the weight of the 721, ie ~580gr? That's how I remember it anyways.
23mm internal rim width isn't much. 29mm gives a much better tire profile.
823's are a mutha f'ers to get tires mounted on. Our team all hated them. I'd sign the cheque and pick up a couple of Dee Max (rims only). Tires go on like butter!
The 823s are 700g.
The 729s are 670g.
Stans rim strips are 65g each.
You also have to run significantly less sealant with the 823. This brings the weight (depending on tire size) down around 6 ounces with 823s.
The 729s are 670g.
Stans rim strips are 65g each.
You also have to run significantly less sealant with the 823. This brings the weight (depending on tire size) down around 6 ounces with 823s.
Oh the irony...
You don't even need sealant with UST tyres on 823s until you beat them up enough or want the puncture sealing bennefit of sealant.
So the 823/UST set up even with sealant would be lighter. A 721 sealant set up is lighter again,but not by much.
I think the 823 is a stronger rim than the 729.
So the 823/UST set up even with sealant would be lighter. A 721 sealant set up is lighter again,but not by much.
I think the 823 is a stronger rim than the 729.
So true... the yellow color does make tires mount easier.
Yeah I hear that yellow paint makes the rims really slippery.
bahaha
I have posted this before, i laugh when people just outright assume the ex823 is heavier just because the rim itself is heavier. Once you include rim strips and rim tape the ex823 comes out better.
Give or take a few grams, the ex823 is lighter then the ex729+ rim strip, and if you don't run stans in the ex823 you could save around 100grams over the ex729 combo.cave dweller said:
its not like they are the same or anything...
You guys are idiots. I have both sets of rims and the Dee Max have a deeper center channel and sidewall which gives you more room to mount the tire. I thought they were just painted versions of the 823, but they are NOT. Take a closer look for yourself.....unless they made a design change on the new ones.
You haven't factored in there is no need to a Stan's rim strip or sealant if using UST tires.
OLD (tough as ****e to mount)
NEW (like Dee Max)
So I sort of stand corrected...haha...I guess there was a design change. I just had a baby this year and have been out of the bike scene and am not up to date on the latest gear I guess.....damn kids.
EDIT: I thought I was on Pinkbike there for a second with all the flaming going on by the "hardcore" ridemonkey elitists....jesus :rolleyes"
I've never had a problem mounting tires on 823's, ever.
But mavic suggest using 16mm nipples with the 823s....
I'm kind of kidding. I really could care less about 100g.
First year on the 823 before I was on the 729. So far it has held up great in combinations with Maxxis Minion DHF tubeless tires. I think they are at least as strong as the 729 and as I fan of tubeless this is for me the best setup out there.
Cave Dweller - yeah, you're right - you can have an overall lighter tire/wheel with an 823 vs. a 729, but that all depends on what tires you're using. 
Also:
Salami - I was just focusing on the rims.
Also:
There's no way a 2.5 Maxxis DHF could weigh 1330g. I've weighed a couple (2.5 DHF 40a SRY) and they all average out to somewhere between 1207 and 1213g. A 2.5 Maxxis UST DHF I've never weighed, but I do believe it is more than a regular "tubed" DHF. So 1300g for a UST DHF sounds plausible. Keep in mind that there are variations in weight due to humidity @ time of production, but to go from say, 1209 to 1330 dosen't sound right.
Salami - I was just focusing on the rims.
823's are really tough, I am happy w/ their durabilty. I have been running Minion DHF 3C's tubeless with a bit of Stans..works killa!
Don't want to go tubeless? Here's a warning then; They are nearly impossible to mount a DH tube in (if you can find presta valved DH tubes) and XC tubes are hard enough to get to mount up w/ out pinching the tube.
Don't want to go tubeless? Here's a warning then; They are nearly impossible to mount a DH tube in (if you can find presta valved DH tubes) and XC tubes are hard enough to get to mount up w/ out pinching the tube.
So assuming your numbers are correct, I've figured that if I were to switch to 823s from my current 729 setup, I'd only save 10g per wheel. Sounds like a waste of time to me.
In case you're curious, here's my math (according to Cave Dweller's numbers):
729 rim (675g) + Stan's strip (65g) + 2 scoops of Stan's (60g each) = 860g
823 rim w/ inserts (730g) + 2 scoops of Stan's (60g each) = 850g
Well, if you have to rebuild the wheels and like UST then why not rebuild with UST rims? It would make sense.
Also, you forgot the rim tape (15 grams) on the 729 and you can use a little less stans to no stans with the ex823 rims. Plus you don't have to fug around with rim strips and the tires inflate with a hand pump. Also, if your really anal about it you would note that the mass of the EX823 system is closer to the centre of the wheel meaning less inertia = faster wheels.
I have not had good luck using non UST tires with tubless for DH. I have had 2 tires roll off the rim. The tires sidewalls are not strong / flex resistant enough IMO. UST tires are designed to be used without tubesCave Dweller - yeah, you're right - you can have an overall lighter tire/wheel with an 823 vs. a 729, but that all depends on what tires you're using.
The UST tire has a kevlar bead vs the normal tires steel. I have held both side by side and they felt the same, infact the UST felt slightly lighter. But taking the UST tire out of the equation the ex823 rim vs the ex729+rim strip is lighter.
Thought Dee Max rims are spesifically for Dee Max wheelset only.
Can it be mounted to other hubs as well, like Hope Pro2??
get 721s.....they are better than both
so having the 721 with velox, strip, stans and a michelin UST i guess i win and have the lightest setup!!!
ianC-THE lightest tubeless set up would be 5.1 with their own special rim strip. i cant quite remember the numbers but it nearly saves 200 grams a wheel over the 823 set up. anyways, i went the safe route and went full ust with 823s, loving it so far. another thing to note is that 5.1s work very well set up ghetto.
edit, forgot to add that 721s dont work well set up tubeless. there is no bead lock on the rim.
all the fast boys changing to 823 huh?first ian k, then me and zure, then hong chun and mann, you next? try looking into 819s also man. if you could stand the 5'1s the 819s will do the job for you. its nearly as light as the 5.1s at 520 grams including the eyelets.
edit, forgot to add that 721s dont work well set up tubeless. there is no bead lock on the rim.
yamm, there are deemax rims in 32 hole, they are really hard to get. you could also go with a 28 hole hope pro2 hub. not sure how well that will hold up tho. its not like you brake alot.. so might be ok.
all the fast boys changing to 823 huh?first ian k, then me and zure, then hong chun and mann, you next? try looking into 819s also man. if you could stand the 5'1s the 819s will do the job for you. its nearly as light as the 5.1s at 520 grams including the eyelets.
I've setup those rims tubeless more than any other. I've never had a problem.
I'm sure it depends more on the tire than anything.
yep.....i've been flogging mine tubeless....you just need an actual UST Nagesti tubeless tire(michelin)
rando and the giant team ran that sucessfully for the last two+ years with no problems as well
I've used marzocchi (made by nokian), WTB, and maxxis on those rims with no problems. None of them were UST. I've only used michelins with UST rims but they worked really well.
Yup,, I've been using 5.1 for almost a year now,. Am thinking to change to full UST. 819s? its narrow, don't think it's suit 2.5 tires.. but might consider 819s...
wow, could you explain the set up you use for tubeless? the only way i know for it to work well is to build up the rim, making mounting tires really hard.
yea, i agree that it might not give the best tire profile. i tried armijns bike which has a 2.5 maxxis on 819s and was alright with them. well, you were running 2.7 kendas on your 5.1 weren't you? i am sure that would be much rounder then a 2.5 maxxis on 819s...
oh yea, forgot to add, tubeless is expensive, and annoying, when you cant get the tires even if you are willing to pay loads for them. get a load of them when you go to indon, and faisal brings in intense tires, they work very well set up tubeless...
what you doing up so late anyways? night shift at work?
I just used stan's strips and then maxxis strips with sealant.
The maxxis strips were harder to get the tires seated but they worked better. A little easier to seal and I never burped them once.
I wish maxxis still made those things.
I imagine if you've got the patience, you could get a bmx/ghetto setup to work well.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm about to buy a set of 823s for my dh bikedamn, only if i knew this when i was still on 721's... cant complain about the 823s tho, only if mavic would offer their 821 rim as a rim only.lthumbsdown: