[manhattanprjkt83]

Ok so im thinking about running hammerschmidt on my trail bike which is an 05 heckler with a 36 fork on it.

Big problem is that bad boy doesnt have any iscg tabs on the bb, dont necessarily want to buy a new frame considering i love the one i have and not sure if i will even dig the hammerschmidt system.

So how tough would it be to get a guy that knows what he is doing to tig on a spare e.13 adapter or something of that nature? How would i communicate to a guy that knows nothing about bikes the angle? Does it even matter what angle they are sitting at for the hammerschmidt?

From what i saw there is a good deal of adjustment. Thoughts?

 

[jsh191]

if i were purchasing an $800 half-of-a-drivetrain, i certainly wouldn't mess around with it. of course, that's me, and i don't have that kind of cash to throw around.....

i'm sure it's possible.... worth it? that's the question.

 

[illflip]

do you need ISCG tabs? they're making an AM version for hammershmidt, and a lot of AM frames dont have tabs, so i think they'll have a solution for that.

 

[jonKranked]

do you need ISCG tabs? they're making an AM version for hammershmidt, and a lot of AM frames dont have tabs, so i think they'll have a solution for that.

Nope, its gotta be welded on ISCG tabs. A lot AM frames don't have tabs? A lot of AM frames aren't compatible with the Hammershmidt.

 

[illflip]

meh...i could be wrong. i guess newer frames have tabs now.

 

[blahblahblah]

Do you really like the way the heckler pedals in the granny? Thats what it will feel like.


I think the hammerschiimdt would be nice on a lower pivot bike like an enduro.

 

[wrestlemania]

As an up an coming frame builder I would not recommend welding these tabs on after the fact. My main reason is that welding cause high amounts of stress in the area that is next to the weld known as the heat affected zone. These tabs are attached in an area that has critical welds around the bb. Fatiguing these welds could result in premature failure also I am sure it would void any kind of warranty or crash replacement. When the frame is built in the factory a heat treatment process/stress relieving is given to the frame which reduces the fatigue generated by the welding process. I am sure that truvative will be offering a solution for this so I would just wait, or better yet sounds like a good reason to sell the old and get something new. New bikes motivate me to ride more.

 

[Nagaredama]

Has anyone thought about the chain tug that will be present with a 22T ring? If your Heckler is remotely similar to my old AS-X, it pedaled like poo in the granny gear. The pedal feed back when hitting any bump in the granny was horrendous. My 06 Enduro works slight better in the granny but not much. When going down in the granny the cranks get yanked all over the place.

The HammerSchimidt wont' be fully usable until bike makers optimize their suspension to work well in a 22T ring. Most AM frame makers are trying to get their bikes to work well in a 32-36T ring.

 

[mandown]

werd, and double werd.

As an up an coming frame builder I would not recommend welding these tabs on after the fact. My main reason is that welding cause high amounts of stress in the area that is next to the weld known as the heat affected zone. These tabs are attached in an area that has critical welds around the bb. Fatiguing these welds could result in premature failure also I am sure it would void any kind of warranty or crash replacement. When the frame is built in the factory a heat treatment process/stress relieving is given to the frame which reduces the fatigue generated by the welding process. I am sure that truvative will be offering a solution for this so I would just wait, or better yet sounds like a good reason to sell the old and get something new. New bikes motivate me to ride more.

Has anyone thought about the chain tug that will be present with a 22T ring? If you Heckler is remotely similar to my old AS-X, it pedaled like poo in the granny gear. The pedal feed back when hitting any bump in the granny was horrendous. My 06 Enduro works slight better in the granny but not much. When going down in the granny the cranks get yanked all over the place.

The HammerSchimidt wont' be fully usable until bike makers optimize their suspension to work well in a 22T ring. Most AM frame makers are trying to get their bikes to work well in a 32-36T ring.

^^^ me thinks many are thinking about it, we just haven't seen much action on it yet.

 

[Nagaredama]

I would think a frame that is optimized to work with a 22T would feel like crap with a normal 22/32/42 or 24/36 front rings.. This seems to necessitate frame manufacturers to make 2 versions of bike. One for HS users and one for of us who are fine with a good ole FD.

 

[Sorgie]

I haven't really looked at the system too much, so sorry if this is a stupid question. Why couldn't you use an e13 adapter?

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

I haven't really looked at the system too much, so sorry if this is a stupid question. Why couldn't you use an e13 adapter?

That is my exact question, as for the heckler i love the single pivot for AM riding, and honestly i almost never pedal in granny, almost took my little ring off in favor of a single middle ring setup.

I guess i am looking for will it work and is the welding bad news for my frame...I doubt it will pedal differently but the clearance and simplicity is what im going after.

As for $800 cash on the drivetrain, im in the industry so i wont spend that much on it, and if it doesnt work i can always pull it off and sell or move to another rig.

 

[Sorgie]

I just looked a little more and all I can find is "tabs must be of a certain strength and located in the correct position". So is the welded recommendation because they don't trust people to get the orientation correct and give up on the product as "too hard to set up correctly"? Or is there something about it that would make the adapter rotate under load and that is where the "certain strength" requirement comes in for welded tabs?

 

[Nagaredama]

That is my exact question, as for the heckler i love the single pivot for AM riding, and honestly i almost never pedal in granny, almost took my little ring off in favor of a single middle ring setup.

Remember the suspension will behave like its in the granny 100% of time. As a test next time you start riding down switch to the granny and see how it feels.

Going from a 32 ring to a 22 ring on a 2005 Heckler will result in about 30% more pedal feedback. 27mm of chain growth at full travel with a 32Tvs 39mm with a 22T.

I think SRAM would have better off designing the HS around a 36T that reduces to 22T. Assuming that is possible.

 

[jonKranked]

I just looked a little more and all I can find is "tabs must be of a certain strength and located in the correct position". So is the welded recommendation because they don't trust people to get the orientation correct and give up on the product as "too hard to set up correctly"? Or is there something about it that would make the adapter rotate under load and that is where the "certain strength" requirement comes in for welded tabs?

It has nothing to do with the orientation. Its because of how the system works, and the ISCG tab is, more or less, now an integral part of the drivetrain (similar to a derailler hangar). From what I can gather about how the system works, a portion of the gearing needs to be stationary/fixed in relation to the frame, while a portion attached to the crank is in motion. The e-type ISCG tabs won't work, because they can spin around the BB with enough force.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

Remember the suspension will behave like its in the granny 100% of time. As a test next time you start riding down switch to the granny and see how it feels.

Going from a 32 ring to a 22 ring on a 2005 Heckler will result in about 30% more pedal feedback. 27mm of chain growth at full travel with a 32Tvs 39mm with a 22T.

I think SRAM would have better off designing the HS around a 36T that reduces to 22T. Assuming that is possible.

Ok i see where you are going with this, so the bike will effectively perform as it's in the 22t all the time? I guess i didnt think it would work that way if it was in a gear comparable to a 32? Am i incorrect?

this is starting to be a bummer

 

[jonKranked]

Ok i see where you are going with this, so the bike will effectively perform as it's in the 22t all the time? I guess i didnt think it would work that way if it was in a gear comparable to a 32? Am i incorrect?

this is starting to be a bummer

The Hammershmidt uses a single chainring. the internal mechanism of it, when engaged, basically makes the chainring spin more than once for a single crank stroke (360°). So yes, the suspension will work the same regardless of the gearing you are in, because the size of the front chain doesn't change - it just spins more.

 

[Nagaredama]

Ok i see where you are going with this, so the bike will effectively perform as it's in the 22t all the time? I guess i didnt think it would work that way if it was in a gear comparable to a 32? Am i incorrect?

this is starting to be a bummer

Yup, the suspension will perform as if the you're always in the 22T. While climbing it won't be as big of deal because you'll be going slow. Especially if the climb requires a 22t. Unfortunately once the trail heads down you'll be getting bumped all over the place.

I agree its a bummer. They should have done it the other way. A Sunday with a Gravity Dropper post would be the next AM machine.

 

[Nagaredama]

It has nothing to do with the orientation. Its because of how the system works, and the ISCG tab is, more or less, now an integral part of the drivetrain (similar to a derailler hangar). From what I can gather about how the system works, a portion of the gearing needs to be stationary/fixed in relation to the frame, while a portion attached to the crank is in motion. The e-type ISCG tabs won't work, because they can spin around the BB with enough force.

How about fabing up an ISCG adapter that bolts to the seat tube and sandwichs on the BB cup? That might prevent it from slipping. It also might put undue strain on the seat tube.

 

[jonKranked]

How about fabing up an ISCG adapter that bolts to the seat tube and sandwichs on the BB cup? That might prevent it from slipping. It also might put undue strain on the seat tube.

Yea I think that ultimately it would be too much for the seat tube. Besides, at that point you're talking redneck engineering

 

[DirtyMike]

I haven't really looked at the system too much, so sorry if this is a stupid question. Why couldn't you use an e13 adapter?

You cannot use an adapter on the HS system, you must face the tabs and BB together to have it work properly. They are working on expanding the system now.


Witht that said, A Proper tig weld would suffice fine.

 

[Windowlicker]

I don't think the weight of it is worth it. Looks cool though.

 

[DirtyMike]

Just to add, there is a little more to the setup of the HS other than just having ISCG tabs, go to the site, check out the setup, you will find that even though you have ISCG, you frame still might not be compatible. Its very Specific at this time how it must be oriented on the bike itself. There is a checker that comes with the unit, you put it into the ISCG tabs, and it MUST point at the rear axle of the bike, or it wont work correctly.





I got to demo one last week. I rode the version that is supposed to be the same as a 24/36. And I thought the same at first, it would always behave like it was in the 24, and It did not. It rode very well, and I was impressed with how it felt. Hammering downhill I had no problems with how the system operated, it was pretty damn flawless. Defently a nice step towards the future, but not one I am personally ready to make yet, seeing how the E13 DRS system works flawlessly already!!! That would be my personal suggestion to go with the Heckler

 

[wrestlemania]

from easton's web site, not sure this can be done proper after the fact. with out seeing the actual bb connections I am pretty sure you will be welding over one of the two connections most likely the down tube, not to say that you can't get a welder to do it. hey bender thinks he can hit a 100 foot drop, do you think he will at rampage?

 

[presslab]

The Schlumpf uses a tapered washer with ridges on it. Maybe something like that could work with the Hammerschmidt.

http://schlumpf.ch/sd_engl_einbau.htm

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

yeah after this thread im not ready to sacrifice the good riding nature of the bike for the latest and greatest...esp. since this thing will require welding, not a big fan of that.

I was hoping to get some serious clearance and clean up the bike a bit.

I am running 975 xtr cranks w/ and xtr/x.o shifter setup now which isn’t a bad setup ...prob stay with that till this thing matures.

thanks for the input everyone

 

[w00dy]

Moot point at this point in the conversation, but the arguement that it will screw your bike up because it runs a granny ring is totally baseless.

No matter what is going on with your drivetrain, the frame only sees forces at the bottom bracket and the rear axle. It's the low leverage ratio associated with a granny ring which makes some suspension designs act strangely. If you are in overdrive (36 tooth) mode it should operate as if you were running a normal middle ring.

PS- Tally up another vote against trying to weld onto your frame. You might be able to get it done right, but there're a lot of things working against you.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

damn you w00dy I trust your opinion on this one and it sounds like a good one for this.

As for welding I’m no frame builder but I cant see how tacking on an e.13 adapter would hurt anything structurally you know?

Heard shoe was slick as snot last weekend, thinking about doing another trip. What part of the world are you in right now?

 

[DirtyMike]

damn you w00dy I trust your opinion on this one and it sounds like a good one for this.

As for welding I’m no frame builder but I cant see how tacking on an e.13 adapter would hurt anything structurally you know?

Heard shoe was slick as snot last weekend, thinking about doing another trip. What part of the world are you in right now?

http://www.magicmechanics.com/#/freeride/

Check out the video on install and prep, then you will see why it wont work

 

[w00dy]

You could put a mount on there. The ISCG wedsite has a technical drawing telling you how it has to be positioned. But you'd have to get it nice and parallel with the edge of the BB. If you know a good machinist and welder it's certainly possible, but you can kiss any chance of a warrantee goodbye. How thick is the BB shell?

Edit: You'd def. have to chase out the BB threads after welding.

I'm in Syracuse, heading to Boston for Highland MTBPark and Sam Adams Oktoberfeast this weekend. After that I'll be in the NYC area for an undecided amount of time.

Definitely hit Snowshoe if you can. I was very surprised by how good the hill was on the shuttle/DH trail side. The freeride side was OK. Damn near unrideable in the wet, though.
I'll be making a trip there in the dry next summer if at all possible.

 

[buildyourown]

As for welding I’m no frame builder but I cant see how tacking on an e.13 adapter would hurt anything structurally you know?

Aluminum bikes are heat-treated after welding. Without it, the material will not reach it's full potential strength.
If you weld something on a completed frame, an area around the weld, size depends on weld intensity and time, will be reduced in strength.
Having a weaker than designed BB junction isn't a very good idea.

This depends on alloy a bit. 6000 series alum needs to be professionally heat-treated. 7005 alum can be done in you oven at home with a bit of work.

 

[pinkshirtphotos]

i want to do this with a 29er ss build. i just need the frame. thinking of testing it on a redline frame, or maybe a surly karate monkey frame

 

[HelmetFire]

I have a Marin '09 Quake and am installing a Hammerschmidt on it now. It has no ISCG tabs.

Welding is out of the question unless you are willing to strip the frame (remove all the paint), weld on the ISCG bracket, stress relieve, and then heat treat it back to the T6 condition (and repaint). Trust me it's not worth it.

I plan to machine an ISCG adapter that will be strong and accurate enough to do the job. My bracket will be held on with the BB as well as have a clamp that attaches to the seat tube. This is not a simple endeavor, but I have the resources to make it work.

For anyone who doesn't have a machine shop I would recommend they either get a frame with ISCG tabs, or hold off on the Hammerschmidt.

I'll post the results when I'm done.

 

[buckoW]

Aluminum bikes are heat-treated after welding. Without it, the material will not reach it's full potential strength.
If you weld something on a completed frame, an area around the weld, size depends on weld intensity and time, will be reduced in strength.
Having a weaker than designed BB junction isn't a very good idea.

This depends on alloy a bit. 6000 series alum needs to be professionally heat-treated. 7005 alum can be done in you oven at home with a bit of work.

I was going to say the same. If it is 7005 then you can do it but if it is 6000 then you need to find an oven big and hot enough to heat treat after welding (then you need to know how hot and how long). Last year we modded the bb area of a 7005 frame and had good results but my friend is a very good welder and he has an oven. I rode that frame (DH) for a couple months without any issues.

 

[Delimeat]

I know this guy who took a much loved and very well used frame to a good welder and had one of those beefy e.13 adapters tacked onto it. The welder didn't lay a massive bead all of the way around, but only did three small tacks. The guy had put an old B.B. in the frame to hold the adapter in place in the correct position as the job as being done. Afterwords he took it to a shop with the Hammerschmidt facing tools and had them clean everything up. The result was a nice flat surface, but he didn't factor in that to bring the shell back to the correct width would result in his chain line being offset by about 1.5 mm to the drive side due to the added width of the adapter... Thankfully this didn't seem to matter one bit. The guy then put a retarded amount of miles on the Hammerschmidt equipped bike with zero issues, even though he seems to 50/50 every single jump that he tries to clear. Keep in mind though that this is the same guy that is now on a new updated ISCG equipped (from the factory) frame and has had to hack about a 1/4 of his Hammerschmidt backing plate away to clear the new bike's drive side chain stay. I ride with this guy every time I ride and there has never been an issue with either the tacking job or the hacking job.

Long story short, it worked just fine. I'm pretty sure that every single frame builder and welder would tell someone not to do it, doesn't mean you have to listen though.

 

[w00dy]

Over the summer I saw a slick little hack that Jimmy Donahugh rigged up to put a drivetrain on Tammy's Superco.

He bought a big aluminum clamp the same size as the BB OD, drilled 3 holes in it, and bolted it on.

 

[SCARY]

I've done 3 of these without heat treating and have had zero problems.you do have to strip the area,and set it the way delimeat said.I wouldn't worry about the heat treating.I got "permission"from intense on one of them.