[rockracing]

www.cyclingnews.com

fiddling with blood transfussions......ban 'em fo life.

 

[cycleman]

So who believes his excuse then? Not me!

 

[Westy]

Seems silly because what Tyler really needs to win is a set of training wheels.

 

[Heidi]

Hmmm, so you take out blood and then just put back in the red blood cells? I am not scientifically mature enough to understand these damn doping things.

Seems suspect to me though.

 

[mattv2099]

Hmmm, so you take out blood and then just put back in the red blood cells? I am not scientifically mature enough to understand these damn doping things.

Seems suspect to me though.

No. you draw some blood. Put it on chill. rest/recover/train until your system makes more blood to replace what you took out. Then reinject the whole schmere right before the big race. This was in vogue back in the day. I haven't heard anyone talk about this kind of doping since the late 90's... Bummer.

 

[Heidi]

No. you draw some blood. Put it on chill. rest/recover/train until your system makes more blood to replace what you took out. Then reinject the whole schmere right before the big race. This was in vogue back in the day. I haven't heard anyone talk about this kind of doping since the late 90's... Bummer.

Don't you have too much blood in your body then?

 

[Westy]

Don't you have too much blood in your body then?

Does the same thing as EPO, increases your hemocrit levels. Very dangerous if it gets too high, but if your level is naturaly low it is a good way to cheat and get yourself to the UCI acceptable level of 50 which is safe. It probably takes a lot of testing and Dr type management to do it safely.

Joe Lindsey has written some really good articles on doping, scary scary details.

http://www.mountainbike.com/community/article/1,4823,10181_621,00.html

 

[Wumpus]

Blood doping was first used in research experiments performed by Dr. Bjorn Ekblom of the Stockholm Institute of Gymnastics and Sports in 1972. It was called induced erythrocythemia, which means induced surplus of red blood cells. Since your red blood cells carry 99% of the oxygen in your blood, anything that increases the concentration of red blood cells can increase your endurance. Increasing the number of red blood cells also increases the oxygen carrying capacity of your blood which can help you to exercise longer. In his experiment, Dr. Ekblom removed a quart of blood from four human subjects. He separated the red blood cells and refrigerated them. After four weeks, enough time for the subjects to replenish their red blood cells, Dr. Ekblom injected the stored red blood cells back into the humans. The subjects were able to run up to 25 % longer than before the transfusion. Dr. Ekholm had not intended for his procedure to be used in competition. However, 18 years later, blood doping has become a fairly popular performance enhancing practice among competing athletes. Blood doping has been most often associated with endurance sports like cycling.

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

I'm just glad I was sitting down when I read that. I can't wait to hear about the follow-up to this one.
What I'm wondering is if this is a Team Phonak thing or if he picked that trick up from somebody *cough*6-TIMER*cough* else?

 

[mattv2099]

Don't you have too much blood in your body then?

nope. When bike racers peak they have more blood in their system than when they are doing base endurance work. Your vascular system isn't static like metal pipes. It can contract and expand a bunch.

 

[oldfart]

Except that in Hamilton's case they say it's homologous blood, meaning some one elses blood cells. The excuse he gives is that it was from a recent surgery where he received a transfusion. If so it will be easy enough to proove as there will be surgical records to verify. If not he'll be fired, suspended his gold in the Olympic TT taken away and at his age, career done? The red flags are certainly up, but I will wait for it to shake out before I judge.

 

[cycleman]

except these things are seldom that clear cut are they? He probably will have some kind of justification (although his latest statements don't seem to mention the surgery excuse and Phonak seem to be disputing the accuracy of the test). He's the type to keep denying it and since, as you say, he's not likely to comeback after a ban there's no sense in him admitting to it. We'll probably never know for sure, just as we won't about Armstrong. I think there have been some rumours about Hamilton before haven't there? - an old coach or doctor or somethign from a previous team? I wish we could somehow get an idea just how widespread it is - its easy to suspect everyone's at it.

 

[Joss DeWaele]

but I will wait for it to shake out before I judge.

I think that is the best idea. I like the whole, innocent-until-proven-guilty thing.

 

[cycleman]

I was thinking some more about this and it does seem a little odd. Even Jesus Manzano said he wouldn't do homologous transfusions - and he admitted to doing pretty much everything else. On the other hand, maybe if he was really desperate to finally win something after all his crashes maybe he'd do anything. I was a bit suspicious the way he disapeared for a bit after the Tour and was said to be concentrating on his time-trialing and then came back and won it. Maybe he was busy stoking his blood.

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

yeah, I was out doing trailwork today and was thinking about it as well. There's a press conference Wed. so we will be able to know more from that - I HOPE.

I hope this is just some weird coincidence/misunderstanding 'cuz Tyler is one of the nicest guys out there and does so much (MS Found, amongst others) for people.

 

[Heidi]

Some cool articles

http://www.stolenunderground.com/id68.html

http://www.stolenunderground.com/id61.html

 

[JRB]

MSNBC says this - as does the IOC

What about Phonak??? Is this the shortest suspension???

 

[Pegboy]

Ok, I got a question. I'm not a Armstrong basher, on the contrary I respect his drive and accomplishments BUT...Hamilton is suspected of receiving homologus blood(blood from someone else), but they clearly state that there is no way of detecting autologus blood(your own blood previously stored). They also say that the advantage of a homologus transfusion is that you do not suffer the side effects of having your own blood drawn in the previous weeks (which would effect competitions prior to a big event). So I have to wonder, would this be a reason for Armstrong not to compete in many events other than the TDF? It also seems that when he does he is sometimes beat by supposedly lesser riders, to which he expains it is only training for the big event. Am I reading into this too much?

 

[Repack]

Ok, I got a question. I'm not a Armstrong basher, on the contrary I respect his drive and accomplishments BUT...Hamilton is suspected of receiving homologus blood(blood from someone else), but they clearly state that there is no way of detecting autologus blood(your own blood previously stored). They also say that the advantage of a homologus transfusion is that you do not suffer the side effects of having your own blood drawn in the previous weeks (which would effect competitions prior to a big event). So I have to wonder, would this be a reason for Armstrong not to compete in many events other than the TDF? It also seems that when he does he is sometimes beat by supposedly lesser riders, to which he expains it is only training for the big event. Am I reading into this too much?

I think that I am also maybe reading into it too much and have my own grand conspiracy. Blood doping is an illegal medical activity. Given that it is illegal, it is likely not being done in hospitals. Also, the athlete's would likely not be carrying around containers if their blood with their names printed on them. It seems like many doping busts come as the result of someone elses mistake- like the Festina soigneur leaving stuff in his trunk. It is not that much of a stretch to imagine that Tyler (if he is guilty) was injected with the wrong blood.
Also, I believe that despite the fact that your vascular system is elastic, you cannot simply stuff more blood in. A friend of mine lost 1L of blood in a crash. I asked a neighbor/ER doctor how they determine how much you lost, and he said that they hook you up to an IV and let the blood drip in until your body can't take any more. I think that for blood doping they only put the red cells back in. I may be wrong b/c I am lazy and did not read all the attached articles.

But, just posted, Tyler will keep his gold. But the Vuelta thing is still pending I think.

 

[Hawkeye]

I would think that putting someone else blood in your body could be very dangerous. I thought the IOC and others had limits as to how much red cells you could have in a given amount of blood. And that is how they caught you doping?

I don't think this is actually an illegal practice because people get similar things done at blood clinics and hospitals all the time just not for sporting purposes.

 

[Wumpus]

I would think that putting someone else blood in your body could be very dangerous. I thought the IOC and others had limits as to how much red cells you could have in a given amount of blood. And that is how they caught you doping?

I don't think this is actually an illegal practice because people get similar things done at blood clinics and hospitals all the time just not for sporting purposes.

Getting a blood transfusion is not illegal, and done all the time, but blood doping is illegal for many(all?) sports.

They beat the hematocrit by either getting IV saline or drinking a bunch of water. You have to be very careful because elevated hematocrit levels can cause heart attacks.

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

Something else that I just thought about is the fact that he's always crashing, etc. Perhaps at some point, he lost enough blood to where he was given someone else's blood to replace what he lost.
Yeah, I know...that's kind of a grasp, but I don't feel it's beyond the unthinkable with his reputation for carnage.

I'll wait for the B-sample results before I REALLY draw any conclusions, but it sure isn't looking good right now.

 

[cycleman]

Ok, I got a question. I'm not a Armstrong basher, on the contrary I respect his drive and accomplishments BUT...Hamilton is suspected of receiving homologus blood(blood from someone else), but they clearly state that there is no way of detecting autologus blood(your own blood previously stored). They also say that the advantage of a homologus transfusion is that you do not suffer the side effects of having your own blood drawn in the previous weeks (which would effect competitions prior to a big event). So I have to wonder, would this be a reason for Armstrong not to compete in many events other than the TDF? It also seems that when he does he is sometimes beat by supposedly lesser riders, to which he expains it is only training for the big event. Am I reading into this too much?

I think this has crossed most people's minds before. All that dedication and attention to detail he's so famous for. I have to say that his words of encouragement to David Millar after he got caught sounded to me like "if you'd have come to us i'd have shown you how to do it properly and not get caught or risk your life". However, maybe he just uses legal methods like the high altitude bed thing.

Looks to me like Hamilton is very lucky to keep his medal. The 'B' test presumably only exists in case something goes wrong with the 'A' test like the samples get mixed up. But since in this case the Vuelta test has confirmed it I don't see that their can be any doubt about that. The scientists say that the inconclusive nature of the 'B' test is no reason to doubt the 'A' test.
I reckon Hamilton's just been stupid. Probably something to do with not having enough time between the Tour and the Olympics. Did he plan to do the Olympics until the Tour went wrong??

 

[cycleman]

Something else that I just thought about is the fact that he's always crashing, etc. Perhaps at some point, he lost enough blood to where he was given someone else's blood to replace what he lost.
Yeah, I know...that's kind of a grasp, but I don't feel it's beyond the unthinkable with his reputation for carnage.

I'll wait for the B-sample results before I REALLY draw any conclusions, but it sure isn't looking good right now.

this seemed to be what he was hinting at when the allegations were first announced. But he's dropped the idea. Would be easy enough to prove if he had. I admire your faith but seems desperate to me.

 

[cycleman]

MSNBC says this - as does the IOC

What about Phonak??? Is this the shortest suspension???

and what about Santiago Perez (Phonak)'s recent superhuman performances. There's a report about more positive's in the Vuelta but they're waiting to check the substances against medical exemptions - wouldn't be surprised if it included perez and valverde (Kelme).

 

[cycleman]

I think that I am also maybe reading into it too much and have my own grand conspiracy. Blood doping is an illegal medical activity. Given that it is illegal, it is likely not being done in hospitals. Also, the athlete's would likely not be carrying around containers if their blood with their names printed on them. It seems like many doping busts come as the result of someone elses mistake- like the Festina soigneur leaving stuff in his trunk. It is not that much of a stretch to imagine that Tyler (if he is guilty) was injected with the wrong blood.
Also, I believe that despite the fact that your vascular system is elastic, you cannot simply stuff more blood in. A friend of mine lost 1L of blood in a crash. I asked a neighbor/ER doctor how they determine how much you lost, and he said that they hook you up to an IV and let the blood drip in until your body can't take any more. I think that for blood doping they only put the red cells back in. I may be wrong b/c I am lazy and did not read all the attached articles.

But, just posted, Tyler will keep his gold. But the Vuelta thing is still pending I think.

wrong blood - I'm no doctor but I think that would be fairly serious and he wouldn't have been winning any gold medals unless the blood groups coincidentally matched.
and yeh, they only put the RBCs in not the plasma:
http://www.tc.cc.tx.us/~mstorey/beckham.html