Will the Saint Rear Derailleur work with standard hubs?
- Thread starter DH Dad
- Start date
Saint isn't going to work with too much stuff right away...if you have any special axle size whatsoever you're basically screwed.
No. The Saint rear derailleur only works with specially compatible hubs, made by Shimano or whoever decides to knock-off.
I don't think that's really true. At least, it doesn't make sense to me. I would imagine that the saint axle only fits in the right hub, but if it fits in a QR dropout, it has to be a certain diameter axle, which means the mech has to be able to mount on that diameter, which means a specially made axle SHOULD be able to make it work with any hub. The key is the specially made axle, though.
Forget Saint! It works like crap! Many of us have been saying it from the beginning. If you want proof here it is. There were only 2 major drivetrain misshaps in the Redbull Rampage, both on Richie Schley's bike. The first had his derrailleur torn off and wrapped around his cogset (derrailleur upside down in the cogs) the second time he broke an axle over a gap. Yeah Richie is a hard rider, but is he that much harder riding than all of the other people competing in the event with standard drivetrains? Saint offer no major advantage and is showing to have some serious reliability issues.
Just to give Shimano some crdit it was on Andrew Shandro's bike too, but that cat is buttery smooth.
Just to give Shimano some crdit it was on Andrew Shandro's bike too, but that cat is buttery smooth.
From what I hear it will work with any 10mm thru axle hub, but then again I could be wrong.
So it may not be the best for huge abusive riding but what I'm considering it for is to solve my poor track record with derailleur hangers. I've got a 2001 RFX and the bike is awesome but has the worst derailleur hanger solution in the history of biking. The hangers are as soft as warm butter and will bend under a stiff breeze, I've gone through 8 since I got the bike and that's including realligning each of the 8 a few times before replacing it.
I'm not the type to go huge and the problems I've had with my current setup are from smashing the derailluer but rather sucking up small twigs etc. when riding in New England, especially the fall when everything's covered in a blancket of leaves 2-3" deep and you can't even see the fallen branches.
Anyone know what the diameter is of a standard QR hub? I assume it's 10mm but that's just a guess.
I'm not the type to go huge and the problems I've had with my current setup are from smashing the derailluer but rather sucking up small twigs etc. when riding in New England, especially the fall when everything's covered in a blancket of leaves 2-3" deep and you can't even see the fallen branches.
Anyone know what the diameter is of a standard QR hub? I assume it's 10mm but that's just a guess.
As far as the derailleur hangers go, well, obviously Turner is making crappy hangers. If I were you, I'd find a local machine shop, bring them a hanger, and tell them you want two made out of steel. If they bend, you can bend 'em back, and you have a replacement if you ever need it. Shouldn't cost you more than $20 or so.
My experience is that if you rip the derailleur hanger clean off, it's pretty rare that your derailleur remains intact, so there's really no reason for them to be so soft.
My experience is that if you rip the derailleur hanger clean off, it's pretty rare that your derailleur remains intact, so there's really no reason for them to be so soft.
So Ctfphotos , I assume you've been riding it extensively to state that it works like crap? Or you worked on Schley's bike personaly and you know exactly how he busted things?
I heard about Mr Schley bustin' up 3 Saint derailleurs too. But would he have busted up 3 standard derailleurs too? Who knows. Maybe Schley discovered a design weakness which will be addressed in a design or material change as a running change in the manufacturing. Maybe he just smoked the derailleur really hard 3 times. The guys in the shop who were at the Redbull told me it was the axle or the bolt which broke off which also holds the wheel on. I'm not familiar with Saint yet. Haven't really looked at it much as its not the kind of thing I need.
Sometimes I wonder if giving prototype parts to elite riders is right. Maybe Shimano et al should hand out prototype groups to hacks as well as pros. Seems to me some hacks will be harder on equipment than a really smooth skilled riders.
I heard about Mr Schley bustin' up 3 Saint derailleurs too. But would he have busted up 3 standard derailleurs too? Who knows. Maybe Schley discovered a design weakness which will be addressed in a design or material change as a running change in the manufacturing. Maybe he just smoked the derailleur really hard 3 times. The guys in the shop who were at the Redbull told me it was the axle or the bolt which broke off which also holds the wheel on. I'm not familiar with Saint yet. Haven't really looked at it much as its not the kind of thing I need.
Sometimes I wonder if giving prototype parts to elite riders is right. Maybe Shimano et al should hand out prototype groups to hacks as well as pros. Seems to me some hacks will be harder on equipment than a really smooth skilled riders.
Yep, I agree. Those would be the knock-offs I refered to.
If he's breaking axles, I don't think any sort of external gear system would've been able to hold up.
Oh, and regarding Saint derailleurs, I'm thinking that if you use a solid cromo bolt-up axle in any hub, it should be good enough for the derailleur, right? As it appears the derailleur slides over the axle, then a bolt clamps the derailleur onto the dropout which clamps up the wheel. The only downside to using a solid axle is having to remove the derailleur each time the wheel is removed.
I'm waiting eagerly to see the new stuff, I'll probably buy one derailleur, if I can't get it to work without buying a shimano hub (and rotor, groan) then I'll sell it and go to Rollohf. It seems that Formula are making hubs to suit, they're OEM on Norcos, so hopefully they'll be available aftermarket.
I heard that the new Saints is only reverse shifting too. Is that true? Also, I thought that this new derailleur was just introduced at Interbike this year so has anyone actually seen one in real life? Just wondering what they look and feel like...do they look like they would last? My husband has gone through about 12 derailleur hangers and has only had his bike a little over a year so he is really looking at the Saint.
I believe all of the highest end rear derailleurs (read: XTR and Saint) from Shimano next year are rapid rise only (reverse shifting).
If your husband is tearing off derailleur hangers, a much much cheaper answer is to find a local machine shop and have them duplicate the derailleur hanger in steel. Get two made. First, many derailleur hangers are made of some pretty soft material and will bend if you even look at them hard. Second, if the steel one DOES bend, you can whack it back in place with a hammer.
If the wheel is clamped like that you really don't want the axel breaking. It's a pain to snap a hanger but I could see a nasty accident happening if the axel breaks and the wheel is no longer attached to the frame.Originally posted by Rik
If he's breaking axles, I don't think any sort of external gear system would've been able to hold up.
Oh, and regarding Saint derailleurs, I'm thinking that if you use a solid cromo bolt-up axle in any hub, it should be good enough for the derailleur, right? As it appears the derailleur slides over the axle, then a bolt clamps the derailleur onto the dropout which clamps up the wheel. The only downside to using a solid axle is having to remove the derailleur each time the wheel is removed.
I'm waiting eagerly to see the new stuff, I'll probably buy one derailleur, if I can't get it to work without buying a shimano hub (and rotor, groan) then I'll sell it and go to Rollohf. It seems that Formula are making hubs to suit, they're OEM on Norcos, so hopefully they'll be available aftermarket.
yes Saint will work with other hubs and some non-standard frames i.e. 12mm/150 spacing. Some frames will work, a lot of dh frames won't, but are you going to ride that thing forever? The parts are designed for the majority of production frames on the market like Kona, Specialized, and Intense. I saw a lot of different set ups in Vegas, the parts seem to be fairly adaptable.
Do you wonder why they arent at the stores yet? Hopefully it's because Shimano is making damn sure they are ready for us to smash to peices. My guess is there will be a sudden surge in 10mm thru hubs, I know Hadley makes a sweet one and Formula makes a cheap one, both with 6-bolt rotors. Although once you see inside the Shimano hub you will be intersted, I saw one in Utah around Halloween. Very promising.
Do you wonder why they arent at the stores yet? Hopefully it's because Shimano is making damn sure they are ready for us to smash to peices. My guess is there will be a sudden surge in 10mm thru hubs, I know Hadley makes a sweet one and Formula makes a cheap one, both with 6-bolt rotors. Although once you see inside the Shimano hub you will be intersted, I saw one in Utah around Halloween. Very promising.
They are in stores.
Cove has them.
as well as others.
Hugi makes Saint compatible hubs already in both 135 and 150mm spacing
The axle is part of the derailleur.
They are a new design, that does not mean that they are crap.. or that they are the derailleur to end all.
It only means that they are different.
Shimano has listened to the years of complaints from riders who were tired of snapping off derailleurs.. and the associated damage that occurs..
I know first hand, this past season cost me a grand on parts related to the derailleur/hangar failure alone.
I can't say if the third swing pivot will cure this, I haven't ridden them, I have only seen the saint stuff being ridden.
On a side note..
I don't think Shimano made the Saint out to be indestructible.. do you think that the people would be posting threads relating to a failure of an SRAM... I think not, as we have come to expect failures from traditional derailleur designs...
After looking at the Saint stuff first hand I am starting to lean towards it for 04.. I can't say I will for sure, as it will require an investment, but the parts individually are not ridiculously overpriced.....
Cove has them.
as well as others.
Hugi makes Saint compatible hubs already in both 135 and 150mm spacing
The axle is part of the derailleur.
They are a new design, that does not mean that they are crap.. or that they are the derailleur to end all.
It only means that they are different.
Shimano has listened to the years of complaints from riders who were tired of snapping off derailleurs.. and the associated damage that occurs..
I know first hand, this past season cost me a grand on parts related to the derailleur/hangar failure alone.
I can't say if the third swing pivot will cure this, I haven't ridden them, I have only seen the saint stuff being ridden.
On a side note..
I don't think Shimano made the Saint out to be indestructible.. do you think that the people would be posting threads relating to a failure of an SRAM... I think not, as we have come to expect failures from traditional derailleur designs...
After looking at the Saint stuff first hand I am starting to lean towards it for 04.. I can't say I will for sure, as it will require an investment, but the parts individually are not ridiculously overpriced.....
Yeah it's funny you should say that. Maybe I have...
I finally handled a Saint hub and rear derailleur last night. The way the derailleur is attached is by a steel bolt which passes through the axle and the derailleur is in effect the nut to hold the wheel on. As the bolt is solid steel and the same size as a standard derailleur bolt, it will be stronger than a standard hanger. The normal failure mode with standard attachment is the derailleur snapping or the hanger bending or in some cases the derailleur ripping out of the hanger.
<cough cough>I smell something.. and it smells like bs
