[Bldr_DH]

OK, well, I was just about to get a new set of tubes for my amp when I came across a pull-down menu of about 10 different options. What exactly is the hardness of a tube? I can't find anything on my old tube except for "S4" and "JCC". Might the "4" be the hardness of it?

 

[quadricolour]

You should get solid state, they sound better.

 

[H8R]

You should get solid state, they sound better.

Great answer.



But I do know this: tubes are superior. It's a fact, like the grass is green and the sky is blue.

Hardness in tubes (I think) usually refers to sound quality, as opposed to warmth. A "hard" tube will give that "glassy" sound.

 

[GumbaFish]

How old is the amp, if its kinda new maybe you can contact the company or they sell replacement tubes on their site or something. As far as which is better in terms of solid or tube, why choose I just have one of each so I am always satisfied

 

[skatetokil]

there are message boards like this one dedicated to picking the right tubes. They are filled with the appropriate kind of audio geeks who will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about what tubes to buy.

 

[Enginerd A2]

What brand and model of amp is it?
Did you try The Tube Store yet?
www.thetubestore.com
Maybe call or email them for some advice.

 

[Bldr_DH]

It's a Marshall 3203 Artist -- not in production anymore, so that's why I haven't been able to find much info on it. I had a pair of Groove Tubes GT El34-C's in there before, so I figured I'd go with the same thing. I'm gonna go search for a tube amp-specific forum.

Thanks for the help!

 

[arboc!]

tubes rock, just dont get flexy ones

 

[clancy98]

steve at decware (www.decware.com) is an authority on tubes from what I gather.... maybe an email?

 

[llkoolkeg]

You should get solid state, they sound better.

That's like saying CD's sound better than vinyl.

Solid state is more reliable but it certainly doesn't sound better. Ever wonder why the best audiophile reference amps are tube amps? The most delicious-sounding amp(home, not guitar) I have ever heard was the Carver Silver Seven dual mono.

 

[narlus]

Ever wonder why the best audiophile reference amps are tube amps?

because they are more expensive? :devil:

 

[Toshi]

does anyone, "golden ears" or not, actually do double blind test on all this gear? my gut feeling is that after a certain point it's all pricetag and snootiness . the level of ear wax in each listener probably has a greater effect than interconnect cables...

 

[narlus]

 

[golgiaparatus]

Your der hanger is bent... without a doubt. Usually the LBS can get their hands on one for you. Untill then you just going to have to deal with crappy shifting.

 

[H8R]

Your der hanger is bent... without a doubt I. Usually the LBS can get their hands on one for you. Untill then you just going to have to deal with crappy shifting.

 

[llkoolkeg]

does anyone, "golden ears" or not, actually do double blind test on all this gear? my gut feeling is that after a certain point it's all pricetag and snootiness . the level of ear wax in each listener probably has a greater effect than interconnect cables...

It's like this, Toshi. I never knew good audio until I started selling the stuff, attending trade shows and new equipment seminars and had some recording studio time under my belt. There is certainly a point of diminishing marginal returns where you have to spend so much more to get better quality that only the rich can swing it. At 'regular' listening volumes, most can't tell a Sanyo from a Sunfire. But if you put on a dynamic piece of music(one not overly compressed) and crank it up to concert hall volumes, the cheepie componentry just falls apart. It does not have the ability to cope with huge spikes in current, especially ones following precise, softer passages. e.g. try listening to an audiophile copy of Haydn's #94 in G major or Carl Orff's Carmina Burana at a regular concert hall volume on a 'consumer electronics' home stereo. They actually have to put warning stickers on the discs to keep people from melting their amps or blowing their speaker voice coils. The only problem with acquiring this knowledge is that the good stuff spoils you for what you can actually afford. It'd be like having a job as a revered food critic for the New Yorker, being fired for whatever reason and then having to live off Ramen noodles and Taco Bell. That being said, I have to get by these days on Sony ES, Onkyo and Harmon Kardon.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

does anyone, "golden ears" or not, actually do double blind test on all this gear? my gut feeling is that after a certain point it's all pricetag and snootiness . the level of ear wax in each listener probably has a greater effect than interconnect cables...

Actually when I was demoing high end equiptment I listen with my eyes closed, it allows you to focus on the sound and not what they look like. It's much easier to pick out the tones you desire. It helps to be in a nice sound room with nobody else in the room besides the sales person.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

It's like this, Toshi. I never knew good audio until I started selling the stuff, attending trade shows and new equipment seminars and had some recording studio time under my belt. There is certainly a point of diminishing marginal returns where you have to spend so much more to get better quality that only the rich can swing it. At 'regular' listening volumes, most can't tell a Sanyo from a Sunfire. But if you put on a dynamic piece of music(one not overly compressed) and crank it up to concert hall volumes, the cheepie componentry just falls apart. It does not have the ability to cope with huge spikes in current, especially ones following precise, softer passages. e.g. try listening to an audiophile copy of Haydn's #94 in G major or Carl Orff's Carmina Burana at a regular concert hall volume on a 'consumer electronics' home stereo. They actually have to put warning stickers on the discs to keep people from melting their amps or blowing their speaker voice coils. The only problem with acquiring this knowledge is that the good stuff spoils you for what you can actually afford. It'd be like having a job as a revered food critic for the New Yorker, being fired for whatever reason and then having to live off Ramen noodles and Taco Bell. That being said, I have to get by these days on Sony ES, Onkyo and Harmon Kardon.

Very true, I'm running a Lexicon preamp, Sunfire Cinema Grand amp, with a Sunfire Truesub

 

[narlus]

Actually when I was demoing high end equiptment I listen with my eyes closed, and the sales dude stuck his hand down my pants

really?

 

[Brian HCM#1]

really? Damn I wish that could be me. I really have a crush on this big 350+ fat stereo salesman. All day I dream about listening to my abstract music collection with him

You should try it sometimes, but please spare the details

 

[llkoolkeg]

Very true, I'm running a Lexicon preamp, Sunfire Cinema Grand amp, with a Sunfire Truesub

Fvcking showoff! :angry:

I have drooled over the Truesub for some time now. Where is your house? I may have to drop by some time for a ride. Can you recommend a home security company?

 

[The Amish]

You should get solid state, they sound better.

Thats the dumbest thing Ive ever heard

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Fvcking showoff! :angry:

I have drooled over the Truesub for some time now. Where is your house? I may have to drop by some time for a ride. Can you recommend a home security company?

I still have the original True sub, got it back in 1997, its the 11" cube with the 8" drivers. I want the 13" cube with the 10" drivers!!!!!! Still at 2700 watts it knocks all shorts of stuff off the walls As far as alarm companies I have no clue, when my buddy and I set up my system he hooked up the alarm system with it, and yes ALL windows are bugged and there are motion dectectors on both floors...............Welcome to Fort Knox

 

[Toshi]

Actually when I was demoing high end equiptment I listen with my eyes closed, it allows you to focus on the sound and not what they look like. It's much easier to pick out the tones you desire. It helps to be in a nice sound room with nobody else in the room besides the sales person.

llkoolkeg and brian, pick out the pricier equipment in a double blind test and let's talk. standing in a sound room with the sales guy does NOT constitute such a test. yes, even if you close your eyes :nuts:

 

[Bldr_DH]

Ok, New question, guys:

Can E34L's be used in place of EL34 tubes? I seem to think they can, but I should be sure before I get 'em.

I would ask on harmony central or something, but they rejected my email addy when I registered and I'm too lazy to go find another site at the moment...

 

[lux]

I copied this from TheTubeStore.com. Seems to answer questions about the EL34Ls. My amp guy used to use Sovtek tubes in my touring rigs (Marshall something or other, Bedrock and Mesa Boogie 50-cal). Never had any complaints. My Mesa kept blowing capacitors, but the factory sent him a fix -- never had anything to do with the tubes, anyway. Don't know why I even mention it. Maybe i'm a dork.

Home > Reviews > EL34 Types Review

Review Notes - how we conducted the review
Tube comparison table - reviews at a glance
EL34 Reviews

Review Notes
Tube reviews written by John Templeton.

It’s not easy evaluating something as subjective as sound. We each have our own personal taste in music and the way it sounds. I have attempted to add some objectivity by defining some aspects of tube performance that affect any listener, regardless of application, budget or musical taste. The EL34 is a very popular tube and is used in equipment that creates as well as reproduces music. This testing was done using tube guitar amplifiers. With this in mind, consideration has been given to construction quality and mechanical noise. These factors are important to musicians but may not be an issue when a tube is used in the home or studio.

Test Amps:

1973 Marshall Super Lead model 1959 This amp is completely stock using NOS pre-amp tubes. The sound was reproduced through a 1971 Marshal cabinet with 4 Celestion G12M "greenback" speakers.

Class A Combo Designed and built by Bernard Raunig. This is a true single ended class A amplifier, using a 5Y3 rectifier and a single 5691 pre-amp tube. With a volume and single tone control this amp really lets you hear the tonal differences between the tubes.



EL34 comparison at a glance
Rated 0 - 5 where 0 is Poor and 5 is Excellent
Rows in gray are tubes used for reference
Manufacturer Model Noise /
Microphonics Mechanical Noise Detail Harmonics
Siemens EL34 4
2
5
5

JJ (Tesla) E34L 4
4
3
4

Shuguang EL34-B 4
5
4
5

Electro Harmonix EL34EH 4
4
5
4

Sovtek EL34WXT 4
4
4
4

S.E.D. EL34 4
4
5
5

Svetlana EL34 4
5
5
5



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EL34 Reviews

Shuguang EL34-B - For many years no one would have believed that Chinese tube factories could turn out work of this quality. The construction of this tube is first class, with a well-supported plate structure that rests in a large straight bottle that tapers to a well finished brown base. These tubes represent a very solid piece of construction with almost no mechanical noise and an overall feeling of quality.
The sound is loud and clear with a very nice sonic range. Not excessive in tops, mids, or bass, they are accurately described as well balanced. The sample tested had no audible microphonics and an average background noise level. Harmonic content was rich, lending that pleasant "swirl" and sustain that guitar players crave.
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Sovtek EL34WXT - Sovtek has come a long way with this tube since the EL34G. Construction has been improved greatly reducing mechanical noise. Very good sound but not in the same range as the Svetlana. It seems as if the frequency response has been shifted toward the midrange band. Harmonics are rich and fairly balanced but the high end can get a bit bright. Great in a darker sounding amplifier.
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Svetlana EL34 - The Svetlana is the perfect tube for classic rock. The midrange is very pronounced and the high end is smooth. The bottom end response is not the best, but in a guitar amp it becomes a moot point. In the test amp the mids just rip through the mix. No guitar player is going to get lost in the mix using these bottles. These tubes deliver incredible crunch making them perfect for that ZZ Top, old EVH sound. Seven string down-strokers may not be as pleased because they don't have that crushing deep bottom end. (Note: the amp used for this review was done in a 100 watt Marshall JMP)
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S.E.D. EL34 ("C" Logo) - If you want one tube that will do anything the Svetlana is money well spent. There is ample bass response but it is firm and controlled. The mids are smooth and the top end shimmers. Nice swirling harmonic content. The construction of the tube is outstanding and I feel it contributes to the overall performance. Lots of clean headroom from this tube with a smooth transition into breakup. Probably great in home audio applications, but if you want raunch at lower volume levels keep reading.
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Tesla (JJ) E34L / EL34 - JJ is the new name for the Teslovak (Tesla) tube company. A good general purpose EL34. As previously mentioned, the sound is well balanced with tight bass response and great mids. Early on we had issues with mechanical noise however later stock has been much improved and noise is no longer a worry.
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Tube Reviews and all site contents Copyright © 1999 - 2003 thetubestore.com

 

[Brian HCM#1]

llkoolkeg and brian, pick out the pricier equipment in a double blind test and let's talk. standing in a sound room with the sales guy does NOT constitute such a test. yes, even if you close your eyes :nuts:

So how would you conduct a audio test? It really doesn't work in a noisy room.

 

[Toshi]

So how would you conduct a audio test? It really doesn't work in a noisy room.

i'd conduct it as a blind test, where you didn't know which system was playing. the salesman would not be in the buildling, let alone giving you the ol' reacharound

 

[H8R]

I copied this from TheTubeStore.com. Seems to answer questions about the EL34Ls. My amp guy used to use Sovtek tubes in my touring rigs (Marshall something or other, Bedrock and Mesa Boogie 50-cal).

Who did you tour with?

 

[lux]

Who did you tour with?

Punk/funk band from the Southeast called Johnny Quest. Back in the Late 80's early 90's.

Never made it out of the States like you guys, though. Lucky bastards.

 

[mrbigisbudgood]

<---Been using tube amplifiers for 15 years.

I'm not going to sift through all the crap in this thread so I'll ask......

What kind of amp is it?

What tube numbers go in it?

What kind of tone are you looking for?

Answer me, these questions three, and the recommendation, you shall see.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

i'd conduct it as a blind test, where you didn't know which system was playing. the salesman would not be in the buildling, let alone giving you the ol' reacharound

Kinda like listening with your eyes closed and the sales guy switching back and forth.

 

[=[Stinky]=]

I still have the original True sub, got it back in 1997, its the 11" cube with the 8" drivers. I want the 13" cube with the 10" drivers!!!!!!

Niice... Im rockin a 10" Velodyne 500 watt forward firing sub. Sounds excellent.. No imput on tubes. I jusgt beat on drums.

 

[mrbigisbudgood]

I read through all the crap in the thread.

"Hardness" is a term Groove Tubes came up with a few years ago to define the tubes breakup (distortion) point.

If you want a blusey tone, you know, the clean channel that grunts a little when you pick hard, you pick a lower hardness rating. 1-3

Most tube amp manufacturers are using tubes in the 4-7 category. You can get them to break up easy enough, but still get crystal cleans out of them.

7-10 take ALOT of driving to make them breakup.


Now, the type of tone your looking for will determine what tube you should get. I'd stay as far away from Groove Tube as I can. This time around, I think you should try JJ EL34, espically for overdriven/saturated tones, and I bet you'll like what you hear. Go to www.dougstubes.com, he's the man.

 

[llkoolkeg]

llkoolkeg and brian, pick out the pricier equipment in a double blind test and let's talk. standing in a sound room with the sales guy does NOT constitute such a test. yes, even if you close your eyes :nuts:

Easily. Perhaps you didn't notice in my earlier post, I was the salesguy for several years and not only sold the best, but owned the best and demoed the best whenever I felt like it. I used to order the goods on salesmans accommodation price and used to have quite the sound studio myself. Most of my home equipment you'd probably not even recognize the names of(McIntosh, Nakamichi,Carver, BSR, Design Acoustics, Klipsch, Denon, Harmon Kardon, etc.) . I sold all that stuff after college when I moved into a shady neighborhood(where thefts were common) and bought guns with the proceeds.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Easily. Perhaps you didn't notice in my earlier post, I was the salesguy for several years and not only sold the best, but owned the best and demoed the best whenever I felt like it. I used to order the goods on salesmans accommodation price and used to have quite the sound studio myself. Most of my home equipment you'd probably not even recognize the names of(McIntosh, Nakamichi,Carver, BSR, Design Acoustics, Klipsch, Denon, Harmon Kardon, etc.) . I sold all that stuff after college when I moved into a shady neighborhood(where thefts were common) and bought guns with the proceeds.

I sold my a/d/s speakers a few years ago and bought used 1985 Klipsch Forte I's It's my favorite Klipsch speaker.

 

[narlus]

Most of my home equipment you'd probably not even recognize the names of (McIntosh, Nakamichi,Carver, BSR, Design Acoustics, Klipsch, Denon, Harmon Kardon, etc.)

LL, i'd consider that stuff consumer electronics (w/ the exception of mcintosh; am not familiar w/ BSR or Design Acoustics), not the esoteric high end mumbo jumbo of stuff like california audio labs, creek, bryston, mark levinson, etc.

like most everything else, there are diminshing returns. i am not disputing the fact that a high end system will not sound good, just some of the claims about crap like oxygen-free copper connects, blah blah blah. do an ABX comparison and 0.01% of the public is likely to consistently hear a difference and correctly assign the most expensive option.

that said, i'm waiting for the day (20 years?) when my kids are done w/ college and i can drop some nice $$$ into my home system (if i still have any money left). until then, my 15 year old system (adcom, rotel, denon, a/d/s) will have to suffice.

 

[llkoolkeg]

LL, i'd consider that stuff consumer electronics (w/ the exception of mcintosh; am not familiar w/ BSR or Design Acoustics), not the esoteric high end mumbo jumbo of stuff like california audio labs, creek, bryston, mark levinson, etc.

like most everything else, there are diminshing returns. i am not disputing the fact that a high end system will not sound good, just some of the claims about crap like oxygen-free copper connects, blah blah blah. do an ABX comparison and 0.01% of the public is likely to consistently hear a difference and correctly assign the most expensive option.

that said, i'm waiting for the day (20 years?) when my kids are done w/ college and i can drop some nice $$$ into my home system (if i still have any money left). until then, my 15 year old system (adcom, rotel, denon, a/d/s) will have to suffice.

I listed the stuff that I bought, not the stuff I sold and auditioned. I had to buy on a budget even though it was at barely over cost. The equipment I bought was the stuff I liked the performance of and could actually afford. The really esoteric goods you listed were never an option at my layer in the social strata.
And what is wrong with your 15 year old system? Those are good products and better than the crap you'll find at what I think of and consider a consumer electronics store- Circuit City or Best Buy. Basically, when you are spending as much per component as the best complete system at Best Buy, you're probably buying decent stuff. The really best of the best equipment(like you're thinking of) my ear cannot reliably differentiate, as I have had only limited access to it.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Good God, I'm glad that I'm just content listening to music on whatever happens to be playing it..........

Hell - I even enjoyed some tunes on a boom-box whilst camping in Fruita this weekend!

-S.S.-

 

[narlus]

I listed the stuff that I bought, not the stuff I sold and auditioned. I had to buy on a budget even though it was at barely over cost. The equipment I bought was the stuff I liked the performance of and could actually afford. The really esoteric goods you listed were never an option at my layer in the social strata.

i think you made the right decision. i'm mainly talking about the super pricey stuff which gets discussed in hushed reverent overtones in mags like The Absolute Sound or Stereophile. again, i think the diminshing returns principle kicks in hard and fast wrt to the outer fringes of audiophile equipment. then again, maybe it was because too many live concerts blew out my incus, malleus, and stapes.

And what is wrong with your 15 year old system? Those are good products and better than the crap you'll find at what I think of and consider a consumer electronics store- Circuit City or Best Buy. Basically, when you are spending as much per component as the best complete system at Best Buy, you're probably buying decent stuff.

i totally agree. my system is still working great, and the only thing i've had to replace is the cd player and turntable cartridge. i'd never go to best buy for stereo goods; perhaps my use of the term consumer electronics was a red herring.

The really best of the best equipment(like you're thinking of) my ear cannot reliably differentiate, as I have had only limited access to it.

agreed.