Give this man a cookie. Recommended sag percentages are selected for a reason.Usually sag, bottoming, and correct spring go hand in hand.
Give this man a cookie. Recommended sag percentages are selected for a reason.Usually sag, bottoming, and correct spring go hand in hand.
Thats what knobs and air adjustments are for. I love knobs and air pressure.You can't have a fork setup to work well in every single condition, no matter what you'd like to think. Racing VS trailriding VS hucking 10ft cliffs all require different setups.
WHERES MY COOKIE?Give this man a cookie. Recommended sag percentages are selected for a reason.
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All of the other fork brands are available through several distributors (competition = better pricing). . Fox does NOT sell through any distributors in the US, only fox direct. I would bet that there are lots of smaller shops that dont carry fox, at least in part, for this reason.
What all this means is that fox is harder to get ahold of and thus they are more expensive. (ever see a current fox fork for less than msrp??)
also, anyone who is affiliated with ANY shop can get a screaming deal on Marz, Manitou and RS. RS even does their employee purchace program thoough QBP. Not so with fox.
Those are not distributors, those are retailers. BIG difference.Actually Fox Sells with distributors all the time like jenson Beyondbikes.com Cambria and you never see less than msrp cause fox wants it to be a level playing field. For instance Beyond or jenson might get the forks cheeper cause they buy more then like a local shop.
The boxxer can be adjusted in travel.Reasons why I'm not getting rid of my 40:
*Easy, easy travel adjustment between 6-8", so it can be used on either my ENDURO or my Demo-8.
*Only .5lb heavier than a Boxxer WC.
*Sealed cartridge that allows seal changes to take 20 minutes and not require tons of tools. I have better things to do with my time than rebuild cartridges. Besides, the 40 cartridge, in over a year and a half of racing and riding, hasn't needed re-building. New seals every 4-6 months, or about 2-3000 miles.
*The 40 is good and linear, keeping it from getting stuck at that stiff spot my Marzocchi always got stuck in.
*The adjustments work super well. 2 clicks out from full rebound, 2 clicks out from full slow speed, and 4 clicks out from full high speed seems to work great on 90% of all race courses.
*I've yet to see a 40 break IN HALF like I have seen a couple Boxxers. At a couple of the races (Vigo and Willingen) the lowers turned into an L, with the stanchion poking out and into the ground.
*Everyone on campus thinks I'm riding a tractor and gets that Deer-in-the-headlights look when I ride towards them really fast.
This is kind of a funny thread. I have some thoughts, all of which are probably wrong, but here's my two cents.
The changes in atmosphereic pressure from the top of a 2,000ft + dh run to the bottom really affect the pressure inside your suspension. That's why some shocks use nitrogen, it is less affected by altitude changes (again, just look at motocross, everyone runs nitrogen assisted dampening, not just regular "air")
Correct. Nitrogen is inert, dry and is not affected by temperature changes (big deal in suspension). This is why it is used. Atmospheric pressure changes will still affect it.i think you might have this one wrong, as, to my knowledge at least, nitrogen is used for not having oxygen (corrosion) and also for having a more neutral temperature v/s pressure curve.
motocross is a actually a good example for this, in the sense that they choose nitrogen and race on a course that normally has no altitude change at all, but those dampers do get hot and thats why they use nitro.
The boxxer is 1lb+ lighter than a 40 (boxxer WC's are 6.1 and 40's are 7.1 as far as I am aware).
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The WC is 5.9 lbs and the '07 40 RC2 is 6.88, so almost a pound lighter... Thats all I have to add.
Actually, my brand new 05 40R's hit the scales at 6.76 pounds (with ti spring) out of the box, with an uncut steerer tube. Riding wise, i actually prefered the 40s to my 06 and 07 World Cups- once they had the right spring rate i found that the forks were so much more confidence inspiring purely because of the extra stiffness. I have had slightly more trouble with the boxxers (although they rebuilt them for me with new bushings when i sent them the forks), but otherwise they were both pretty damn reliable.The boxxer is 1lb+ lighter than a 40 (boxxer WC's are 6.1 and 40's are 7.1 as far as I am aware).
You're probably right, bottom line though, temperature's can change quite a bit from the top of a course to the bottom, or from early morning practice to mid-afternoon race runs. I should have used temperature or altitude instead of atmosphere. Moto tracks can span pretty big elevation differences, especially outdoor or harescrambles, although not often. I really don't know anything about moto, I just know that no one uses "air." And that back to back races are frequently at different altitudes from each other. Time spent dialing in suspension at each different race, although very neccessary, can waste valuable track time to learn the course and take care of other neccessary issues before the gates drop. If dh bikes are really going to use air pressure effectively as the predominant preload factor, then shops and race trailers will need nitro tanks, that's all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think moto's use nitro for preload either, it's more for bottom out resistance and changing the progressiveness of the stroke.i think you might have this one wrong, as, to my knowledge at least, nitrogen is used for not having oxygen (corrosion) and also for having a more neutral temperature v/s pressure curve.
motocross is a actually a good example for this, in the sense that they choose nitrogen and race on a course that normally has no altitude change at all, but those dampers do get hot and thats why they use nitro.
Which is exactly why I don't understand how you can think that "one amount of progression" is right for everybody. So again, it's a critical adjustment for maximum performance.You can't have a fork setup to work well in every single condition, no matter what you'd like to think. Racing VS trailriding VS hucking 10ft cliffs all require different setups.
I'm fairly sure the 07's don't have the Ti springs. But after you spend $1600 bucks on a fork you shouldn't have to go out and spend another $250 to get a Ti spring in the proper weight.6.88 with steel spring, just to be clear. You can knock a fair amount off of that with ti spring. I am not sure if the ti spring is included anymore??
If the fork is too linear, it is possible to run correct sag and bottom excessively. I think the 40 is a great example where people have had this issue, and have gone to a harder spring (giving less than ideal sag) to stop the bottoming issue.If you are slamming the fork to the bottom time after time, the spring rate is incorrect, and chances are you are running 40 or 50% sag. If your sag is indeed correct, you will not be getting metal on metal bottoming out routinely unless you have nothing but a spring even there, and even then, it is unlikley.
The bottom out adjuster is also probably wide open (which will adjust the progressivity of the fork at the bottom end, the only place it is needed).
Yeah, I was only talking about forks with no bumpers. You can blow those bottomout bumpers into bits and explode damping rods and the like still.He is however wrong on the metal-on-metal bottom out thing. The Boxxer and 40 both run rubber bottom out bumpers, which means you never get that metal on metal clunk (even though you bottom out hard). It's a nice addition, but don't let the lack of noise fool you into thinking you aren't bottoming out hard. Marzocchi forks don't run bumpers so you will hear a clunk on a hard bottom, but i'm sure it'd be easy enough to drop in a pair.
dampers use pressurized gas to avoid foaming and cavitation, thats the main use. derived from the design (volume displacement and the associated pressure changes) comes effective spring rate progression or bottom out protection as you call it.You're probably right, bottom line though, temperature's can change drastically from the top of a course to the bottom. I should have used temperature or altitude instead of atmosphere. Moto tracks can span pretty big elevation differences, especially outdoor or harescrambles, although not often. I really don't know anything about moto, I just know that no one uses "air." And that back to back races are frequently at different altitudes from each other. Time spent dialing in suspension at each different race, although very neccessary, can waste valuable track time to learn the course and take care of other neccessary issues before the gates drop. If dh bikes are really going to use air pressure effectively as the predominant preload factor, then shops and race trailers will need nitro tanks, that's all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think moto's use nitro for preload either, it's more for bottom out resistance and changing the progressiveness of the stroke.
Actually, wrong again (sorry!)You can blow those bottomout bumpers into bits and explode damping rods and the like still.
Isn't adjusting spring rate the same as adjusting preload. What's wrong with the current trend of adding a few preload spacers to your fork, spinning a preload knob, or giving a little spin to the threaded preload ring on a rear shock. This seams just as easy as attaching a shock pump and less finicky in design. Wouldn't that just be making a change for the sake of change and not really for any true performance benefit? Even bikes with low leverage ratios don't feel good with an air rear shock right now. DW link bikes have really low ratios, I've actually been told by a reliable source that Weagle actually designed the linkage to be paired with an air shock. Problem is that suspension performance of air shocks just doesn't match that of springs. On a mellow course like Sea Otter you can get away with it, but if there is anything nasty on the course everyone seems to put the springs back on imediately. Besides, leverage ratios don't apply to forks.bottom line is that i think air could very well be used in the future, but it might not be all that useful in the rear shock just for weight saving, but the ability to adjust spring rate could make it a good tool for bikes and courses where that is needed. technology might not be there right now but its not far away, and the new designs with low leverage ratios will probably mate quite well with air shocks since they require less pressure.
Well, you're assuming the damping rods are straight, not binding/bending due to the impact (common) and aligned correctly, which is also sometimes not the case.Actually, wrong again (sorry!)
Most forks (fox, marzocchi, rockshox) bottom out stanchion into lower. So at bottom out (ie. when it has actually hit, after overcoming any damping) there is no stress on the damper or damping rod. The bumper sits between the lower and the stanchion.
Isn't adjusting spring rate the same as adjusting preload. What's wrong with the current trend of adding a few preload spacers to your fork, spinning a preload knob, or giving a little spin to the threaded preload ring on a rear shock. This seams just as easy as attaching a shock pump and less finicky in design. Wouldn't that just be making a change for the sake of change and not really for any true performance benefit? Even bikes with low leverage ratios don't feel good with an air rear shock right now. DW link bikes have really low ratios, I've actually been told by a reliable source that Weagle actually designed the linkage to be paired with an air shock. Problem is that suspension performance of air shocks just doesn't match that of springs. On a mellow course like Sea Otter you can get away with it, but if there is anything nasty on the course everyone seems to put the springs back on imediately. Besides, leverage ratios don't apply to forks.
Oh, so now it's "every hit" bottoms out a fork? I'm going to come out with this new game; it will be called the "jump to conclusions" game.Saying that you have metal on metal (damaging) bottom outs at 150 lbs on every hit with a properly setup fork is BS however. Typical JM claim.
yes, but aren't the two directly correlated. therefore, for the purpose of this conversation basically affecting the same thing. For example, is it possible to to change one without the other. I think not. When you add preload spacers aren't you in essence stiffening the spring rate? remove spacers lessening the spring rate, and so on.amigo you are really way wrong with that, preload can be describe as the force you need to exert in order to get the suspension "going", spring rate is the quotient between travel and force exerted.
I weigh 165. And straight up dh terrain is what I ride most with some freeridish stuff thrown it.For lighter guys, it's a fork made in heaven.
The only hypocrite is you my friend. Apprently you are illiterate as well.Oh, so now it's "every hit" bottoms out a fork? I'm going to come out with this new game; it will be called the "jump to conclusions" game.
The laughable part is that you tout all this "fork setup, must properly tune it to each rider and each condition" BS, and then when we start describing an adjustment that "your" fork evidently doesn't have, you start going off and whining and trying to go back into your "safe place" where people don't set their forks up right or whatever. Sure, lots of people don't set their forks up right, but for the last time, you're trying to tell me with all of your "must set the fork up right" BS that one amount of progression suits everyone?
Hypocrite?
It's an 04 with a compression sleeve covering 3 holes. I know the difference between plush (slicky slicky smoove smoove) and compression damping.Is your 888 a pre-06? If so that smoothness that you seem to be mentioning a lot lately is just an inherent lack of compression damping. When it comes to performance, a 40 or boxxer is a noticeable improvement (especially when it comes to corner entry/exit speed).
This is what I keep saying. With the spring that gives me the right sag, and feels great over chop, tracks well and sags the bike properly, I bottom it too easily. SO....I go to a heavier spring to fix that problem and then it rides harsher than I would like.If you are routinely slamming your fork to the bottom, you need a heavier spring weight. Period. You can also adjust the bottom out setting in the fork. So again, user setup error (like 99% of mtb suspension problems) and no fault of the fork.
Right, in your case you need to dial in the bottom out adjuster. It is there for a reason, for some reason JM likes to pretend it isn't. The quote above was for people routinely bottom it by hucking off of nonsense. They need heavier springs for the type of riding they are doing.This is what I keep saying. With the spring that gives me the right sag, and feels great over chop, tracks well and sags the bike properly, I bottom it too easily. SO....I go to a heavier spring to fix that problem and then it rides harsher than I would like.
As much as JM's past rants on boxxers et al have annoyed me just as much as everyone else.....he's right about the progressive issue.
That's why I want to try the 07s. The high speed dampers on the oldies didn't do the trick. Worked better but not enough. Even when dialed all the way in.Right, in your case you need to dial in the bottom out adjuster. It is there for a reason, for some reason JM likes to pretend it isn't. The quote above was for people routinely bottom it by hucking off of nonsense. They need heavier springs for the type of riding they are doing.
I've been on 07 internals most of the season, as has butch. I haven;t had a need to dial mine in, but it feels even plusher than last year. Could be the super lightweight spring they managed to dig up for me though, so it is hard to say.That's why I want to try the 07s. The high speed dampers on the oldies didn't do the trick. Worked better but not enough. Even when dialed all the way in.
Anyway......I'm just repeating myself but I for one would like to see a better system to make them a little more progressive. Maybe they've done it for next year's model.
actually, spring weight as you call it is the spring rate, the spring compresses one inch when you apply 450lbs to it, quotient is 450 lbs/in.yes, but aren't the two directly correlated. therefore, for the purpose of this conversation basically affecting the same thing. For example, is it possible to to change one without the other. I think not. When you add preload spacers aren't you in essence stiffening the spring rate? remove spacers lessening the spring rate, and so on.
Spring rate is the same as the weight right, ie 450lbs spring, etc. I thought when you changed the preload adjustment you were basically manipulating the spring rate. I'm confused.
weight RC2The only hypocrite is you my friend. Apprently you are illiterate as well.
THERE IS AN ADJUSTMENT. People like you are just too ignorant to use it and would prefer to complain.
The only rc2 I've owned is the 36 I have. I've ridden a few 40s quite a bit though. I buddy of mine who's been racing dh bikes forever (pro even:biggrin: ) basically has the same complaints I did when I've ridden his fork. I bitched about it being oversprung and he said it was because he kept bottoming the stock spring. I ridden on a another friend's bike who's lighter than me with the stock spring and I couldn't keep it from bottoming HARD even though it felt great and was pretty smooth over most everything.Did you ever have yours adjusted? The high speed damper on the outside didn't have a wide range of adjustability, you had to adjust the bottom out cone, which basically shifted the entire damping range.
Use the softer spring, and get the bottom out adjusted, although at your weight, it may be a bit too much. It basically just shifts the entire high speed damping range into the firmer end of things.
You cannot, the hydraulic bottom out adjuster is inside of the cart. No thanks on the 36, i already have more fox forx than i can shake a stick at. I do need one for a mk2 i have coming hopefully.Do you know if you can do this at home? I ain't skeerd. Just haven't looked at the mystery box yet.
Too late anyway. I've got a new 66 waiting for me at a friend's house.
Wanna buy a 36?
Oh hell yeah. Hopefully it's worse than the old vanilla I did that to.Wanna buy a float rlc with wc (scalopped) crowns?
Oh hell yeah. Hopefully it's worse than the old vanilla I did that to.
Nothing beats a changing head angle mid ride.
At least fox retains their springs without using a c-clip the diameter of my pubic hair on a piece of maluable aluminum.