honestly, i was just watching that on OLN and it was crazy. like all the press they get, and how its such a huge event. for us young'in was DH ever like that? with all the coporate figures and all the hype? and if so, why isnt it now? I Cant imagine racing like that.
why isnt Downhill organized like WC ski racing?
- Thread starter konahucker43
- Start date
mountain biking had pretty big sponsors didnt they. chevy?gatorade?
...And then it became obvious that mountain bikers as a group are about the cheapest b*stards on the planet, which means little monetary benefit for the sponsors, host venue, local economy, etc. On the other hand, skiers tend to be older, more well-healed, and a LOT more willing to drop coin on anything/everything.
Just one piece of the puzzle, yes, but probably one of the larger ones. So, it boils down to dfinn's comment: MONEY!
Just one piece of the puzzle, yes, but probably one of the larger ones. So, it boils down to dfinn's comment: MONEY!
i wholeheartedly agree (i added downhill to your quote though...xc guys will shell out)SprungShoulders said:
I know some pretty stingy XC guys myself. I think as a group mountain bikers are cheap. We all blow our money on parts and usually don't have enough left to go buy a new car from a company promoting an event (not to mention that many of the big corporate sponsors that are or have been involved in mountain biking (especially DH) make poor products)).©2001 said:
My 2 cents
Get over it-MTB racing has seen its peak and it was not any cooler than it is now...be happy with where it is at, which is tribal. ;-)
i don't know if it's reached it's peak, but fr/dh is supposedly lumped into a lifestyle sports category like skate/surf/snowboard/bmx...where you're not supposed to care about money as long as you care about the sport and everyone is supposed to get "hooked up".
well, fr/dh costs a ton of money compared to any of those sports where at most, you spend $1000 +/- on equipment for the year.
dh/fr mtb should be aligned with moto, where you take the bike out of the store and the manufacturer is no longer liable for the rider's actions. if you f' up your moto parts, you can't whine to honda or kawasaki about it's product, you just go buy new stuff because you ran it too hard. with bikes, everyone thinks if something breaks, they should get it replaced for free...biggest problem in the industry.
even in skiing/snowboarding, if you gouge out your based/edges on a rock, you can't send your stuff back expecting a replacement. you get it repaired, but if joe bike rider bends his derailleur on a rock, it must mean shimano or sram sucks and should give him a new one. (how's that for a blanket statement
)
well, fr/dh costs a ton of money compared to any of those sports where at most, you spend $1000 +/- on equipment for the year.
dh/fr mtb should be aligned with moto, where you take the bike out of the store and the manufacturer is no longer liable for the rider's actions. if you f' up your moto parts, you can't whine to honda or kawasaki about it's product, you just go buy new stuff because you ran it too hard. with bikes, everyone thinks if something breaks, they should get it replaced for free...biggest problem in the industry.
even in skiing/snowboarding, if you gouge out your based/edges on a rock, you can't send your stuff back expecting a replacement. you get it repaired, but if joe bike rider bends his derailleur on a rock, it must mean shimano or sram sucks and should give him a new one. (how's that for a blanket statement
)
©2001 said:i don't know if it's reached it's peak, but fr/dh is supposedly lumped into a lifestyle sports category like skate/surf/snowboard/bmx...where you're not supposed to care about money as long as you care about the sport and everyone is supposed to get "hooked up".
well, fr/dh costs a ton of money compared to any of those sports where at most, you spend $1000 +/- on equipment for the year.
dh/fr mtb should be aligned with moto, where you take the bike out of the store and the manufacturer is no longer liable for the rider's actions. if you f' up your moto parts, you can't whine to honda or kawasaki about it's product, you just go buy new stuff because you ran it too hard. with bikes, everyone thinks if something breaks and they should get it replaced for free...biggest problem in the industry.
even in skiing/snowboarding, if you gouge out your based/edges on a rock, you can't send your stuff back expecting a replacement. you get it repaired, but if joe bike rider bends his derailleur on a rock, it must mean shimano or sram sucks and should give him a new one. (how's that for a blanket statement
so true. I still find it hard to believe that my motocross race bike costs as much as a dh bicycle
Amen to that. Skiing and surfing are ****. Do you really want a bunch of posers hanging around, getting in your way? Bikes are better left underground where the people that ride really love it.stiksandstones said:
MTB racing is better than it's ever been. As a wee JRX grom I had dreams of actually making a living as a pro racer, as there were easily 20 guys in the US (combining XC and DH) who were making more than $25,000 a year. I would wager that there are about 5 american men who make that much now, xc and dh combined.
I got all freaked out about ****, and threw up on some pretty expensive shoes on NCS startlines because of it, i was an angry little bike-racing troll, like a whole generation of Jr X racers that came of age right when the bubble burst. All of a sudden every local race cost $40 and had 6 10x10 ez-up's in the parking lot, and they pretended they were a national but there was no prize money anymore.
Kids with XC tendencies went to road-racing where we got put through the meatgrinder, and a few survived. The DH kids who ****ing ruled, like Jesse Whitsell disappeard to go race sports like Rally where there was still a modicum of professsionalism left. By and large the generation of DH racers that turned senior in 97-00 completely disappeared off the face of the earth, and The class of '02 emerged from their dust.
There was money being pumped into DH racing, but no sponosors ever saw any return, so they jumped ship for sports like Sailing, Tennis and Hot Toddies with Biff and Muffy.
The most significant decline in cash input happened on the world cup circuit with the loss of the live Eurosport coverage. It looks like the events that European Satellite channels have been showing live have been recieving a good rating lately, so it's possible that 23deg and Gestev might land a full TV contract in the future, which might get a little bit more cash back into the UCI scene where it belongs.
IMO North Americans are to lazy, fat and stupid to enjoy watching Bike racing, as no one here relates.
Must stop ranting...
The money and the glam are gone now, and so are the "rockstars", and I actually enjoy going to the races again. BTW who was the genius that came up with "rockstar suspension" as a Marzocchi slogan? IS anyone out there aware of the huge negative connotations that phrase has for most sensitive, dispossed indie kids? (the vast majority of the high-end bike market... why no-one pumps money into MTB...)
I got all freaked out about ****, and threw up on some pretty expensive shoes on NCS startlines because of it, i was an angry little bike-racing troll, like a whole generation of Jr X racers that came of age right when the bubble burst. All of a sudden every local race cost $40 and had 6 10x10 ez-up's in the parking lot, and they pretended they were a national but there was no prize money anymore.
Kids with XC tendencies went to road-racing where we got put through the meatgrinder, and a few survived. The DH kids who ****ing ruled, like Jesse Whitsell disappeard to go race sports like Rally where there was still a modicum of professsionalism left. By and large the generation of DH racers that turned senior in 97-00 completely disappeared off the face of the earth, and The class of '02 emerged from their dust.
There was money being pumped into DH racing, but no sponosors ever saw any return, so they jumped ship for sports like Sailing, Tennis and Hot Toddies with Biff and Muffy.
The most significant decline in cash input happened on the world cup circuit with the loss of the live Eurosport coverage. It looks like the events that European Satellite channels have been showing live have been recieving a good rating lately, so it's possible that 23deg and Gestev might land a full TV contract in the future, which might get a little bit more cash back into the UCI scene where it belongs.
IMO North Americans are to lazy, fat and stupid to enjoy watching Bike racing, as no one here relates.
Must stop ranting...
The money and the glam are gone now, and so are the "rockstars", and I actually enjoy going to the races again. BTW who was the genius that came up with "rockstar suspension" as a Marzocchi slogan? IS anyone out there aware of the huge negative connotations that phrase has for most sensitive, dispossed indie kids? (the vast majority of the high-end bike market... why no-one pumps money into MTB...)
A-lot of riders dont give a **** about winning a race they are there for the chalange, the sport, and riding trails they usualy cant.
SHure people get excited about winning but look at the people who stay for awards none of them are realy bumed about not winning.
my $.02
SHure people get excited about winning but look at the people who stay for awards none of them are realy bumed about not winning.
my $.02
DH skiing is just skiis/poles/boots.& clothes. + lift pass.Plus they are going warp speed 80 mph & DH bike racing has evolved to mostly pounding over & through rocks at a much slower speed. & 4x racing is same ol' same ol' bump/cut lines & follow the leader....
*We need DOWNHILL 1/4 mile course just a totally different kinda course.
2 riders go on DH bikes.
Like the OLYMPIC course like skiier Johnny Mosely did that "dinner roll" to win gold...ALL out in the open slope for all too see......With those mandatory boosting jumps.Timed event.
*We need DOWNHILL 1/4 mile course just a totally different kinda course.
2 riders go on DH bikes.
Like the OLYMPIC course like skiier Johnny Mosely did that "dinner roll" to win gold...ALL out in the open slope for all too see......With those mandatory boosting jumps.Timed event.
I see you have met Mr. JRA too?©2001 said:i don't know if it's reached it's peak, but fr/dh is supposedly lumped into a lifestyle sports category like skate/surf/snowboard/bmx...where you're not supposed to care about money as long as you care about the sport and everyone is supposed to get "hooked up".
well, fr/dh costs a ton of money compared to any of those sports where at most, you spend $1000 +/- on equipment for the year.
dh/fr mtb should be aligned with moto, where you take the bike out of the store and the manufacturer is no longer liable for the rider's actions. if you f' up your moto parts, you can't whine to honda or kawasaki about it's product, you just go buy new stuff because you ran it too hard. with bikes, everyone thinks if something breaks, they should get it replaced for free...biggest problem in the industry.
even in skiing/snowboarding, if you gouge out your based/edges on a rock, you can't send your stuff back expecting a replacement. you get it repaired, but if joe bike rider bends his derailleur on a rock, it must mean shimano or sram sucks and should give him a new one. (how's that for a blanket statement
(Just Riding Along) That guy is a real prick.
I don't know if DH has reached it's peak or not, but in relation to why people sponsor something or not, I think that the assumption that a company will only sponsor something if there's a return within that specific demographic is a false one, look at BMX or skateboarding for instance, now I don't have any statistics to back this up but it doesn't sem to me that big buck sponsors are in it to get skaters to buy their product but rather in the branding of being associated with the sport. another thing is that I don't think that you can say DH mtb is way slower than DH skiing therefore it's not enjoyable to watch, if this statement were true then Dragracing would by the same logic be the most exciting form of car racing, and air shows with jetplanes would be on every network. Think of the Tour de France, if you look at simply as biike racing it's pretty boring, 5 hours a day, some days nothing happens, but there's plenty of stuff going on around it that adds to the experience, and mainly I think it's a matter of establishing a tradition among the spectators, to watch a sport and find it enjoyable is a matter of knowledge about the sport, it doesn't have to be first hand experiences.Also I think it's a matter of timing, skateboarding has had it's ups and downs, as will any sport, whether DHing will become mainstream remains to be seen, but I don't think it has much to do with the format or the content of the sport itself.
Brian LopesSuspectDevice said:
Eric Carter
King
Schmith
Warren
Zink
Wells
Craig
Horgan Kobelski
Wicks
Trebon
Bishop
Brown
Eatough
theres 14 in about ten seconds i could keep going if you'd like
but alright i agree it ain't the glory days but things are going well for our sport, the spillover of DH/Freeride into young adults is tremendous and many of them do race, sponsorship for everything is down, including Road Racing
To me, as a former promoter, I learned that pretty much all competitive sporting events rely on a "Triangle of Success." The three corners of the triangle, are: sponsorship, media, and professional athlete's. For an EVENT to be successful, all three angles have to connect. For the SPORT to be successful, all three angles have to connect on a consistent basis. That happened a long time ago for skiing. For MTB, while the athlete's have remained fairly consistent, major sponsors have come and gone; none have really stayed the course. And media coverage is almost nonexistent.
If someone can figure out the secret to completing the "triangle" on a consistent basis, the sport will start growing again. Otherwise.....
If someone can figure out the secret to completing the "triangle" on a consistent basis, the sport will start growing again. Otherwise.....
Go ahead, but i'm real sure that you would be suprised but most of those kids you've already listed get barely get enough money to buy food. Schmith posted on here just the other day saying he was working construction to be able to afford racing. Mike King gets zippo-dippo from racing. He rides for himself these days...sirbikealot said:
Trebron is living off of euro 'cross start money, and couch surfing, but if he goes to the road soon, as well he should, his suffering will pay off. I doubt Cody Warren is getting paid...
Wicks has an expenses only contract, and if Zink is getting paid it isn't for his racing skills. Same thing goes for Brown, he's getting paid pretty much for face time and RD these days, probally doesn't even get paid out of the team budget
Lopes and Carter, and maybe David K make any sort of real cash as far as US men go, and even then it is a very modest amount....
On the XC sid
Toddwells.com and Adam Craig are both finally getting paid, which makes me happy, but otherwise you are looking at guys running on fumes....
BINGO!!! There really isn't that much money in MTBing sports.dfinn said:
SuspectDevice said:
i understand your point and now you understand mine because you just proved it, there are more than 5 racers in the US making more than $25k
and a bunch more canadians to eh!
McGrath
Green
Kabush
Premont
Sydor
its nothing personal about you or your post, I just don't like such dire outlooks on racing, i've been racing elite for years and now also promote the Provincial DH/4Xseries here in Ontario Canada which is attracting hundreds of DH and 4X racers to each and every race, we are the fastest growing discipline of cycling here and its all growth in youth where our under 18yr old categories have 5-10 times the number of racers compared to the same age category at a Provincial road race
Green is retired. McGrath got busted for doping but retired anyways. I doudt they get much dough from racing these days.sirbikealot said:
Okay, I'll add my two cents here even though I didn't read the whole thread and someone may have already acknowledged this.
So yeah, ski racing does have some decent press(far more than mountain bike racing). However, I really think that trying to model downhill bike racing after ski racing is a bad idea. I am decently involved in the ski world when I'm not riding and I can honestly tell you that ski racing is slowly falling apart. Ratings and interest are at an all time low and the only reason it still has the press it does is because someone up top hasn't made the poor decisions that the people in Mountain Bike racing have. However, look through ANY ski magazine or watch ANY ski flick and look at how much racing has an impact on skiing. Very little.
Ski companies are making their appeal to the recreational weekend warrior and the freestyle generation. In much the same mentality, mountain biking is marketing the 6 inch trail bike and the dirt jump bike more heavily than ever.
I will be the last to support the freeride rhelm above racing in mountain biking. However, if we model our sport after skiing, we need to be prepared to watch the race scene disintegrate. On the flip side, embracing the freeride movement has brought a whole new life to the dying sport of skiing. Kids are putting down their snowboards and buying skis now! In much the same way, kids are putting down their bmx bikes and buying 26s. As hard as it is to choke down, if we follow skiing as an example, it may be necessary to watch the course tape disappear out of the mainstream in exchange for some respect among the action sports world and media.
We live in a generation that is growing ever more independent and wanting freedom in every facet of life. Unfortunately, the strict, sometimes confusing rules of racing just don't do it for most kids.
So yeah, ski racing does have some decent press(far more than mountain bike racing). However, I really think that trying to model downhill bike racing after ski racing is a bad idea. I am decently involved in the ski world when I'm not riding and I can honestly tell you that ski racing is slowly falling apart. Ratings and interest are at an all time low and the only reason it still has the press it does is because someone up top hasn't made the poor decisions that the people in Mountain Bike racing have. However, look through ANY ski magazine or watch ANY ski flick and look at how much racing has an impact on skiing. Very little.
Ski companies are making their appeal to the recreational weekend warrior and the freestyle generation. In much the same mentality, mountain biking is marketing the 6 inch trail bike and the dirt jump bike more heavily than ever.
I will be the last to support the freeride rhelm above racing in mountain biking. However, if we model our sport after skiing, we need to be prepared to watch the race scene disintegrate. On the flip side, embracing the freeride movement has brought a whole new life to the dying sport of skiing. Kids are putting down their snowboards and buying skis now! In much the same way, kids are putting down their bmx bikes and buying 26s. As hard as it is to choke down, if we follow skiing as an example, it may be necessary to watch the course tape disappear out of the mainstream in exchange for some respect among the action sports world and media.
We live in a generation that is growing ever more independent and wanting freedom in every facet of life. Unfortunately, the strict, sometimes confusing rules of racing just don't do it for most kids.
Oh, and not ragging on you for not knowing, but Mosely didn't win gold the year he did the dinner role. The FIS retards ruled that that a quad-twister was a cooler looking trick than an off axis 720 and gave the gold to another guy. Again, it comes down to what the new generation of kids is looking for. A strict and confusing rule book is not the way to go about it. The FIS and Norba are a lot alike and they just can't seem to move on, even though their respective sports are choking to death. If we want to use skiing as an example, I recommend that we not use the dying aspects of it.
You now what might get the MT. biking out, and grasp new sponsors attention would probably be a biography about bikers and biking, kind of like the new snowboarding movie that is coming out. This will grasp more people’s attention at the sport. This is kind of like that movie blue crush. It wasn’t that great at all but it got plenty of girl's to start surfing which opened up the market for more coverage and sponsors of the sport.
I think it would be really great to see more races on TV and money in the pro sector of the sport, but what it really comes down to is your passion for riding, beating your old times, learning tricks, and camaraderie. I'm pretty happy with it right as it is.
Craig really deserves it. He rides hard and is such a friendly guy. He stops at our shop near his hometown here in maine and rides with us a few times a year. He's been doing awesome in the WC, its great hes startin to get alittle something extra for it!SuspectDevice said:
I have a question: so we know there was more money back in the day (Chevy, Gatorade...lots of non-cycling corporate sponsors)....but aren't there more people riding now and going to races?
And the big problem in this country is that nobody cares about bikes at all. I was reading the Boston Globe on Monday and noticed that the sports section had a few things on ski racing but nothing about the MASSIVE CX Nat's race in Providence, RI. Why? For the most part, nobody cares....especially about CX.....but for a bike race, it was a huge turnout.
And the big problem in this country is that nobody cares about bikes at all. I was reading the Boston Globe on Monday and noticed that the sports section had a few things on ski racing but nothing about the MASSIVE CX Nat's race in Providence, RI. Why? For the most part, nobody cares....especially about CX.....but for a bike race, it was a huge turnout.
this is a totally sponsor driven flick. Pepsi/Mt.Dew paid for the entire thing out of their ad budget. Watch for plenty of "Do the Dew" helmet stickers and product placement.Adam Novatt said:
I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Snowboarding will probably benefit from the flick, but it's just sly marketing from everyone's favorite "Xtreme" sugar water company. The footage in the trailer looks good.
The reason Ski racing is so much bigger is all money. The ski industry makes alot of money and can afford to put some towards racing, even if racing is dying. A good solid ski setup costs just over $1000. This setup is replaced very often, sometime every year. The old stuff some is sold used but not much. Also very few people have a hook-up or sponsor. Customers walk into ski shops expecting to see the MSRP prices. If it is less they are surprised and happy to see it. Go to a large ski event either freeskiing or racing and ask how many people have a hook-up you will find not alot do.
Now in the bike world people are cheap greedy bastards. Everyone has a hook-up or sponsor. Just look at the signatures of people on this board. We all know which companies are the biggest whores when it comes to hooking people up. Everyone thinks; "I ride a bike I deserve stuff." You go to a race and it is hard to find people that do not have a hook-up. Customers come into bike shops and are outrage when they see the MSRP of things. Almost everyone seems to know cost these days and gets upset when they have to pay more than cost + 10%. We buy our expensive $2000 bikes and keep them for years. The guys not keeping them for years usually got them at cost and sell them used dirt cheap.
We the riders are the biggest reason there is no money to help this sport grow. How can we ask others to give the sport money when we will not even do it?
Now in the bike world people are cheap greedy bastards. Everyone has a hook-up or sponsor. Just look at the signatures of people on this board. We all know which companies are the biggest whores when it comes to hooking people up. Everyone thinks; "I ride a bike I deserve stuff." You go to a race and it is hard to find people that do not have a hook-up. Customers come into bike shops and are outrage when they see the MSRP of things. Almost everyone seems to know cost these days and gets upset when they have to pay more than cost + 10%. We buy our expensive $2000 bikes and keep them for years. The guys not keeping them for years usually got them at cost and sell them used dirt cheap.
We the riders are the biggest reason there is no money to help this sport grow. How can we ask others to give the sport money when we will not even do it?
Biking will take off in 20-30 years once gas is too pricey, and all the kids that are doing moto move over to dh. That and the technology then will be such that they will be able to provide the type of coverage of a course that they do now for Rally or even for Supercross. cameras on ziplines everywhere, red bull choppers flying around with cameramen hanging out, scantily clad women wearing skin tight maxxis uniforms, etc. That's my guess. It will never have the appeal of skiing for the large demographic because crashing hurts alot more, and no dh trail will be as easy as a blue square groomer. So the older people who are settled in their career and have the cash to spend will never move towards it in large groups. I know that Honda is hedging there bets for biking taking on way down the road. Fair bet, but not in the time frame any of us will still be dh'ing.
It'd be cool to see mountain biking kinda go in the direction of surfing. Harsh localism, a good world tour, (think world cup, wait, that's already rockin!) lots of babes watching, and while everyone knows what it is, not everyone does it. Just give mountain biking another 30 or 40 years, and who knows where it will go. Freak out right now if you want, but we're still in the kooky, embarassing stage of the sport. If we manage to find huge success again, it'll be in a couple of years, so just chill and enjoy it while it's still the real deal. Then enjoy the next set of fame. If that doesn't burn you out, have this conversation again. Every "alternative" sport has its ups and downs, don't freak. Growth spurt to growth spurt!
Ahh, but even over there, more and more people are starting to trade their race skis in for a pair of twin tips. Why are people like Charles Garnier, Lorant Favre, Jon Olson, and Candide Thovex becoming increasingly more prevelant? Just like in Mountain Bike racing... slowly but surely, they're giving it up. And even if you do use Europe as an example... that's not here. Not every young mountain bike racer can afford to go to Europe to get their kicks. In that case, the simplicity and freedom of freeride still wins everytime. Again, sad but true.
Just a little lesson in life... #1 rule in econimics: People respond to incentives!!! There is less incentive than ever for a parent to drive their kid to a Downhill race when they can drop little timmy off at the local Dirt Jump park and go have coffee. Less cost, less time... economically efficient, thus prevaling.
DHblur, I think you're right about this. Look at BMX, FMX, and skateboarding. All started out as racing events, and eventually morphed into the more freestyle activities that they are now.
Hopefully we'll become more like surfing, man against nature, with lots of rich mommas wearing hardly any clothing cheering us on.
Hopefully we'll become more like surfing, man against nature, with lots of rich mommas wearing hardly any clothing cheering us on.