Just draw some arm pit hair on those very same chicas and you have alpine meadows.
And yeah I have no idea where the damn race is either.
Windham USA World Cup ..on or off?!
- Thread starter Tiago79
- Start date
And yeah I have no idea where the damn race is either.
The Squaw World Cup from '98 or '99 is in Transcontinental 2.
steepness definitely is not all it takes and each track is different.
but just as an FYI... schladming averages about 35%, Champary was something like 37% with many sections over 50%.
Maribor is pretty similar to schladming, except schladming gets real steep for the last 3rd (same trail used for FIS WC ski races there).
Ft. william and MSA are steep in spots but not so steep over all.
it really comes down to flow and use of terrain. proven by the fact that all of the tracks mentioned above are classic WC tracks and all completely different.
You can make a great track on a flatter mountain if you have some vertical to work with. it would have to be a bit more fall line so unless the mountain was really tall you would end up with way to short of a run if you made it fast/flowy... or terrible to ride if you tried to make the times longer.
bottom line is that first and foremost you need money to host a WC. Usually this needs to be bonded to the UCI in advance to ensure your event will have financial stability.
this works in Europe and some other countries much better than is the US for reasons mentioned already. A big reason of which is the fact that spcific national or provincial governments will help to fund the events... this does not happen in the US and it falls entirely on the promoter and the sponsors they are able to secure.
we don't even know if Windham was able to get the money... maybe they did. and if that is the case it will still be a good event even if it is not the same as the classic venues mentioned above.
but just as an FYI... schladming averages about 35%, Champary was something like 37% with many sections over 50%.
Maribor is pretty similar to schladming, except schladming gets real steep for the last 3rd (same trail used for FIS WC ski races there).
Ft. william and MSA are steep in spots but not so steep over all.
it really comes down to flow and use of terrain. proven by the fact that all of the tracks mentioned above are classic WC tracks and all completely different.
You can make a great track on a flatter mountain if you have some vertical to work with. it would have to be a bit more fall line so unless the mountain was really tall you would end up with way to short of a run if you made it fast/flowy... or terrible to ride if you tried to make the times longer.
bottom line is that first and foremost you need money to host a WC. Usually this needs to be bonded to the UCI in advance to ensure your event will have financial stability.
this works in Europe and some other countries much better than is the US for reasons mentioned already. A big reason of which is the fact that spcific national or provincial governments will help to fund the events... this does not happen in the US and it falls entirely on the promoter and the sponsors they are able to secure.
we don't even know if Windham was able to get the money... maybe they did. and if that is the case it will still be a good event even if it is not the same as the classic venues mentioned above.
I don't think anyone said the tracks have to be super steep, but a decent grade on the hill certainly doesn't hurt when it comes to keeping the speeds up. The biggest problem with some of the 'flatter' race tracks i've been on isn't their lack of incline but the poor way in which they are laid out, often making it hard to keep the speeds up especially through roots/rock/tech sections. a bunch of my riding buddies just got back from N* and this was their biggest complaint, as was the story at the Windham races this summer. Terrain's there, trails aren't. A well laid out track can get away without being on a big hill (windham '08), but a poorly though out track makes it really obvious(windham '09).
The US Open track is fairly well liked but certainly doesn't qualify as steep though it's super rocky and pretty tech to ride. the average speeds are in the low 20's, about the same as Ft. William and Bromont.
Canberra was 30.1 in '08 and it's fairly flat, oddly enough MSA was only a bit quicker at 31.4mph. Of course the latter will rattle your arms off the bars it gets so rough.
Schladming is way steep but the average speeds aren't that high, 21mph in the rain in '08. I'm guessing the difference in speed from the open turns to the woods is pretty significant?
Maribor on the other hand seems to put it all together. Steep, technical, and in the woods almost the entire run. Hill averaged 33.4mph in '08.
no data on '09, uci stopped printing average winning speeds and went with the speed trap results instead.
exactly. I wouldn't consider the old WC course at Bromont steep. However, it is an awesome course. You are correct, it's about flow with a less steep hill. At the same time, it rewards smoother riders when the hill is less steep and a mistake means loosing a lot of time. Just like the Open course.
True dat
Windham is owned by a group of Wall Street type investors, under 10 I believe. They have plenty of money. I don't believe investors like to lose money.
I know 'em both so it couldn't be too hard.
that's because you're in high school
Stop reminding me.that's because you're in high school
In response to the comments about me judging all US tracks from riding at Mammoth. This is not the case atall. I didn't make it very clear, but I was just using it as an example.
I've watched plenty of videos of National Champs, US Races etc and I fully understand that footage never does the place justice atall. The States certainly does hold some great tracks as has been pointed out. But likewise the footage of European national and WC tracks doesn't either - and there is a large difference between the two (generally speaking!).
So, no, I have not based my impression on all American tracks by riding at one resort, although I agree, this is how my first post made it appear.
Hope this clears things up. You're all more than willing to jump on the bandwagon and shoot me down. But there's nothing that I've said here that could cause any offence so please let's not get personal. I'm not poorly informed, and I admit that my first post made it appear that way. So sorry.
Ben
I've watched plenty of videos of National Champs, US Races etc and I fully understand that footage never does the place justice atall. The States certainly does hold some great tracks as has been pointed out. But likewise the footage of European national and WC tracks doesn't either - and there is a large difference between the two (generally speaking!).
So, no, I have not based my impression on all American tracks by riding at one resort, although I agree, this is how my first post made it appear.
Not sure what you mean by this either? My point is that the cash incentive has to be there more for the USA than it does for us Europeans. It was a poor comparison, but not misguided. And please, no offence was meant by any of this.
What? Exposure! - as in publicity, getting the sponsors' name out there. I was not talking about exposure to the elements or terrain. This is not what sponsors look for. My point was, from the videos I have seen, and the resorts I have been to, the US tracks would be much better from a sponsor's P.O.V than a lot of European tracks. Hence, like I said in my first post, something doesn't quite add up. Ie. From this, you'd expect the cash to come in.
Hope this clears things up. You're all more than willing to jump on the bandwagon and shoot me down. But there's nothing that I've said here that could cause any offence so please let's not get personal. I'm not poorly informed, and I admit that my first post made it appear that way. So sorry.
Ben
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My big problem with the UCI is that they are still confined to one planet. Red Bull needs to pony up and have a race on the moon.
Times must be tough if they are in fact going with this place.
I can only imagine the pms, emails and phone calls in response to this post.
Awsome, if true that "things" have been worked out. Windham is only 45 min from home and less from Plattekill Bike Park.
keeping fingers crossed
I'd love to see a us WC...will be there for sure!
Agreed - I remain hopeful! If Windham still has it, we should all get behind them 110%.I can only imagine the pms, emails and phone calls in response to this post.
Awsome, if true that "things" have been worked out. Windham is only 45 min from home and less from Plattekill Bike Park.
keeping fingers crossed
Agreed, hopefully with enough us support we can consistently get one in the states
Agreed.
For all the
in this thread, if they are indeed going to have a World Cup, those of you guys up there in the know should do whatever you can to help them get things dialed.I was there. I had hoped to qualify for it but got hurt early in the season. I walked all the way up from the bottom and then back down so I got to see the whole track.
I believe they cut it just for that race and some sections toward the bottom in the trees (were there's dirt) were still pretty raw. There were a few really steep sections and one that almost everyone struggled to figure out. With some modern touches, it would definitely be WC caliber today.
Spectator turnout wasn't great. It also pissed off people that they fenced off the expo area and charged $10 to get in. Charging to be a venue was unheard of back then. We snuck in but the rent-a-nazis kicked us out for not having wristbands.
If I get ambitious I can sketch out the course on a Squaw map and post it since I'm pretty sure I remember where it all went. I also have a lot of pictures. Of course, it was a pre-digital age so that will take some work to dig them out and scan them.
AmeriCAN!
^ That 98' squaw track was the gnarliest track on the circuit that year, it put a lot of people in the hurt locker. I did buy a duct tape wallet of a kid who was making them in the parking lot, coolest wallet ever, was selling them for $20. I am sure he paid for his pit entry easily.
Who says it's about tough times? My guess is that the UCI big wigs just want an excuse to hit up the big apple for a t-shirt and catch a few off Broadway shows, maybe a cameo in the background of the Today Show.
Because every legitimate source regarding that venue says it is in no way capable of hosting a world cup...that it was better left for something GESTEV could put on. If they are in fact the venue of choice, here is to hoping they get their game on and put on an incredible event.Who says it's about tough times? My guess is that the UCI big wigs just want an excuse to hit up the big apple for a t-shirt and catch a few off Broadway shows, maybe a cameo in the background of the Today Show.
I know i would volunteer time to see that they can at least put together a sick course. do you guys think they would use free help if it was offered?
I fully agree as the U.S. and the east coast does have venues that would be great for a World Cup. I can think of another venue that would be perfect
Platty is too gnar for those pretty boy world cup ridersI can think of another venue that would be perfect
we all know there are plenty of suitable venues......maybe you should be focusing on the real issues, like corporate support and sponsorship....
We need to get Steve Jobs on a downhill bike.
I hope it is true... according to this quote, it would be a shame to lose the course.
One more time:
The course is not and has never been the problem. UCI people walked the course a while back and told the mountain management, "that's your world cup course" It is a combination of 08's pro/ex top and spt/beg bottom with a few minor changes.
I suspect they did not want anything too "gnar" a few days before the Worlds up north. Believe a much more difficult course was talked about, FYI the course designers/workers are all regular riders at Plattekill and love it tough and steep. They all have great passion for the sport.
We spent some time with Windham management at MSA and the were blown away at the scope of the venue and the obvious budget. I pleaded with them to attend Bromont to see thye other end of the spectrum. It is amazing at the difference in ammenities at the two mountains. Bromont sticks the race on the backside of the mountain with nothing more than dirt parking lots, a lift and a small building (shack), but still pulls off a great race.
The course is not and has never been the problem. UCI people walked the course a while back and told the mountain management, "that's your world cup course" It is a combination of 08's pro/ex top and spt/beg bottom with a few minor changes.
I suspect they did not want anything too "gnar" a few days before the Worlds up north. Believe a much more difficult course was talked about, FYI the course designers/workers are all regular riders at Plattekill and love it tough and steep. They all have great passion for the sport.
We spent some time with Windham management at MSA and the were blown away at the scope of the venue and the obvious budget. I pleaded with them to attend Bromont to see thye other end of the spectrum. It is amazing at the difference in ammenities at the two mountains. Bromont sticks the race on the backside of the mountain with nothing more than dirt parking lots, a lift and a small building (shack), but still pulls off a great race.
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Regarding Squaw--I was there for the world cup shooting photos for the media at the time so I walked it many times.
I recall arriving and walking in the pits talking to a few mechanics/riders and everyone seems a bit scared (Sh*tless) of the course. Two pros twisted or broke their ankles during the course walk as it was steep and loose in parts.
It started off going down a rock pile basically with cliff exposure, on to a fast fireroad, then some normal "DH" track stuff (rocks, roots, dirt, trees) some whoops and drops (fairly big for the time).
Then it hit a crazy rockgarden (virtually no dirt, just piles of rocks) under the lift line that consumed a few riders. Then into some tight turns; one that had a snow fence in it to catch the riders from falling off a drop/cliff thing. Then finally into the bottom with loamy dirt, some switchbacks and soft stuff/gravel at the finish. Truly a diverse course and I know with some modernizing could be top world cup caliber.
I've got hundreds of slides (photos) from that even somewhere around here.
Here's an excerpt from a mountainzone article at the time:
"The course at Squaw Valley is several things. One, it's brand-spankin' new - riders putting their mark on virgin dirt when training began Thursday. Second, it's steep. Really, really steep. Third, it's technical. Really, really technical. Add it up and you get (we're not bashful in proclaiming) is the toughest course in the Western Hemisphere (wherever that is)... one of the all-time hardest tracks in the world.
Riders were falling all over the place during competition, with Chausson saying that the winner is the one who falls the least. Even Nico admitted it would be nearly impossible to have a clean run on this non-stop, unrelenting rock chute of an elevator shaft. Whew! It hurts our feet just remembering."
Full link:
http://classic.mountainzone.com/mtbiking/99/worldcup/squaw/
I recall arriving and walking in the pits talking to a few mechanics/riders and everyone seems a bit scared (Sh*tless) of the course. Two pros twisted or broke their ankles during the course walk as it was steep and loose in parts.
It started off going down a rock pile basically with cliff exposure, on to a fast fireroad, then some normal "DH" track stuff (rocks, roots, dirt, trees) some whoops and drops (fairly big for the time).
Then it hit a crazy rockgarden (virtually no dirt, just piles of rocks) under the lift line that consumed a few riders. Then into some tight turns; one that had a snow fence in it to catch the riders from falling off a drop/cliff thing. Then finally into the bottom with loamy dirt, some switchbacks and soft stuff/gravel at the finish. Truly a diverse course and I know with some modernizing could be top world cup caliber.
I've got hundreds of slides (photos) from that even somewhere around here.
Here's an excerpt from a mountainzone article at the time:
"The course at Squaw Valley is several things. One, it's brand-spankin' new - riders putting their mark on virgin dirt when training began Thursday. Second, it's steep. Really, really steep. Third, it's technical. Really, really technical. Add it up and you get (we're not bashful in proclaiming) is the toughest course in the Western Hemisphere (wherever that is)... one of the all-time hardest tracks in the world.
Riders were falling all over the place during competition, with Chausson saying that the winner is the one who falls the least. Even Nico admitted it would be nearly impossible to have a clean run on this non-stop, unrelenting rock chute of an elevator shaft. Whew! It hurts our feet just remembering."
Full link:
http://classic.mountainzone.com/mtbiking/99/worldcup/squaw/
awesome info man, thanks for sharing.
That sounds orgasmic. Find those photos ASAP! <3
UPDATE:Windham USA World Cup
..on or off?!
December 2nd, 2009 @ 2:40 PM
Update: Agent X recieved an email stating that Windham is ON for 2010, more news soon.
This is not confirmed, but weve heard rumours on the grapevine that the USA round of the World Cup at Windham might possibly be cancelled. If the rumours are true, it means we have a fully european World Cup series for 2010, that is unless another venue replaces it. After the 8 round series this year, will it be too drastic a change to go to a 5 round series for next year? The round at Windham was scheduled to be the final round too, so its a big story if the rumours are true. It wouldnt surprise us here in the office if Bromont came in to replace Windham. With the World Championships being at Mont-Sainte-Anne, Bromont would be a logical change.
More news as we hear it. Keep it locked.
December 2nd, 2009 @ 2:40 PM
Update: Agent X recieved an email stating that Windham is ON for 2010, more news soon.
This is not confirmed, but weve heard rumours on the grapevine that the USA round of the World Cup at Windham might possibly be cancelled. If the rumours are true, it means we have a fully european World Cup series for 2010, that is unless another venue replaces it. After the 8 round series this year, will it be too drastic a change to go to a 5 round series for next year? The round at Windham was scheduled to be the final round too, so its a big story if the rumours are true. It wouldnt surprise us here in the office if Bromont came in to replace Windham. With the World Championships being at Mont-Sainte-Anne, Bromont would be a logical change.
More news as we hear it. Keep it locked.
I thought that I heard something at on of the races along the likes of Blue Wolf Events (NMBS) would be running the show for next years WC. But I could be wrong.
Good News: It's still on. Officially it's never been off.
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but it did make for great internet rumors