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Wire taps

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Granted, the last couple of paragraphs are bombastic partisan BS, but the majority is spot on.

WHY WE DON'T TRUST YOU WITH NATIONAL SECURITY
January 4, 2006


It seems the Bush administration — being a group of sane, informed adults — has been secretly tapping Arab terrorists without warrants.

During the CIA raids in Afghanistan in early 2002 that captured Abu Zubaydah and his associates, the government seized computers, cell phones and personal phone books. Soon after the raids, the National Security Agency began trying to listen to calls placed to the phone numbers found in al-Qaida Rolodexes.

That was true even if you were "an American citizen" making the call from U.S. territory — like convicted al-Qaida associate Iyman Faris who, after being arrested, confessed to plotting to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge. If you think the government should not be spying on people like Faris, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

By intercepting phone calls to people on Zubaydah's speed-dial, the NSA arrested not only "American citizen" Faris, but other Arab terrorists, including al-Qaida members plotting to bomb British pubs and train stations.

The most innocent-sounding target of the NSA's spying cited by the Treason Times was "an Iranian-American doctor in the South who came under suspicion because of what one official described as dubious ties to Osama bin Laden." Whatever softening adjectives the Times wants to put in front of the words "ties to Osama bin Laden," we're still left with those words — "ties to Osama bin Laden." The government better be watching that person.

The Democratic Party has decided to express indignation at the idea that an American citizen who happens to be a member of al-Qaida is not allowed to have a private conversation with Osama bin Laden. If they run on that in 2008, it could be the first time in history a Republican president takes even the District of Columbia.

On this one, I'm pretty sure Americans are going with the president.

If the Democrats had any brains, they'd distance themselves from the cranks demanding Bush's impeachment for listening in on terrorists' phone calls to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. (Then again, if they had any brains, they'd be Republicans.)

To the contrary! It is Democrats like Sen. Barbara Boxer who are leading the charge to have Bush impeached for spying on people with Osama's cell phone number.

That's all you need to know about the Democrats to remember that they can't be trusted with national security. (That and Jimmy Carter.)

Thanks to the Treason Times' exposure of this highly classified government program, admitted terrorists like Iyman Faris are going to be appealing their convictions. Perhaps they can call Democratic senators as expert witnesses to testify that it was illegal for the Bush administration to eavesdrop on their completely private calls to al-Zarqawi.

Democrats and other traitors have tried to couch their opposition to the NSA program in civil libertarian terms, claiming Bush could have gone to the court created by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and gotten warrants for the interceptions.

The Treason Times reported FISA virtually rubber-stamps warrant requests all the time. As proof, the Times added this irrelevant statistic: In 2004, "1,754 warrants were approved." No one thought to ask how many requests were rejected.

Over and over we heard how the FISA court never turns down an application for a warrant. USA Today quoted liberal darling and author James Bamford saying: "The FISA court is as big a rubber stamp as you can possibly get within the federal judiciary." He "wondered why Bush sought the warrantless searches, since the FISA court rarely rejects search requests," said USA Today.

Put aside the question of why it's so vitally important to get a warrant from a rubber-stamp court if it's nothing but an empty formality anyway. After all the ballyhoo about how it was duck soup to get a warrant from FISA, I thought it was pretty big news when it later turned out that the FISA court had been denying warrant requests from the Bush administration like never before. According to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, the FISA court "modified more wiretap requests from the Bush administration than from the four previous presidential administrations combined."

In the 20 years preceding the attack of 9/11, the FISA court did not modify — much less reject — one single warrant request. But starting in 2001, the judges "modified 179 of the 5,645 requests for court-ordered surveillance by the Bush administration." In the years 2003 and 2004, the court issued 173 "substantive modifications" to warrant requests and rejected or "deferred" six warrant requests outright.

What would a Democrat president have done at that point? Apparently, the answer is: Sit back and wait for the next terrorist attack. Also, perhaps as a gesture of inclusion and tolerance, hold an Oval Office reception for the suspected al-Qaida operatives. After another terrorist attack, I'm sure a New York Times reporter could explain to the victims' families that, after all, the killer's ties to al-Qaida were merely "dubious" and the FISA court had a very good reason for denying the warrant request.

Every once in a while the nation needs little reminder of why the Democrats can't be trusted with national security. This is today's lesson.

COPYRIGHT 2006 ANN COULTER
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,519
20,326
Sleazattle
The article really doesn't answer the question why warrants were not issued or requested. The reasoning that a warrant is never turned down is not a good reason, sounds more like the requests were just good requests. The problem is not the wiretapping itself but going outside the law to do so. Without the checks and balances of the only thing stopping an administration from say wiretapping political enemies is their own good judgment, and that is not good democracy. It has been shown time and time again that leadership push the limits of their power no matter their political orientation. Leaving out the checks on power will eventual let that power fall into the wrong hands.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Westy said:
The article really doesn't answer the question why warrants were not issued or requested.
Bingo. I love that Bush has made this about whether or not the government should be wire-tapping American citizens... that's not in question at all. What is in question is whether there should be due process.

The existing system allows for RETROACTIVE approval. Under the current system you can ALREADY tap without permission and only have to get approval within 2 days. So it's not even a question of expediency. It's a secret court, so it's not a question of confidentiality or security. Tell me a situation where this is NOT ENOUGH freedom for the CIA/FBI/NSA.

What it comes down to, is that the only reason the current structure would not work for you is if you are abusing power for political, not military, ends.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,699
1,750
chez moi
Exactly. If what they're doing is so easily described to us laypeople as an obvious necessity, why no warrants? I'm sure a judge would see them the same way we do if it's so simple a case.

And the 'bureaucratic red tape' example doesn't really fly for me. This isn't trying to fill out form 89234987B V. 2 to order an obscure part for an Abrams tank...this is the highest exective-level stuff out there. If Bush can find the time to write an executive order to bypass the warrant, he can surely take the time to personally expeditite the process if it's so important for these specific warrants.

All you need to 'search' is probable cause (in law enforcement; I'm certain that in the intelligence circles the standards are the same or less). Finding your phone # on Osama's rolodex is a pretty simple case for it.

There may be super-secret considerations to which I'm not party, but the whole thing still sort of smells like BS to me.

Anyhow, yeah. The problem isn't listening to potential AQ members...it's setting the precedent that the President can bypass the system to use gov't assets at his personal request with no oversight. There's a reason we have checks and balances.

MD
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
ohio said:
What it comes down to, is that the only reason the current structure would not work for you is if you are abusing power for political, not military, ends.
Oh c'mon. Bush believes in Jesus. Why would he lie?
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Silver said:
It's even lower for FISA warrants.

Here's a findlaw editorial from 2003.

http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/ramasastry/20030305.html
Not to mention that wiretaps can be done for 72 hours without even asking for a warrant and other provisions that allow warrants to be obtained post facto.

Here's my question: why do we even have the court/warrant system if all the executive branch has to do is say they don't want to use it any more? From all the Cheneys, Coulters etc of the world, I have yet to get an answer to this question. Not that I think this would happen, but taken to the logical extreme, wouldn't this be like the president bypassing courts in criminal trials and saying that he can proclaim someone guilty in order to speed up the process?

Security is not an absolute that must be pursued at the expense of all else. Like every other objective, it is a compromise. If we have to allow our civil liberties to be taken away in the name of security, what exactly are we protecting? I thought WE were fighting for freedom and democracy...
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
JRogers said:
Not that I think this would happen, but taken to the logical extreme, wouldn't this be like the president bypassing courts in criminal trials and saying that he can proclaim someone guilty in order to speed up the process?
Whatever do you mean?

Like a combatant who's some sort of enemy?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,356
2,467
Pōneke
And remember since 9/11 3 or 4 (I forget) warrants were actually turned down for being "too over-reaching". For a system that liberal anyway, you have to wonder who and what they wanted to tap with those requests.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,976
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
MikeD said:
Exactly. If what they're doing is so easily described to us laypeople as an obvious necessity, why no warrants? I'm sure a judge would see them the same way we do if it's so simple a case.

And the 'bureaucratic red tape' example doesn't really fly for me. This isn't trying to fill out form 89234987B V. 2 to order an obscure part for an Abrams tank...this is the highest exective-level stuff out there. If Bush can find the time to write an executive order to bypass the warrant, he can surely take the time to personally expeditite the process if it's so important for these specific warrants.

All you need to 'search' is probable cause (in law enforcement; I'm certain that in the intelligence circles the standards are the same or less). Finding your phone # on Osama's rolodex is a pretty simple case for it.

There may be super-secret considerations to which I'm not party, but the whole thing still sort of smells like BS to me.

Anyhow, yeah. The problem isn't listening to potential AQ members...it's setting the precedent that the President can bypass the system to use gov't assets at his personal request with no oversight. There's a reason we have checks and balances.

MD

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Reading between the lines in what Bush has been sayin, I'd have to say ' need too quickly to mess with bureaucratic red tape' is double speak 'some warrants might get turned down because they don't have a ghost of probable cause'. As has been mentioned, the warrant from FISA are retroactive, up to 72 hours, and the judges selected are on 24 hour call. If a law enforcement agency is so incompetent they can't file a request for a warrant within 72 hours of starting a wire tap, how in the hell do they think they'll be able to use the information they obtain to prevent anything.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
A poll....

Poll: Bush Justified in Wiretapping

Americans overwhelmingly support President Bush's authorization to the National Security Agency to tap the private conversations of U.S. citizens to search for evidence of terrorist activity, an exclusive NewsMax.com poll reveals.

In one of the largest responses to a NewsMax poll ever, more than 150,000 people across the Internet have made their opinions known about this controversy.

And they resoundingly say that the President was justified in taking this action to protect America.

Here is a breakdown of the poll results for several key questions:

1) Has President Bush been justified in tapping the conversation of U.S. citizens?
Justified - 80%
Not Justified - 20%

2) Do you believe the President must have a court-approved warrant to conduct a wiretap?
Yes - 23%
No - 72%
Not Sure - 5%

3) Do you believe President Bush's claim that he undertook this action to protect America?
Yes - 83%
No - 17%

4) How would you rate media coverage about President Bush's actions?
Fair - 20%
Unfair - 80%
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
N8 said:
A poll....
That is not a scientific poll nor can its results be considered anything but a reflection of the readers of NewsMax. So 80% of NewsMax readers agree with the President. The President could crap on his desk and call it art and NewsMax would be right there with him.

IF this was a Democratic president doing the samething the NewsMax poll would be reversed.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
DRB said:
That is not a scientific poll nor can its results be considered anything but a reflection of the readers of NewsMax. So 80% of NewsMax readers agree with the President. The President could crap on his desk and call it art and NewsMax would be right there with him.

IF this was a Democratic president doing the samething the NewsMax poll would be reversed.

Yep, thereby further illustrating the stupidity of all polls...
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
N8 said:
Yep, thereby further illustrating the stupidity of all polls...
No what it points out that internet polls (which are called self-selected or convenience polls) are stupid and lack credibility. Polls based on probability sampling with calculated error margins are for the most part accurate and relevant.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
DRB said:
No what it points out that internet polls (which are called self-selected or convenience polls) are stupid and lack credibility. Polls based on probability sampling with calculated error margins are for the most part accurate and relevant.

Yes, we saw that in the 'exit polls' didn't we...
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
N8 said:
Oh, I think the ACLU would be all over the place if there was a victim...
The point was that the ACLU would never know if there's a victim or not.

They (the ACLU) are fighting the government's assertion that it has the right to secretly hold people.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Old Man G Funk said:
The point was that the ACLU would never know if there's a victim or not.

They (the ACLU) are fighting the government's assertion that it has the right to secretly hold people.

Well, they managed to get the Gitmo people's names... seems to be it would be a lot easier to find someone being oppressed within the country.

I mean there has just gotta be a oppressed Patriot Act victim posterboy somewhere...
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
N8 said:
Well, they managed to get the Gitmo people's names... seems to be it would be a lot easier to find someone being oppressed within the country.

I mean there has just gotta be a oppressed Patriot Act victim posterboy somewhere...
It should also be noted that the administration's actions were above and beyond the patriot act. The patriot act was put in place to allow the admin. to get fast-tracked warrants for surveillance, yet the admin. decided that those warrants weren't even necessary, contrary to all established law in this country. Further, the admin. decided that PETA was a security risk, as well as other groups like anti-war groups. They weren't looking for terrorists, they were looking to spy on groups that didn't agree with them.

Also, does Jose Padilla ring a bell?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Old Man G Funk said:
It should also be noted that the administration's actions were above and beyond the patriot act. The patriot act was put in place to allow the admin. to get fast-tracked warrants for surveillance, yet the admin. decided that those warrants weren't even necessary, contrary to all established law in this country. Further, the admin. decided that PETA was a security risk, as well as other groups like anti-war groups. They weren't looking for terrorists, they were looking to spy on groups that didn't agree with them.

Also, does Jose Padilla ring a bell?
PETA and ELF et al have terroristic elements in them.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
N8 said:
PETA and ELF et al have terroristic elements in them.
Yeah, those PETA people are running around with the Islamic Fundamentalists all the time!

How about this article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/19/AR2005121901777.html

Here's a nice excerpt from it:

The ACLU said it received 2,357 pages of files on PETA, Greenpeace, the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and the ACLU itself. One file referring to the committee included a contact list for students and peace activists who attended a 2002 conference at Stanford University aimed at ending sanctions then in place in Iraq.
Yeah, you have to look out for those Stanford students that were against the sanctions in Iraq.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
N8 said:
Yes... the NRA is always breaking into firearms shops, freeing the poor little guns back into the wild and burning them down.
They certainly fight efforts to keep guns out of the hands of children, thus potentially training their minions to terrorize. Certainly one should be more scared of gun-toting NRA zealots than of hippie, sit-in conducting peace-niks.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Seriously now do you really have a problem with wire tapping people who were calling or were called by known members of Al-Queda?

They did'nt tap my phone line (though if they did all they would hear is my Grandma asking me over for dinner and me telling my fiance I love her) they didn't tap yours. The tapped the conversations between terrorists and people that terrorists were talking to.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Damn True said:
Seriously now do you really have a problem with wire tapping people who were calling or were called by known members of Al-Queda?

They did'nt tap my phone line (though if they did all they would hear is my Grandma asking me over for dinner and me telling my fiance I love her) they didn't tap yours. The tapped the conversations between terrorists and people that terrorists were talking to.
I do have a problem with them thinking they can do it without a warrant. Especially since the Patriot Act was brought into existence to allow them to do it quickly and secretly FOR THIS SPECIFIC PURPOSE.

Also, they didn't keep their wiretaps to just people receiving calls from Al Qaeda. That's what we've been talking about. They've also targeted PETA, anti-war groups, Greenpeace, the ACLU, etc.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Damn True said:
Can you document that, because Ive heard nothing to indicate that there is actual knowledge of such taps, merely assertions that it "could" have happened.
Already done. If you read the comments in this thread you would know that.