[LordOpie]

I test rode a Lemond Sarthe and very much loved the ride, except the geometry doesn't work for me. That said, the Sarthe is, I think, all True Temper OX. I'm going to go custom and the local builder says this...

True Temper OX Platinum - this is a very hard (195,000 psi) but still ductile steel that can be used with fairly thin walls (down to 0.7mm at the butts). I typically use OX Platinum for head tubes and down tubes.

True Temper Verus HT - this is a heat treated cromoly steel which is still quite hard (150-180,000 psi) and lightweight. Butts are as thin as 0.8mm. I use Verus HT for seat tubes, toptubes, chainstays, and seatstays.

Is "Verus HT" good enough or should I see if he can go with more OX? This isn't a weight issue. It's a comfort ride, durability thing.

TIA!

 

[math2014]

Hey man, why not going for something more reliable/durable? Like colombus Zona or something? I dont know but ultra-thin steel is as scary as thin alu and cf in my books.

 

[Pau11y]

I'm w/ math on this one. Zona (Niva Chroms) are good solid tubes. I have a Cove Handjob (mtb) made w/ this stuff and I like it very much for that purpose.
How much do you weigh LO? That Foco Strong I've been riding is not flexing much under me and I'm down to 173 bone dry these days (heheh.. was at 185 in the begining of last winter...woot!).

 

[LordOpie]

Are you guys familiar with True Temper's product line? I've been told that OX is similar to 853 in many aspects.

The guy only uses those two metals. What I'm wondering is, how does Verus HT compare to OX? IF OX=853, would VHT=7xx?

 

[Mike Stone]

I have a Kelly Ro Sham Bo which uses True Temper Platinum OX. The bike has Mavic Cosmos 700 wheels and a Marzocchi 700-spec fork. I have ridden it on three multi-week tours through Central America totalling over 500 hours. About 20% good paved roads, 30% rough paved roads, and 50% dirt/jeep trails. Some sections just severe stutter bumps hour after hour. Other sections bouncing down rocky jeep trails from peaks of 8-9000' altitude. The frame has held up perfect, which I find incredible, knowing what it has been through. So I can definitely give Platinum OX a thumbs up for strength and toughness.

 

[Arsbars]

I'm with Mike on the Platinum OX. I too have a Kelly but a Knobby X. Which I've put through hell and it's handled fine. I haven't heard too much for the Verus HT but Thylacine could give a better explanation of them all.

Zona is an alright material but riding wise Plantinum OX is much better IMO

 

[Thylacine]

My ears are burning! My ears are burning! *ow*

Okay, what we're interested in when it all boils down to it is various alloys Yield Strength (the point where it goes *kahboom*), and where abouts it's most likely to go *kaboom*. Ignore hardness or any talk of 'hard, yet ductile'. Generally you can't have both, and none of this is really fo any interest to the customer anyway. Block your ears everyone! TMI!

Anyhoo. I don't discriminate between tubes. I combine tubes with similar properties and Yield strengths. Brand is irrelevant to me. Many builders have many reasons to chose one brand over another, but I've found they're generally based on 'sticking to what you know' or 'I like this distributor'. I prefer criteria such as 'These tubes are closer to spec out of the box' and 'Brand X doesn't have the down tube I want, but brand Y does so I'm doing to spec that, even if it does cost an extra 15 bucks.'

Anyway, what was the question again? Ah, the difference between the tubesets. That's a big question. ceeway.com has all the info on the Columbus stuff and henryjames.com has info on the True Temper stuff. Basically, there are many tubesets that span the spectrum of strengths, with the 'air hardening' ones being at the top of the heap.

What's probably more important is that it's way more important HOW the pipes are stuck together. Anyone with 150 bucks can buy a top end tubeset, but not many can actually take your requirements and design you a good frame, and THEN make it to exacting requirements.

 

[LordOpie]

Thanks for the feedback on OX guys, but I do know I like that stuff. I only rode it for 1.5 hours, but it was a noticeably more enjoyable ride.

The bottomline question is: Verus HT, close enough to OX to go with the mix or is OX so much better than VHT that I should see if I can go with more/all OX?

 

[Thylacine]

At the risk of sounding like a bastard Opie, if you've given all the right info to the builder, he should be telling you what would best suit you needs - not leaving it up to you polling some strangers on the internet.

It's the design of the frame that dictates ride qualities in a much more pervasive manner than the tubeset alloy anyway.

Gawd. Have you put a deposit on this thing yet?

 

[LordOpie]

So you're saying the people shouldn't take the time to educate themselves?

Well, that was rather helpful.

 

[Thylacine]

Okay, I'll take that as a yes.

Well, I ride a full OX Platinum Thylacine Tephra, am 6ft 4ins, 200lbs, and many thousands of kms later it's fine. Would I personally do an OX bike as my next road frame? Doubtful. I'd probably go with a mix of Dedacciai and Columbus. Nicer tubes, more closer to spec, good availability (well, except for the Deda). Best part about TT is that they have a better spread of down tubes, which is nice for MTBs with long top tubes. That's about it.

Did you ask what the reasoning behind not using a full OX tubeset was? It can't possibly be ride quality or durability, so all I can think of is cost.

 

[indieboy]

My ears are burning! My ears are burning! *ow*

Okay, what we're interested in when it all boils down to it is various alloys Yield Strength (the point where it goes *kahboom*), and where abouts it's most likely to go *kaboom*. Ignore hardness or any talk of 'hard, yet ductile'. Generally you can't have both, and none of this is really fo any interest to the customer anyway. Block your ears everyone! TMI!

Anyhoo. I don't discriminate between tubes. I combine tubes with similar properties and Yield strengths. Brand is irrelevant to me. Many builders have many reasons to chose one brand over another, but I've found they're generally based on 'sticking to what you know' or 'I like this distributor'. I prefer criteria such as 'These tubes are closer to spec out of the box' and 'Brand X doesn't have the down tube I want, but brand Y does so I'm doing to spec that, even if it does cost an extra 15 bucks.'

Anyway, what was the question again? Ah, the difference between the tubesets. That's a big question. ceeway.com has all the info on the Columbus stuff and henryjames.com has info on the True Temper stuff. Basically, there are many tubesets that span the spectrum of strengths, with the 'air hardening' ones being at the top of the heap.

What's probably more important is that it's way more important HOW the pipes are stuck together. Anyone with 150 bucks can buy a top end tubeset, but not many can actually take your requirements and design you a good frame, and THEN make it to exacting requirements.

well said warwick

 

[Thylacine]

Thanks Indy

Man, I forgot all about RM. It's a miracle I could remember my password.

 

[Serial Midget]

I'm old school. tange prestige and columbus slx are good enough for me but, since opie's going custom, my work here is done.

 

[LordOpie]

I'm old school. tange prestige and columbus slx are good enough for me but, since opie's going custom, my work here is done.

It only took me 1.5 years to finally listen to you

I have no preference on tubes, but I do prefer to work with a local builder. I've spoken with two via email and they both use TT only. Another builder I haven't spoken to yet use Columbus. The rest of the builders are out of my price range.

 

[DRB]

It only took me 1.5 years to finally listen to you

I have no preference on tubes, but I do prefer to work with a local builder. I've spoken with two via email and they both use TT only. Another builder I haven't spoken to yet use Columbus. The rest of the builders are out of my price range.

Which builders have you been talking to?

 

[LordOpie]

Which builders have you been talking to?

waltworks.com

primusmootry.com -- I didn't speak with him directly. I got measured and had my bike designed by George at MOB Cyclery... highly recommended by tons of people in the greater Denver area. If I bought a PM bike, I'd be getting it through MOB. I'm not sure if PM actually deals with the public directly.

 

[Pau11y]

It only took me 1.5 years to finally listen to you

I have no preference on tubes, but I do prefer to work with a local builder. I've spoken with two via email and they both use TT only. Another builder I haven't spoken to yet use Columbus. The rest of the builders are out of my price range.

LO, you should have a chat w/ Kent Erickson here in Steamboat. He's out of Moots and doing this own thing now. He'll do steel, AL, and Ti. His new bikes are going to be named ByKE (By Kent Erickson). I don't know the prices but will be dropping by his shop later today. I can get a ball park number for you...if not a phone number.

 

[DRB]

I recently saw a custom 3D road bike made from Columbus Foco tubing. I was impressed with the construction of it. No idea what the cost was.

 

[Zutroy]

I have a custom road frame by Cherry Bicycles in Lafayette Indiana, it was a really good process. We mixed and matched tubes to get the stiffness i wanted, I mainly have Columbus Thron on the front with Tange Stays, the chain stays are round instean of the usual crimped oval shapr to give them alittle more stiffness side to side.

He does good work, i'm happy with it longest I've ever had a bike, going on 7 years now. Plus it's bass boat metal flake red with a red candy on top...how can ya not like that.

 

[ohio]

True temper is alright, and certainly well-priced for the alloy, but in my experience the tubes are not drawn and butted to the same standard as columbus and reynolds.

You will pay a premium for columbus, but that's because they do actually have the best alloys and draw some beautiful tubes in a wider range of sizes than anyone else. I would put reynolds a step below for a given alloy type. I don't have any experience with Dedacciai.

That being said, a good builder can build you a great bike with any of them. The right diameter and thickness tubing in the right place is far more important than the right alloy or even a perfectly drawn/butted tube. And correct tubing size choice isn't as important as fit. So find a good builder, put money out of mind, and take their advice.

 

[math2014]

When i did my research on Steel alloys about a year ago, i ended up with 3 alloys for me.

853, Colombus Zona, and Foco. And especially 853 and Zona,

My criteria? Stiffness, ride quality and longetivity above all. I ended up with the Zona (i couldnt try a foco), instead of a 853 or an Ultrafoco. Many UK bike shops talked me out of U-Foco and other similar tubesets given that i was 200lbs .

Thats my side of the story hence i made my comments earlier on. i cant comment on yield strenght or anything.

 

[Thylacine]

Opie, I'd be keen to see what numbers came out when you got measured up. What sort of geometry was recomended?

Also, are you just after a builder to build to your numbers and that's it? Or do you want more design input? You might find spending a couple of hundered dollars more results in an expedentially better designed and constructed frame.

 

[sanjuro]

At the risk of sounding like a bastard Opie, if you've given all the right info to the builder, he should be telling you what would best suit you needs - not leaving it up to you polling some strangers on the internet.

It's the design of the frame that dictates ride qualities in a much more pervasive manner than the tubeset alloy anyway.

Gawd. Have you put a deposit on this thing yet?

I would have to agree. Unfortunately, most of us, including myself, do not know enough about tubing or frame building to have any sort of valid opinion. We can speculate (or is that e-speculate) all we want, but unless someone here has build 500+ frames, there is not much else to be said.

I was wondering why the builder discussed tubing choices with even an informed customer. I bought a Seven and know Bernie Mikkelleson personally, and no one has even mentioned a tube brand to me.

Building road frames is still an art, and there should be a mystery to the average customer.

 

[indieboy]

that's b/c most of the TI manufacture's you're simply not going to know. where the steel manufactures have a history and a name and label/brand behind them.

 

[sanjuro]

I have to disagree. What is the ride charactistics of Reynolds/True Temper/Decaccai/Columbus/Tange tubing? What is the average butting width should I use? What is the correct braze temperature? Do you have a recommendation about the type of lugs?

One thought which just occurred to me is how does a framebuilder even tell which tubing he likes? Ride every frame he builds for 1000 miles? Again this just goes back to the art of framebuilding. It is not like Richard Sachs has a huge testing laboratory.

 

[LordOpie]

Unfortunately, most of us, including myself, do not know enough about tubing or frame building to have any sort of valid opinion. We can speculate (or is that e-speculate) all we want, but unless someone here has build 500+ frames, there is not much else to be said.

You don't have to be shot in the leg to know it'd hurt. You people do a lot of reading. While you might not have built a frame, you might have read something from someone you respect and that info might have stuck with you.

I was wondering why the builder discussed tubing choices with even an informed customer.

He didn't. He simply listed his pipes on his website FAQ.

Opie, I'd be keen to see what numbers came out when you got measured up. What sort of geometry was recomended?

Also, are you just after a builder to build to your numbers and that's it?

Pretty much. The price for a frame from an established local builder is about $2000. Price from the builders I'm looking at who don't have the long-term rep is $700-900.

 

[Leethal]

True Temper Versus HT comes in a wider variety of sizes than OX platinum does so that may beone reason, I don't see any problem mixing those tow as they are both air hardening high strength steels...

 

[sanjuro]

You don't have to be shot in the leg to know it'd hurt. You people do a lot of reading. While you might not have built a frame, you might have read something from someone you respect and that info might have stuck with you.

He didn't. He simply listed his pipes on his website FAQ.

This is a funny one. An informed customer is supposedly a better one. But I think knowing the tube manufacturer is not very important.

On one hand, you don't your frame builder buying his tubes from the local plumbing supply store (don't laugh, I know one frame built that way). But I bet which tubes he selects is a subjective process with almost no empirical study.

He probably chooses tubing for the right price (probably the most important factor), ease of brazing, and then what he thinks his frames should ride like.

I am sure he has strength and weight numbers for different tube and butting sizes, but ultimately it is his opinion which determines how your frame is built.

Conversely, if I told you my bike was constructed out of tubing X, would that have any relevance to your bike?

 

[LordOpie]

True Temper Versus HT comes in a wider variety of sizes than OX platinum does so that may beone reason, I don't see any problem mixing those tow as they are both air hardening high strength steels...

Thanks!

 

[indieboy]

I have to disagree. What is the ride charactistics of Reynolds/True Temper/Decaccai/Columbus/Tange tubing? What is the average butting width should I use? What is the correct braze temperature? Do you have a recommendation about the type of lugs?

One thought which just occurred to me is how does a framebuilder even tell which tubing he likes? Ride every frame he builds for 1000 miles? Again this just goes back to the art of framebuilding. It is not like Richard Sachs has a huge testing laboratory.

i think you slightly misunderstood what i said or maybe i didn't state it well

 

[sanjuro]

that's b/c most of the TI manufacture's you're simply not going to know. where the steel manufactures have a history and a name and label/brand behind them.

I don't know much about even my own bike's Ti tubeset, except that it was made in America. But knowing a frame is Columbus or True Temper frankly does not tell me much either.

 

[indieboy]

i know it doesn't but the point of my original statement is to the typical rider, seeing columbus or dedacchi or whatever is like seeing trek or specialized. it's a brand, it stands for something in their eyes

 

[sanjuro]

I will give you that. Back in the ancient days, I had to have a Columbus SLX frameset. At least the SLX version has helical ribs in the downtube, which supposedly gave the frame more stiffness.