Whats so awesome about Avy's
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Athough I don't have Avalanche Suspension on my mountain bike...yet... I would like to get it. I have had my fork on my KTM SX125 dirtbike revalved and what not by C-Cycle Suspension (Avalanche) and it works great. I can say that I would rather have a Avalanche up front than my Shiver but as for right now the Shiver is working out just fine... Currently waiting for parts to do a complete rebuild on it though before this season.
Edit:I tried to upload a photo or two but what gives with the 100mb file size... that's tiny photos...
Edit:I tried to upload a photo or two but what gives with the 100mb file size... that's tiny photos...
overdamping is technically a bad thing...meaning you have more damping than needed which results in poor responsiveness. Of course feel and reality arent necessarily congruent. Oh and mr. Narlus below has a clue about menickaziz said:Do you even ride bikes?
Avys feel "overdamped" like mx shocks... how is this bad?
so? if Stratos can make it for cheaper what difference does it make? even if it was proven that they were exact replicas tolerances and all, i bet the Avy cultists would still harp on how much better they are :devil:Narlus said:zed, i know yr trolling here (), but the avy/el jefe evolution isn't exactly a chicken and egg situation...avy was on the market several years before the Me-Too product rolled out of stratos...
fun fact: Stratos actually encourages you to play with the shims, so ElHefe owners are not surprisingly more self-actualised people
lets clear this **** up right now. I have owned many different types of shocks out there and when I picked up my Avy It felt like nothing else on the market. The plushness and anti bottoming resistance was second to none and still is.
As for the fork. I just picked mine up this year and have found that it is the BEST performing fork I have ever ridden! I have owned, Shivers, Monsters, Stratos's, White brothers 2.0's, and ridden Boxxers, Dorados, and anything else you can imagine and NOTHING comes minutely, close to the performance of this fork. The adjustabliluty is better than youre Dorado, the travel is impeccable, and to add to quality, the steerer tube pinch bolt on the upper crown is located in the inside so no smacking youre knee off it anymore. In case you are wondering, I have the DHF Ti 8 and it has been nothing but good things. Because it uses SHOWA seals, they can be serviced anywhere, anytime. They also have a neat little feature which is an anti bottoming cone. WHY THE HELL HASN"T MTB COMPANIES GOTTEN INTO THESE I WILL NEVER KNOW! my bar spins in my thomson before the fork bottoms! They are also completely revalveable and all the pinch bolts are 5mm stanard. This isnt an important feature but is saves on looking for the right keys. my fork also weighs in at 8.5 lbs for all the weight guys. Get an Avalanche and you will never ride another fork ever again.
As for the fork. I just picked mine up this year and have found that it is the BEST performing fork I have ever ridden! I have owned, Shivers, Monsters, Stratos's, White brothers 2.0's, and ridden Boxxers, Dorados, and anything else you can imagine and NOTHING comes minutely, close to the performance of this fork. The adjustabliluty is better than youre Dorado, the travel is impeccable, and to add to quality, the steerer tube pinch bolt on the upper crown is located in the inside so no smacking youre knee off it anymore. In case you are wondering, I have the DHF Ti 8 and it has been nothing but good things. Because it uses SHOWA seals, they can be serviced anywhere, anytime. They also have a neat little feature which is an anti bottoming cone. WHY THE HELL HASN"T MTB COMPANIES GOTTEN INTO THESE I WILL NEVER KNOW! my bar spins in my thomson before the fork bottoms! They are also completely revalveable and all the pinch bolts are 5mm stanard. This isnt an important feature but is saves on looking for the right keys. my fork also weighs in at 8.5 lbs for all the weight guys. Get an Avalanche and you will never ride another fork ever again.
Rip said:
What kind of shock and fork are you riding on what frame ?
I will second that 100% !!! :love:SuPaFlY said:
No...but they may not know what they are doing !zedro said:overdamping is technically a bad thing...meaning you have more damping than needed which results in poor responsiveness. Of course feel and reality arent necessarily congruent. Oh and mr. Narlus below has a clue about me
so? if Stratos can make it for cheaper what difference does it make? even if it was proven that they were exact replicas tolerances and all, i bet the Avy cultists would still harp on how much better they are :devil:
fun fact: Stratos actually encourages you to play with the shims, so ElHefe owners are not surprisingly more self-actualised people
These threads are getting tired. Can we stop doing this, please?
I had an Avy DHS and liked it fine. It was a big step up from the Vanilla RC I had on that bike before. I now have a Pushed RC on a different frame and I don't think I'd trade it for an Avalanche. Hate on people who say it from experience or not, but my Avy was overdamped and it negatively affected the ride quality. Most of them that I've felt are like this. It was awesome on big hits and high speed but at lower speeds and with small and medium bumps, it was not so hot.
I had an Avy DHS and liked it fine. It was a big step up from the Vanilla RC I had on that bike before. I now have a Pushed RC on a different frame and I don't think I'd trade it for an Avalanche. Hate on people who say it from experience or not, but my Avy was overdamped and it negatively affected the ride quality. Most of them that I've felt are like this. It was awesome on big hits and high speed but at lower speeds and with small and medium bumps, it was not so hot.
Would it still be over damped if you turned down the compression ?
i think that an avy is a hucker shock. great for big hits but not so great on lil stuff
'custom tuned' Avy....... Craig custom tunes every Avy shock to feel the same though, an over damped, hucker shock.
My friend, "Phil", ordered an Avy specifically for race purposes and wanted a lively active shock that was supple. He's a light guy, well under 150 lbs. What he got was an overdamped shock that was not the butter he wanted. Two trips to the east coast never resolved it.
Craig basically refused to tune it to Phil's needs, thats great custom tuning.
So flame away you Avy cheerleaders. Tout tunability dependant on an individual who won't give you what you want, only what he thinks you need. Pay more for that? Never. :eviltongu
My friend, "Phil", ordered an Avy specifically for race purposes and wanted a lively active shock that was supple. He's a light guy, well under 150 lbs. What he got was an overdamped shock that was not the butter he wanted. Two trips to the east coast never resolved it.
Craig basically refused to tune it to Phil's needs, thats great custom tuning.
So flame away you Avy cheerleaders. Tout tunability dependant on an individual who won't give you what you want, only what he thinks you need. Pay more for that? Never. :eviltongu
Well, - I got what I wanted so I am quite satisfied !!! By the way...it is interesting that you think the shock is over damped because if I at my shock turn down the compression I get a very lively shock......then, again, - that should according to you not be possible since all the shocks are custom tuned to be over damped to each rider.....right ??? You do know there is a compression adjuster on that shock, right???
I run a 500 lb spring on my Romic and I think a 550 lb would be better. As for the Avy, I run a 450 and it feels like I hardly use any travel on drops but it feels sooo smooth.
The main reasons I love Avy is reliability, custom tuned, and bottomless feel. I did have to send it back right when I got it to get it revalved. It was free since I had just bought it.
Two short stories of why my Avy rocks;
One time I dropped off a 8+ foot drop and missed the tranny and landed on completely flat ground just left of the tranny. The Avy felt so smooth I couldn't believe it. People standing at the bottom couldn't believe I road away unhurt.
Another time I was following a buddy on a new trail. There was a rock drop in the trail that ended up being a 6+ foot drop to flat.... well the landing was even slightly UPHILL. We both went off the drop. He said he bottomed out his bike so hard and it hurt his legs and back. I dropped off it like nothing and didn't think anything about it. The Avy just ate it up.
I know if I had been running the Romic I would have been a hurtin unit in both cases. I really believe the Avy is a superior shock for drops and all around riding. There may be better shock for racing but for all around DH/FR/trail riding... there is none better. The thing even climbs really well. I LOVE only have 2 adjustments too. The shock may not be for everyone. Some people like adjustments. I dont.
The main reasons I love Avy is reliability, custom tuned, and bottomless feel. I did have to send it back right when I got it to get it revalved. It was free since I had just bought it.
Two short stories of why my Avy rocks;
One time I dropped off a 8+ foot drop and missed the tranny and landed on completely flat ground just left of the tranny. The Avy felt so smooth I couldn't believe it. People standing at the bottom couldn't believe I road away unhurt.
Another time I was following a buddy on a new trail. There was a rock drop in the trail that ended up being a 6+ foot drop to flat.... well the landing was even slightly UPHILL. We both went off the drop. He said he bottomed out his bike so hard and it hurt his legs and back. I dropped off it like nothing and didn't think anything about it. The Avy just ate it up.
I know if I had been running the Romic I would have been a hurtin unit in both cases. I really believe the Avy is a superior shock for drops and all around riding. There may be better shock for racing but for all around DH/FR/trail riding... there is none better. The thing even climbs really well. I LOVE only have 2 adjustments too. The shock may not be for everyone. Some people like adjustments. I dont.
Kanter said:
Exactly !!!!
Zark said:
get the compression adjuster !
A big part of it is the confirmation bias. People spend so much on their stuff, it better be awesome or else they might feel like a fool.
I'm sure it's great gear though.
I'm sure it's great gear though.
quick question, how many shims does the El Jefe have?zedro said:overdamping is technically a bad thing...meaning you have more damping than needed which results in poor responsiveness. Of course feel and reality arent necessarily congruent. Oh and mr. Narlus below has a clue about me
so? if Stratos can make it for cheaper what difference does it make? even if it was proven that they were exact replicas tolerances and all, i bet the Avy cultists would still harp on how much better they are :devil:
lovebunny said:
you know something, thats really weird cause the last time i checked (hhmmm Innerleithen this afternoon) my Avy was setup with very little compression damping making it stick to the ground (over big AND small hits) like glue. Nope definitely not a "hucker shock"Zark said:
and how can you say that the Avy is a hucker shock when you haven't even tried one?
Yes. I had the compression adjustable model. I played with that and the rebound but neither adjustment had much range. Admittedly, I never sent it in for a revalve, which could have helped. I never had a huge problem with Avalanche service or performance, I just prefer the feel of other shocks.seismic said:
"Advantages over other shocks, i.e. Fox RC as an example:
Larger shock body and piston 30 mm vs 23.5 mm, 63% more area to create more damping. Both are Type III hard coated with teflon coating for wear resistance and reduced friction.
Twice the oil volume to reduce shock fade and oil wear.
Larger shaft 12.5 mm (.492") vs 9.53 mm (.375") 3 times stronger, also displaces 72% more oil which will create more damping.
5 mm wide PTFE Carbon filled piston ring energized by buna N o-ring for improved sealing with less friction as compared to 2 mm plain split PTFE with no o-ring.
Progressive rebound and compression valving as compared to 3 or 4 shims.
Top out bumper and oil lock reduce rebound top out vs none.
Shaft anti-bottoming shape-factor polyurethane bumper and cup vs rubber stopper.
Shaft and dust seals are from MX bikes pressure and spring loaded type as compared to lip and o-rings.
9 mm ID shims as compared to 6 mm.
Larger remote reservoir to reduce nitrogen pressure at full stroke.
Frictionless Bladder to seperate nitrogen from oil as compared to a floating piston which can resist movement at high shock pressures during high speed hits.
Schrader charging connection vs needle type.
Can be rebuilt by any MX suspension shop with Showa shaft seals.
Optional spacers and bottom eye lengths for adapting to other frames.
Remote reservoir gives designers more options for frame and linkage.
Stainless steel bearing bushings with intergral dust seals on each eye as compared to aluminum with no dust seals.
Both shocks use what is called common bleed rebound adjusters, i.e. oil can pass thru the adjuster on both the compression and rebound stroke. Therefore, when you slow the rebound down you also increase the compression damping. This affect can be undesirable if too much rebound is used.
Our valving and piston designs are modeled after MX style shocks which use a progressive 2 stage valving stack and we do not rely on small hole pistons which constrict the oil flow to create damping i.e. too much damping (hydraulic lock) can occur in this type of design during high shaft speeds.
Fox shocks rely on valve trapping (limited valve travel) to resist big hits (this is not progessive but more like a light switch, on or off)
A progressive valve stack may have 3 to 5 low speed shims a transition or crossover shim or shims, and a tapered series of shims for the mid and high speed valving. This type of stack improves small bump performance while resisting larger hits, and blows off in the event of a high shaft speed hit. The piston design allows enough flow so hydraulic lock (choke flow) does not occur."
obviously this doesn't take into account the current crop of new shocks but it still give a pretty good idea of whats going on
Larger shock body and piston 30 mm vs 23.5 mm, 63% more area to create more damping. Both are Type III hard coated with teflon coating for wear resistance and reduced friction.
Twice the oil volume to reduce shock fade and oil wear.
Larger shaft 12.5 mm (.492") vs 9.53 mm (.375") 3 times stronger, also displaces 72% more oil which will create more damping.
5 mm wide PTFE Carbon filled piston ring energized by buna N o-ring for improved sealing with less friction as compared to 2 mm plain split PTFE with no o-ring.
Progressive rebound and compression valving as compared to 3 or 4 shims.
Top out bumper and oil lock reduce rebound top out vs none.
Shaft anti-bottoming shape-factor polyurethane bumper and cup vs rubber stopper.
Shaft and dust seals are from MX bikes pressure and spring loaded type as compared to lip and o-rings.
9 mm ID shims as compared to 6 mm.
Larger remote reservoir to reduce nitrogen pressure at full stroke.
Frictionless Bladder to seperate nitrogen from oil as compared to a floating piston which can resist movement at high shock pressures during high speed hits.
Schrader charging connection vs needle type.
Can be rebuilt by any MX suspension shop with Showa shaft seals.
Optional spacers and bottom eye lengths for adapting to other frames.
Remote reservoir gives designers more options for frame and linkage.
Stainless steel bearing bushings with intergral dust seals on each eye as compared to aluminum with no dust seals.
Both shocks use what is called common bleed rebound adjusters, i.e. oil can pass thru the adjuster on both the compression and rebound stroke. Therefore, when you slow the rebound down you also increase the compression damping. This affect can be undesirable if too much rebound is used.
Our valving and piston designs are modeled after MX style shocks which use a progressive 2 stage valving stack and we do not rely on small hole pistons which constrict the oil flow to create damping i.e. too much damping (hydraulic lock) can occur in this type of design during high shaft speeds.
Fox shocks rely on valve trapping (limited valve travel) to resist big hits (this is not progessive but more like a light switch, on or off)
A progressive valve stack may have 3 to 5 low speed shims a transition or crossover shim or shims, and a tapered series of shims for the mid and high speed valving. This type of stack improves small bump performance while resisting larger hits, and blows off in the event of a high shaft speed hit. The piston design allows enough flow so hydraulic lock (choke flow) does not occur."
obviously this doesn't take into account the current crop of new shocks but it still give a pretty good idea of whats going on
scottishmark said:
Have IQ's suddenly dropped in Scotland? I just said he did not have a compression adjuster on his model!
When did I say I had not tried an Avalanche? I've tried that shock on Brooklyn's, Cortina's and a Karpiel DV. I felt they were over damped in almost every situation. I didn't fiddle with adjustments since they weren't my bike and I don't screw with peoples' settings. The Cortina I tried was on a trail. The shock was tuned for Phil, who's 30 pounds lighter than me and it still felt overdamped.
If you like your overpriced, overdamped shock, that is great. It ain't for me.
If my Avy didn't perform like I said, I would put the Romic back on. I would be the first to admit it.quadricolour said:A big part of it is the confirmation bias. People spend so much on their stuff, it better be awesome or else they might feel like a fool.
I'm sure it's great gear though.
On another note;
Craig is not the easiest guy to work with. I will admit that and so will he.
I have had a few heated discussions with him but, hey, thats what different opinions do. Im sure he is reading this and he will understand what I am talking about. When he is wrong, he WILL admit it. I like the guy for all the reasons mentioned. I will contunue to run Avy shocks on all my bikes. I will run a Avy fork as soon as he makes a regular fork. Its not the price or weight of his forks. Im just not into upsidedown forks. Craig I know you're reading this thread so MAKE A REGULAR FORK for all us upside down fork haters.
i wasn't talking about you not having a go, so you can save all that preaching right away. i was referring to the guy who's started this thread and now decided he knows what kinda of shock it is all of a sudden.Zark said:
Oh yeah, i dont have a comp adjuster on mine either. mine was setup that way by Avalanche in the first place - was i just lucky?
EDIT: woeful typing
I am haapy that some guys here who have actually owned an Avy say their opinion ! Because most guys complaining appear to have never ridden an Avy.......odd !?!?!
Furhtermore..I donot think it is about how much you pay for your suspension. I have used so much $ on Romic shocks when I had them....but they never worked for me and I hate suspension that I have to service all the time......that is one of the reasons I went Avy....not for the claimed BLING-factor....
Furhtermore..I donot think it is about how much you pay for your suspension. I have used so much $ on Romic shocks when I had them....but they never worked for me and I hate suspension that I have to service all the time......that is one of the reasons I went Avy....not for the claimed BLING-factor....
Zark said:
Overpriced ???Based on what ?? All the small bicycle shocks that blows when you look at them ?? I pay for quality.....and even though a product is expensive does not mean that it is overpriced as long as the quality of the product is superior to the competition....and I think IT IS !!!! :devil:
slowly? if so then that was me!
were you there today then?
were you there today then?
seismic said:
All right Cheerleader, What other shocks have you tried and blown up? You keep going on about how everyone who's negative on Avy has no experience with 'em. What shocks have you killed for this highly informed decision?
One word on reliability: everything needs service eventually.
Of course everything need service !
1 x RS
2 x Romic blown !
1 x Fox rc leaking !
( 3 of my friends have destroyed their 5th E)
That is about it....but it is a lot of money and time you have to use to get it fixed and instead I prefered getting an Avy ? Is that a problem ??
1 x RS
2 x Romic blown !
1 x Fox rc leaking !
( 3 of my friends have destroyed their 5th E)
That is about it....but it is a lot of money and time you have to use to get it fixed and instead I prefered getting an Avy ? Is that a problem ??
what do you guys think about Bender?
If you truely believe that, you need to start whining about how avalanche rear shocks are a direct rip off of motorcross shocks. What, does it make it special because avalanche put a piston with shims in a cylinder and marketed it for mountain bikes? Using already proven and accessable technology, avalanche didn't invent squat.nickaziz said:
Smelly said:
Give him an Avy
Kanter, I already knew you were a shock killer
Seismic, blowing up a a Rock Shox doesn't count, they came practically blown
I've had great reliability with my 5th element, but I send it in for service once a year. Did your friends just ride them into the ground?
As for the blown Romics you guys mentioned. Were these the rebound leaking issues they had or other problems?
Seismic, blowing up a a Rock Shox doesn't count, they came practically blown
I've had great reliability with my 5th element, but I send it in for service once a year. Did your friends just ride them into the ground?
As for the blown Romics you guys mentioned. Were these the rebound leaking issues they had or other problems?
The RS = I agree !
The 5th = The blew after approx 6 months. DH guys, - they service their suspension regularly !
Romic = No, - not the rebound. The internals blew in a way that neither comp or rebound worked...actually became a spring around an empty cage ?!?
The 5th = The blew after approx 6 months. DH guys, - they service their suspension regularly !
Romic = No, - not the rebound. The internals blew in a way that neither comp or rebound worked...actually became a spring around an empty cage ?!?
What bike? High leverage ratio could cause some premature death. Not running the reccommended air pressure can also blow them.seismic said:
My 5th is two seasons old, serviced once and ridden hard on nasty terrain. Its not a perfect shock (lack of small bump suppleness) but pedals great, doesn't bottom out harsh and has been reliable.
An upright fork would be great. I have a DHF now. I want a fork that rides like my DHF but is lighter. I feel this can be achieved with an upright design, since you don't need to have huge tubes to achieve stiffness.Kanter said:If my Avy didn't perform like I said, I would put the Romic back on. I would be the first to admit it.
On another note;
Craig is not the easiest guy to work with. I will admit that and so will he.
That's probably a technical issue, you can crank out inverted forks with a CNC machine pretty easily, but when you go to a standard fork you usually need a casting, unless you want it overly flexy or overly heavy in the case of a bolt-on arch design. To be able to cast fork lowers is probably a pretty big deal and probably very cost prohibitive at this point.nickaziz said:
Is the avalanche a direct copy of an mx shock? No.Jm_ said:
There are two points here: 1) The Stratos is a direct copy of the avy, whereas the avy is a scaled down mx shock, not a replica of a specific model 2) even if the avy was an exact copy of an mx shock (which it isnt), they are not a competitor with mx companies and they are not in the same industry, so the arguement is moot.