[Tenchiro]

Dubya seems intent on going to war with Iraq no matter what. I saw this from the Associated Press;

(AP) - The Bush administration said Thursday it has solid evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, setting the stage for urging the U.N. Security Council to consider action against Saddam Hussein. The White House would not say what its evidence might be.

Hello!?! Hw come out government is so tight lipped about any "terrorism" evidence? Whether it be against an individual or an entire country. If they have evidence, then they better present their case! Don't just ask the world to trust you, especially when the guy in charge wants to kill people. Especially when those people are ill trained and poorly equipped and have no chance of surviving such an onslaught..

If the evidence does indeed exist, and is what they say it is then we should take some sort of action.

 

[patconnole]

Damn True, tell us why they won't tell us what the evidence is!

 

[Silver]

You think Damn True knows?

Why is he holding out on us?

 

[BurlyShirley]

We're on a need to know basis....and as the saying goes..."we dont need to know"

Seriously though.....In any investigation, facts are often withheld so as not to spoil the case. Perhaps not even Iraq knows what we know, and if it comes out, they would have a chance to know what to hide.

This is all hypothetical of course..but it could be a valid reason.

 

[Damn True]

I dunno.

But if I had to take a guess I would say Operational Security. Though if that were the case, mentioning that you know of "something" is a breach of the same.

Ideally this is how something like this oughta play out.

The CIA or NSA gets credible intel that Huessien has killer widgets in a warehouse in Al-stankhole, southern Iraq.

At this point they should not say anything to anybody.

The first step is to verify the intel via Elint (Electronic intel: intercepted comms, spysat etc), but preferably by Humint (Human intel: actual trustworthy person confirming by sight).

At this point they should not say anything to anybody.

The second step is to put covert forces on the ground nearby to continually verify that the killer widgets are still in place or to track their movement.

At this point they should not say anything to anybody.

The third and fourth steps are less concrete. Essentially there are two ways it could go down.

Notify, by secure means the UN Arms Inspection group and send them to the location post haste. The critical point here is that a global announcement of this has to be timed just prior to the inspection teams arrival. Reason being so that Iraq knows that the world knows the jig is up and they don't have time to move the killer widgets. That way the Arms Inspection Team can't "just dissapear" or be arrested under trumped up charges of spying. At this point the covert "Monitoring force" becomes a security team to guard the approach of, and cover the the inpsection team and ideally a few CNN cameras.
Then, the forces at the site blow the sh1t up and we get to watch the show on "Headline News". Then Hussein is caught with his pants down in front of the world and in accordance with the UN Agreement and with the backing of the rest of the planet that is sure to come with proof. The UN then removes Hussein from office and monitors a democratic election between individuals agreed upon by not only the Iraqi populace, but by the rest of the region.

...or.......

Don't say anything to anybody.

The covert monitoring force or CIA makes a call to Atlanta tipping CNN off to the location of the Killer Widgets. CNN shows up just as our guys bust down the doors. The Iraqis would not be able to resist the group because they would be doing so in front of the world. We find the Killer Widgets, force Hussein to admit he has the stuff and in accordance with the UN agreement etc etc.

IMHO


At any rate, telling the world that we know "something" is kinda foolish.

I have never said that I agree with EVERYTHING this administration does.

 

[fourgivn1]

Uh....dumb question for you. (Not intended to be rude.)

If you are aware of the fact that they are PROBABLY (we don't know for sure, but it's a safe bet) not revealing the evidence/sources/reasons for OPSEC reasons, why fuss about it?

Unless, of course, you're fussing about the fact that they essentially said "Ahah!! We have proof!! But we're not telling....just trust us. That's another story. I can EASILY understand not revealing info for OPSEC reasons, being as I worked in the shop that ran the systems that provided the elint for our IS's.

Edit: Just realized that the person who initiated this post, and Damn True, are not, in fact, the same person.

So ignore the entire post. Where's my coffee???

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
We're on a need to know basis....and as the saying goes..."we dont need to know"

Seriously though.....In any investigation, facts are often withheld so as not to spoil the case. Perhaps not even Iraq knows what we know, and if it comes out, they would have a chance to know what to hide.

This is all hypothetical of course..but it could be a valid reason.

If some one wants my support for a war than I consider myself on the need to know list.

As fourgiven says if they are prepared to say they have evidence then many of the reasons for not revealing it are gone, too many lies have been told by governments to start wars in the past for me to believe them straight off...

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by fluff
If some one wants my support for a war than I consider myself on the need to know list.

I'll let Dubya know and I'm sure he'll get right back to you.

As fourgiven says if they are prepared to say they have evidence then many of the reasons for not revealing it are gone, too many lies have been told by governments to start wars in the past for me to believe them straight off...

I agree. I DO have to go on record, in response to another post by you, and say that I don't necessarily believe that Dubya is completely responsible for his warmongering image. I personally would rather have someone in office who needed to be restrained by the likes of people such as Colin Powell and others, who remained true to their convictions (for the most part) than have someone like Gore in office.

 

[fluff]

I had a a frightening thought the other day.

For a long time I have seen politicians as self-serving, cynical, manipulative liars but perhaps such as Dubya and our own beloved leader, Tony do really believe they are acting in our best interests.

Perhaps lining their own pockets is just an inevitable burden they have to bear as consequence of taking care of those less gifted than themselves..

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by fluff
I had a a frightening thought the other day.

For a long time I have seen politicians as self-serving, cynical, manipulative liars but perhaps such as Dubya and our own beloved leader, Tony do really believe they are acting in our best interests.

See, I think they do. This doesn't mean they're always right. I think Dubya makes a better prez than Gore would have made, but believe you me, this does NOT mean I take no issue with some of the things Dubya does. I compare everything to that 'Biblical filter' of mine A perfect example is when Dubya went into a Muslim mosque the other day and praised the morals of the Muslim faith. Now, I'm not saying that they do not have any, and I also understand that as the President he sort of has to do stuff like that. But as a selff-professed Bible-believing Christian, what he did just sort of doesn't sit right.

Perhaps lining their own pockets is just an inevitable burden they have to bear as consequence of taking care of those less gifted than themselves..

Or less 'edumacated' in Dubya's case.

 

[eric strt6]

Kind of reminds me of a certain US Senator in the 1950's
{parahrasing}
"I have here in my hands a list of Communist sympathisers working in the State Department" not that he ever showed the list or that there was anything to back it up. Seems to me that GWB is taking us back to yesteryear back to the days of the [dis] Honorable Sen. Joseph McCarthy

This scares the crap out of me.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
See, I think they do. This doesn't mean they're always right. I think Dubya makes a better prez than Gore would have made, but believe you me, this does NOT mean I take no issue with some of the things Dubya does. I compare everything to that 'Biblical filter' of mine A perfect example is when Dubya went into a Muslim mosque the other day and praised the morals of the Muslim faith. Now, I'm not saying that they do not have any, and I also understand that as the President he sort of has to do stuff like that. But as a selff-professed Bible-believing Christian, what he did just sort of doesn't sit right.

This is starting to get interesting...

From your standpoint, but ignoring the different faith impasse, what is it about the morals of Islam you object to. Bear in mind that common perceptions of Christian precepts may be very distorted from an Islamic viewpoint....

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by fluff
If some one wants my support for a war than I consider myself on the need to know list.

Well, you aren't. Sorry, get used to it.

Operational Security.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Damn True
Well, you aren't. Sorry, get used to it.

Operational Security.

Then I remain opposed to killing people on the word of the the oil-backed US government.

It really is that simple for me.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by fluff
Then I remain opposed to killing people on the word of the the oil-backed US government.

It really is that simple for me.

Simple is easy.

I'm sure when it no longer puts American lives at risk to do so the information will hit the street.

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by fluff
This is starting to get interesting...

From your standpoint, but ignoring the different faith impasse, what is it about the morals of Islam you object to. Bear in mind that common perceptions of Christian precepts may be very distorted from an Islamic viewpoint....

But ignoring the different faith impasse? That's the entire reason I object to it, unless you want me to separate my morals from my faith. To a degree that can be done, but considering pretty much ALL my morals are derived or based on my faith, I can't do that.

And yeah, I know that may be distorted from an Islamic viewpoint. They have the luxury of seeing it that way, just as I have the luxury of seeing things from a Christian viewpoint. I don't think these things because "we're better." I think them because I'm Christian. Maybe if I had said "what he did just didn't sit right" and then added the words "with me" it might have sounded better.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
But ignoring the different faith impasse? That's the entire reason I object to it, unless you want me to separate my morals from my faith. To a degree that can be done, but considering pretty much ALL my morals are derived or based on my faith, I can't do that.

And yeah, I know that may be distorted from an Islamic viewpoint. They have the luxury of seeing it that way, just as I have the luxury of seeing things from a Christian viewpoint. I don't think these things because "we're better." I think them because I'm Christian. Maybe if I had said "what he did just didn't sit right" and then added the words "with me" it might have sounded better.

I'm only asking which Islamic morals you disagree with....

What are they??

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by fluff
If some one wants my support for a war than I consider myself on the need to know list.

As fourgiven says if they are prepared to say they have evidence then many of the reasons for not revealing it are gone, too many lies have been told by governments to start wars in the past for me to believe them straight off...

Fuff - you are on my list. As a citizen of my favorite lap dog country I feel you have a right to know, so...as soon as it hits CNN I'll PM you.

BTW - We don't really want your support, Tont's is enough for now.

 

[ummbikes]

Fluff. It's a shades of grey, not black and white issue. We have access to a lot of information, but not all of it. Is that taking away from fredom of speech? No. Freedom of speech ends at the point where my military serving friends lives would be more threatened by the information being out. If you have a great desire to know the details, join your army, qualify for intelligence, train, put your ass on the line, and then you will be privvy to the knowledge.

That said, I am curious too, what if any information shrub has about Hussain's toys...

Peace

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by fluff
I'm only asking which Islamic morals you disagree with....
What are they??

You want me to make a list of exactly which Islamic morals (or, better put, beliefs) I disagree with. I don't exactly have loads of time to list them right now. (In all actuality, I really don't....I'm leaving in an hour for my Christmas leave period...going to Arkansas to visit the parents.) When I do get the chance, I will post them.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by fluff
I'm only asking which Islamic morals you disagree with....

What are they??

Some Christains are ignorant tools who use the bible as a blinder to the rest of the world. Of course other religious extremists of different faiths are guilty of the same offense and therefore must fry at the hands of our superior military power. You are either with us or against us - to fry or not to fry - that is your question.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
You want me to make a list of exactly which Islamic morals (or, better put, beliefs) I disagree with. I don't exactly have loads of time to list them right now. (In all actuality, I really don't....I'm leaving in an hour for my Christmas leave period...going to Arkansas to visit the parents.) When I do get the chance, I will post them.

LAME!!! You just need time to do the research to back up what you just wrote!!!

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Some Christains are ignorant tools who use the bible as a blinder to the rest of the world.

Was packing my bags and saw the message window pop up.....I REALLY hope you aren't referring to me. I get real tired of being called a 'jerk' and a 'tool' and 'stupid' and any other amount of names simply because I remain true and committed to what I believe in.

In a nutshell, there are many morals and beliefs that the Islamic faith holds that are the same as, or closely parallel, other religious faiths' beliefs or tenets, and there are also morals and beliefs that the Islamic faith holds that are in opposition to what others hold. The same can be said of almost any other religion.

It just so happens that I'm Christian, and so therefore I am opposed to morals and beliefs that are at odds with what the Christian faith holds to be true.

Does this mean I denounce all others' beliefs, or say they are stupid for believing in them? No. Does it mean that I think they should not have the right to believe in them? Of course not. But as a Christian I can do no other, than to believe what what the Word of God says is the ultimate truth. If people don't like it, then so what? I'll live.

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
LAME!!! You just need time to do the research to back up what you just wrote!!!

Actually I really AM leaving in about an hour or two to drive to Arkansas to visit my parents. The only things I got left to do is pack my bags, throw my wife's stuff in the back of the truck, and feed the kitties.

And oh yeah, research and compile a list. In all seriousness, some of the things I am opposed to are obvious, like the charge of the Quran to its followers to kill infidels. Some are not so obvious, but I don't have them all memorized, so yeah, I WILL have to do a tad bit of research.

 

[Serial Midget]

Yikes - that's what I get for skimming - I thought I was responding to FLUFF - whom I like to dog. I do stand by what I wrote but I apologize if it appeared to be directed at you. The message was actually intended as sarcasm. SM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
Was packing my bags and saw the message window pop up.....I REALLY hope you aren't referring to me. I get real tired of being called a 'jerk' and a 'tool' and 'stupid' and any other amount of names simply because I remain true and committed to what I believe in.

In a nutshell, there are many morals and beliefs that the Islamic faith holds that are the same as, or closely parallel, other religious faiths' beliefs or tenets, and there are also morals and beliefs that the Islamic faith holds that are in opposition to what others hold. The same can be said of almost any other religion.

It just so happens that I'm Christian, and so therefore I am opposed to morals and beliefs that are at odds with what the Christian faith holds to be true.

Does this mean I denounce all others' beliefs, or say they are stupid for believing in them? No. Does it mean that I think they should not have the right to believe in them? Of course not. But as a Christian I can do no other, than to believe what what the Word of God says is the ultimate truth. If people don't like it, then so what? I'll live.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Yikes - that's what I get for skimming - I thought I was responding to FLUFF - whom I like to dog. I do stand by what I wrote but I apologize if it appeared to be directed at you. The message was actually intended as sarcasm. SM

But you wouldn't have apologised to me, eh?

As for the black & white / grey thang..

..ah, sod it. We can argue until the cows come home and it'll make sod all difference. I'm off to start a coup after which I will install myself as a benevolent, omniscient dictator and take over the world!

Until then I'll just whinge and carp like the limey lapdog I am.

A new question though...

In time all great powers fall, Persia, Greece, Rome.. how will the end come about for the modern US Empire, from within or without?

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
Actually I really AM leaving in about an hour or two to drive to Arkansas to visit my parents. The only things I got left to do is pack my bags, throw my wife's stuff in the back of the truck, and feed the kitties.

Have a safe trip.

 

[Serial Midget]

Hehehehehe Sorry... no I would not. I like dogging you very much - you may be a limey lap dog but you're a good sport!

Jeeze - don't give up so easily... do your research - the bunny man will be back on Monday.

Originally posted by fluff
But you wouldn't have apologised to me, eh?

As for the black & white / grey thang..

..ah, sod it. We can argue until the cows come home and it'll make sod all difference. I'm off to start a coup after which I will install myself as a benevolent, omniscient dictator and take over the world!

Until then I'll just whinge and carp like the limey lapdog I am.

A new question though...

In time all great powers fall, Persia, Greece, Rome.. how will the end come about for the modern US Empire, from within or without?

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Hehehehehe Sorry... no I would not. I like dogging you very much - you may be a limey lap dog but you're a good sport!

Jeeze - don't give up so easily... do your research - the bunny man will be back on Monday.

Bah, you're all mouth and no trousers, answer the question man, how will you guys fall from the top?

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by fluff
Bah, you're all mouth and no trousers, answer the question man, how will you guys fall from the top?

Like the great powers before us, I think when our day is done it will not be dramatic at all, just a slow decline into 2nd rate status due to ecomomic and military misadventure. Oil is certain to be a part of it - that is why we will fight for it. Our lap dog countries are very dependent on oil resources as well so... for the foreseeable future you are either with us or against us.

 

[fourgivn1]

I think circus midgets will play a big part in the downfall of the US of A.

In all honesty I believe eventually the rest of the world will sort of 'take arms' against us...sort of form a superpower of 'their' own. I have no clue how, but that's what I think.

As far as posts go, I will be in Arkansas on Sunday and will prob'ly post then.

Check this out!! I just bought a Dodge Ram 1500 regular cab about a month ago, and I just discovered that I can fit 2 suitcases, a small cooler AND my bookbag behind the seats in the truck and NOT have to move the seats!

Well I'm off guys. You'll have to do without my intolerant Christian views for a day or two.