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what does "Ø of spoke hole" mean?

Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,084
14,760
where the trails are
Sorry if this is a dumb question.

I'm lacing up a Hadley 150mm rear hub to a Syncros DS32 rim (erd 537) and I must have fvcked up the spoke calculation.

Based on the numbers I 'thought' were correct, DT Swiss told me to use 258mm spokes. Now that the wheel is laced these spokes seem to be WAY too long.

I didn't save my work and don't remember what I entered for "Ø of spoke hole" when I checked. :mad:

Any :help:?

Now I have a box of DT Comp 2.0/1.8 spokes that are all too long. Think its worth having them cut down a few mm?

Damnit.
 
T

thad

Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
388
21
QBP calculator says 260mm, both sides, for 32hole, 3X. Did you build it three cross?

Are you using 12mm nipples? If you use the longer 16mm nipples, you need to shorten spokes by 4mm.

To answer your original question. It means diameter of spoke hole. You enter 2mm. Every normal hub has 2mm spoke holes.
 
Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,084
14,760
where the trails are
good morning.

OK so I proceeded with the 258's and I'm finding that they're getting close to tension far past where I thought there would be a problem. But, the spoke are visibly protruding through the nips inside the rim. I'd think there is less actual thread overlap now then if the spoke was a few mm shorter. In theory, wouldn't more thread overlap/mesh = a stronger build?
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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Nick said:
good morning.

OK so I proceeded with the 258's and I'm finding that they're getting close to tension far past where I thought there would be a problem. But, the spoke are visibly protruding through the nips inside the rim. I'd think there is less actual thread overlap now then if the spoke was a few mm shorter. In theory, wouldn't more thread overlap/mesh = a stronger build?
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On dh wheels, I usually go 1mm shorter than what the dt swiss calculator states. Poking through just a tiny bit at full tension isn't that big of a deal but if they're going through before you're fully there, you might want to grab some shorter ones keeping in mind they still haven't stretched yet. At least I probably would.

How did you get your hub measurements?
 
Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,084
14,760
where the trails are
I have them in my stand now and I'm almost comfortable with how tight I have them (I've never actually measured tension) but I agree with the stretching comment. I think I'm going to un-lace the wheel and have these cut down a few mm. A local shop can cut and thread spokes, and it will be cheaper than buying another box of spokes.

fvck! :mad:

kidwoo: I got the hub measurements from the Hadley website, naturally!

edit: I found what used...
pitch circle dia: 60mm l/r, left flange: 32.2mm, right flange: 27.8mm
which NOW when put into the calc gives me 260, so my 258's should be perfect. maybe I have the wrong erd for the rims.

Thanks guys.
 
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B

BmxConvert

Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
715
0
Longview, Washington
Nick said:
I have them in my stand now and I'm almost comfortable with how tight I have them (I've never actually measured tension) but I agree with the stretching comment. I think I'm going to un-lace the wheel and have these cut down a few mm. A local shop can cut and thread spokes, and it will be cheaper than buying another box of spokes.

fvck! :mad:

kidwoo: I got the hub measurements from the Hadley website, naturally!

edit: I found what used...
pitch circle dia: 60mm l/r, left flange: 32.2mm, right flange: 27.8mm
which NOW when put into the calc gives me 260, so my 258's should be perfect. maybe I have the wrong erd for the rims.

Thanks guys.
Click to expand...
Did you enter 559 for the ERD? 559 is a 26" BSD and could lead you to your's 258's being too long.
 
Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,084
14,760
where the trails are
LBS, for the win.

bmxconvert: no, I entered the correct measurement according to the mfg: 537mm.

I ended up un-lacing the wheels and taking the spokes down the road, where Aaron (?) cut an extra few mm of threads on all of them for me. (cool little die tool, btw) Took a pizza and beer break and then rebuilt the wheels.



Booyah.

Not sure where I went wrong with the measurements. :confused: That said, I think I'll have another beer.
 
Lelandjt

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,522
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Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Ahh, those rims! I built one last year and the threads bottomed out before there was any tension. REALLY frustrating cuz I couldn't figure out where I went wrong. Turns out the ERD supplied by Syncros is wrong. They really need to fix that. Once you get the right spokes they are great rims. If anyone else gets these, buy spokes 2-3mm shorter than DT's calculator says (when using the Syncros supplied ERD).
 
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Chaingangster

Chaingangster

Chimp
Nov 11, 2007
64
0
norcal
Salami said:
BULLSH!T


You are wrong. Do not spread wrong information!!!

You DO have to change the length of the spoke when using DT 16mm nipples.
Click to expand...
I'm wrong?
Can you explain why?
Is this based on firsthand experience?

Just because the Internet says doesn't make it so (remember, there's a wealth of wrong information;)).

Oh and, how many wheels have you built?
 
DirtyMike

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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Chaingangster said:
I'm wrong?
Can you explain why?
Is this based on firsthand experience?

Just because the Internet says doesn't make it so (remember, there's a wealth of wrong information;)).

Oh and, how many wheels have you built?
Click to expand...
I have built alot......... spoke length is indeed changed with the nipple length.
all but the prolock which si listed to use the 12mm to get the length as someone else already listed.....

This isnt Per internet, its per DT swiss, its per Barnetts, its per wheelsmith, its per guys who have been doing this with years of hands on........ Its due to were the threads are actually lcoated in the nipple.....













As to building wheels and getting the proper Spoeks the first time..... Nothing beats hand measuring the hub, the hoop, everything. Its tiem consuming but worth it. Hubs I have found to be pretty right on as to the sizing, but Damn it all when it comes to ERD on the hoops. Way too many times have I been reading straight off the Manf website what the ERD is only to meaure it myself to find it alot off.

My bet is that if thos wheel was measured by hand, you would have found the right spokes straight away.


And for the record, I will round up or down a bit according to what hoop I am building with..... DH wheels almost always shorten up by a mm.
 
Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,084
14,760
where the trails are
Lelandjt said:
Ahh, those rims! I built one last year and the threads bottomed out before there was any tension. REALLY frustrating cuz I couldn't figure out where I went wrong. Turns out the ERD supplied by Syncros is wrong. They really need to fix that. Once you get the right spokes they are great rims. If anyone else gets these, buy spokes 2-3mm shorter than DT's calculator says (when using the Syncros supplied ERD).
Click to expand...
Damn! I suspected as much. It was frustrating but fortunately getting those extra few mm of threads cut was enough to make it all work.

I think I'll write an email to Syncros about it. I've used their DS28 rims before and don't remember having the same problem.
 
xy9ine

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
thad said:
You're wrong.

Here's DT's spoke calc. Enter values for a wheel. Enter 12mm nipples. Now enter 16mm nipples. The spokes are 4mm shorter for 16mm.
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curious about the logic for that. imo, nipple length should be irrelevant - the important thing is that your spoke threads fully into the base of the nipple - ie, on the other side of the rim eyelet. if your spoke is 4mm shorter for a longer nipple, its likely you're only catching threads on the 'shaft' of the nipple, so you're going to have more stretch of the nipple itself, and breakage is much more likely.
 
Salami

Salami

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Jul 17, 2003
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xy9ine said:
curious about the logic for that. imo, nipple length should be irrelevant - the important thing is that your spoke threads fully into the base of the nipple - ie, on the other side of the rim eyelet. if your spoke is 4mm shorter for a longer nipple, its likely you're only catching threads on the 'shaft' of the nipple, so you're going to have more stretch of the nipple itself, and breakage is much more likely.
Click to expand...
You are not only catching the threads on the shaft of the nipple. If your spoke length is correct the spoke threads will be engaged properly in the nipple.

For all of the 12/16 doubters, go ahead and lace a set wheels with the spoke length you think is correct. When the wheel tensions too low and the spoke is bottomed out you will change your mind quickly.
 
Salami

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
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Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,084
14,760
where the trails are
Salami said:
..... go ahead and lace a set wheels with the spoke length you think is correct. When the wheel tensions too low and the spoke is bottomed out you will change your mind quickly.
Click to expand...
And though my post wasn't questioning the length of the nipples, this is exactly what happened.

At least I know that the local shop has a spoke die tool and their wrench knows how to use it!
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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xy9ine said:
curious about the logic for that. imo, nipple length should be irrelevant - the important thing is that your spoke threads fully into the base of the nipple - ie, on the other side of the rim eyelet. if your spoke is 4mm shorter for a longer nipple, its likely you're only catching threads on the 'shaft' of the nipple, so you're going to have more stretch of the nipple itself, and breakage is much more likely.
Click to expand...
The nipple threads sit further inside the circle of the rim with longer nipples. It's essentially like lacing a wheel with a smaller diameter rim. You'll need shorter spokes for them.

Those big long nipples aren't threaded all the way through AND it's not like spokes are threaded infinitely. With spokes too long (and 4mm definitely gets outside that range of 'acceptable') you'll bottom out on the threads of the spoke before the wheel is properly tensioned.

It matters and longer nipples DO make a difference.
 
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DirtyMike

DirtyMike

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Aug 8, 2005
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jonKranked said:
hey DirtyMike - what's the best way to measure ERD?
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Salami said:
You can use something like this: http://www.ride-this.com/index.php/bikealog-rimometer-ea.html

For UST rims cut the heads of two spokes so they are the exact same lengths. Thread nipples so are on tight. Measure the lengths of each and subtract the overlap distance from the total length of both when installed on the rim.



http://www.bikelab.co.nz/products/accessories/tools/wheelsmith-spoke-length-system-3.html
Click to expand...



Sorry I didnt see the reply Jon...... this here is it. Most of us call them the chopsticks. In the pic above, you measure the overlap between the two stick, and subtract it from 700mm <which is what the chopsticks measure up too end to end>.

Will get you really accurate measurements, which is why I really like measuring everything myself. You end up with a wheel that comes dished near perfect when you first even the nipples out.<given you are using the proper tool for that step as well>
 
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