[BullBiker]

Woggle Bear's thread on a PITA customer kinda migrated to working on POS bikes, so I thought a new thread was in order:

The shop where I work specializes in road bikes and specifically tri-bikes. About 50-55% of sales are in those two categories. The remainder consists of mt(15%), and comfort(25%) and very few BMX bikes.

Repairs are a large portion of the gross sales for the shop. Even though a large % of our bikes are high end, we probably have a 15:1 POS:EXPENSIVE bike ratio of repairs.

As much as we hate the X-Mart bikes, they sustain a constant income for small shops. If they made them better, we would have less in for repair. So, the POS are critical for keeping us mechanics fed. The nice bikes are well made, and if properly assembled and regularly tuned, need very little maintenance. A cable replacement here and there, maybe wrapping some new tape, new tires...etc. Nothing major.

This just got me thinking, how many other mechanics have a love/hate relationship with the POS bikes of the world. And what are some other thoughts/opinions on working on them.

L8R

 

[Merwin5_10]

You are right about POS bikes keeping a shop in business. They are always breaking. It does get frustrating when the customer just can't understand how their bike broke again (not the same problem/part) when they just spent $60, $80, $100 or whatever to fix their bike. At some point they should realize that they are spending more to fix the bike than they did on the bike. Then hopefully they will realize the fundamental nature of POS bikes;

YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD!

 

[EBasil]

The shop I used to while away my time at was in the same shopping center as a Target and a Toys R Us. Although the toy store bikes certainly were a source of business, it was a recurrent theme that the owners thought we were ripping them off when they found out how much a derailleur or new rear wheel or etc... cost. After a while, it starts to grind you to be thought of as a scammer, even if the poor dingbats had no reason to know what a real bike should have cost them.

We figured out a response: we'd tell them we could fix it, but that the repair guys at the store they bought it might "warranty" the problem. In fact, Target would often take a broken bike as a return, and the ones that trickled back to our store after being told "you gotta go to a bike shop" were pre-tenderized for the XTR stuff we told them they had to buy...

 

[PsychO!1]

I was a service manager for 10 years...

I took great pride in how well I could get a POS running, no rattles, smooth cables, brakes tight (or as good as steel caliper on steel rim brakes can get), and wheels relativly straight (amazing what a little stomping will do to a cheap steel wheel).

Most of these bikes were just assembled wrong and had to be done right. A few were seriously abused and did require parts...which usually exceeded the value of the bike. Those were the customers that didn't get it. The rest were usually pretty pleased with there smooth, rattle free, POS.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[ChrisRobin]

I don't work on the bikes at my shop, I sell them. I know the mechs in the back bitch and complain sometimes with they have to screw around with some 20yr old, corroded, POS...I laugh because I don't have to touch it. It's a pain for me to try to explain to why some bikes are $100 while others are $500...etc.

Then I ask: "Do you play golf? (there's a posh golf club nearby). How much were your golf clubs?

"Do you like to fish??? How much was your fishing rod?"

I haven't used this one yet...it's for when someone haggles me for a deal:

"Do you do groceries?? Every week? How many years now? Do you ask for a deal on food?"

 

[Mtn Pete]

Originally posted by ChrisRobin


"Do you do groceries?? Every week? How many years now? Do you ask for a deal on food?"

Thats a good one, Ill see if I can use it this week at the shop.

My favorite thing to do is take the bike back form the customer and wheel it to the back, saying that this is obviously too much bike for you.

 

[BullBiker]

I've used the golf club analogy.

I've also used the car analogy. This works at our shop because we have large storefront windows and can see what car the person drives up in.

If they're getting out of a sports car, luxury car or new SUV, I ask them why they're not driving a GEO or a Hyundai.

I've also used the computer analogy when it comes to someone wanting to trade-in a bike.

Back to POS bikes. I usually tell the customer that they've bought a "Disposable" bike. It's not worth fixing other than changing tubes and tires. Anything else will cost more to fix than the bike is worth.

Some POS bikes are totally ruined. I'm located on the Gulf Coast of FL and we get a lot of people that ride their bikes along the beach (sometimes in the water) and then wonder where all this rust came from. We spend a lot of time replacing rusted chains and usually go through a couple cans of PB Blaster a month.

L8R

 

[SpasticJack]

Nothing like a day of polishing turds to make you appreciate high-end, high quality gear. I do not miss that part of wrenching in a shop.

 

[Element]

I'm located on the Gulf Coast of FL and we get a lot of people that ride their bikes along the beach (sometimes in the water) and then wonder where all this rust came from. We spend a lot of time replacing rusted chains and usually go through a couple cans of PB Blaster a month.

L8R [/B]

BullBiker:


Where are you in Florida? Which shop do you work at?

I live in the Fort Walton Beach/Destin area. Just seeing how far away you were

 

[FRzealot]

Ahhh, POS.

There are two basic types of people with decrepit bikes.

1. The type who can only afford it and uses it as transportation.

2. Everybody else.

It never bothers me (hasn't for 9+ years as a mech) to work on a bike for someone who needs it- from 'I don't have time to drive my daughter to school, so please overhaul this murray" to " dude, I live in a commune and don't have a job- could you fix my sturmey-archer?"

These people are why I'm here- It's great to work on XTR all day and share knowledge with those who are on the trails every day. However, in order to find value and meaning in my work, I need to feel that I provide a necessary service. So helping people out with whatever needs to be done to a POS is a great thing, conditional to that person actually NEEDING it.

But the people who are "disposable-culture" minded, the type that buys what they need at the cheapest price possible, regardless of what consequences may come- these are usually best turned away. (mass generalization #!)

(mass generalization #2) Shops don't make money on these repairs. You can charge an hourly rate and moderately improve the bike, making modest profit, but to uphold a certain level of quality in your shop, the repair is not cost-effective. Only if you can make the bike something you yourself could ride should you take the repair in.

Better to donate the Huffy to someone who can't afford to eat and spend $250-$300 on the cheapest thing your IBD sells- at least that has standardized parts( *cough* sometimes *cough* )



Outspoken Socialist Mechanics Local 302

 

[edoz]

POS bikes aren't always from Wal-Mart. There are no shortage of tools that will fork out 3000$ for a bike and not want to pay 6$ for chain lube. So when they finally bring the bike in after a season of racing or usually triathlons, (tri-geeks are bad about maintenance) the stem is frozen in the fork, the seatpost is stuck, and the cable housing ferrules are corroded to the cable stops. Of course, they don't want to pay very much to have it fixed. I actually had one lady who expected me to warranty her Cannondale, because the seatpost was frozen in the frame. It just proves the point that jackasses are not limited to a certain socio-economic level.

Don't get me wrong, I get plenty of Huffys. Our shop is a mile from a Wally World. Usually I tell them I won't work on it unless I can make it completely ridable and safe. This most often comes to quite a bit, and they either leave, or buy a real bike.

 

[sanjuro]

I haven't used this one yet...it's for when someone haggles me for a deal:

"Do you do groceries?? Every week? How many years now? Do you ask for a deal on food?"

"If I went to five supermarkets, would any of them cut me a deal? If I went to five bike stores, how many of them would give me a better price? Why don't you tell me the names of the shops so you could save me the trouble of shopping around?"

 

[binary visions]

Nice resurrection.

This line of reasoning is stupid.

Groceries are commodities that everyone needs. Bike shops are service centers that are servicing a niche community, AND there are cheaper ways to buy parts online.

All bike shops have is their customer service. Comparing yourselves to grocery stores is delusional .

I understand that everyone wants something for nothing. And if you don't want to give a deal, then don't give a deal. But don't act like it's so unreasonable that people ask for discounts - you are NOT providing a commodity that is necessary for people to live. A lot of niche communities discount for good customers.

 

[sanjuro]

This is my negotiation technique: I gauge how likely this product will sell vs how much of a discount the buyer wants.

For example, I never negotiate on mountain bikes under $350. They are most popular bikes, and I simply say, "I'm sorry I can't give you a discount. We have this marked down pretty low, and it will sell at this price. If you don't buy it, someone else will, and probably very soon."

It works in opposite too. Wait until September, and scope out the $2500 and up bikes. Give a ridiculous offer and say, "Well, this is what I can afford. If you don't sell it to me now, you'll probably won't see another buyer until next year."

 

[Wordbiker]

Just yesterday a lady and her entourage came into the store with three POS kids bikes that were not only crap in the first place, but had been abused and left outdoors through what appeared to be a couple Colorado Winters. She said they had been given to her and she wanted them fixed. I gave her my now practiced line delivered with respect and a touch of sorrow....

"Ma'am, I am afraid that often with bicycles of this type, the repair costs will often exceed the replacement cost."

Sure enough, when we called her with a quote, she didn't even come back to pick them up, dumping the bikes on us to dispose of.

I am also of the mind that a working bicycle can serve a purpose to someone, be it basic transportation or just the joy of riding we all share a love for. I work on them all with the same pride and professionalism, but the mechanical aspect isn't what I have a problem with....the price is.

These bikes absolutely ruin the consumer's perception of value regarding bicycles, and further propitiate the myth that bicycles are just throwaway toys for children, not vehicles with every right to the road as cars. It is tough enough for bicycle shops to stay in business as it is, and it truly pains me to tell the people that came in that their previous purchase of this "full-scale model of a bicycle" was a very bad decision. That makes us look like either crooks or opportunists. As was pointed out already, these bikes require more service than quality bikes, or are in need of service from the outset due to poor or incorrect assembly, and no provisions for service are made. Sure, the customer might be said to be at fault for buying junk and expecting performance, but who looks bad when the flaws are pointed out and the costs calculated? WalMart? China? Nope, they conveniently never have to face the customer directly. It is the LBS that is honestly trying to serve their community by guiding them in their choices towards quality equipment that serves their needs, and by backing up the products that they represent.

Thankfully, a lot of clients do understand this. Most folks have the common sense to realize a Yugo is not a BMW, and that you make a quality decision within your budget, but the service included with an LBS bike (we offer a year's free service) is intangible, and often comes off about as well as a pitch for an extended warranty in comparison. It looks even worse when a bicycle is purchased from us and due to the better quality doesn't even need to be brought in within the service period. The customer feels that the service costs should be in equal proportion to the purchase price, and that we are just gouging. I can't say I blame them...no, I blame those that are dumping these pseudocycles onto the market at undercutting prices with no accountability whatsoever.

Instead of enacting more anti-dumping laws that have yet to reign in this problem, we could require that every bicycle sold in the country had a service contract provided by the seller. The LBS's wouldn't be harmed in the least as they already offer it, and the big box stores would have to be a bit more discerning about what sort of junk they're pawning off on people to risk their lives riding on the streets and trails. At the very least, require a toll-free complaint hotline pasted on every top tube...and include a Chinese-English dictionary.

 

[stinkyboy]

Sure enough, when we called her with a quote, she didn't even come back to pick them up, dumping the bikes on us to dispose of.

Are there enough parts to salvage one working bike?

A less fortunate kid prolly doesn't care if it has XTR components or not...

 

[binary visions]

Instead of enacting more anti-dumping laws that have yet to reign in this problem, we could require that every bicycle sold in the country had a service contract provided by the seller. The LBS's wouldn't be harmed in the least as they already offer it, and the big box stores would have to be a bit more discerning about what sort of junk they're pawning off on people to risk their lives riding on the streets and trails. At the very least, require a toll-free complaint hotline pasted on every top tube...and include a Chinese-English dictionary.

I appreciate your outrage to a certain extent, in that you simply want people on quality bikes and for them to understand what a bike can really be.

However, I see people every single day of my life that have no other form of transportation than that crappy Wal-Mart bike. Just because a nicer bike might be a better idea, doesn't mean everyone can afford it. The "junk they're pawning off on people" is sometimes the best that these people can afford, and they're actually opening up options for these people who use them to get to work, get to the store, get to church...

These junk bikes serve a very valid purpose.

 

[sanjuro]

I appreciate your outrage to a certain extent, in that you simply want people on quality bikes and for them to understand what a bike can really be.

However, I see people every single day of my life that have no other form of transportation than that crappy Wal-Mart bike. Just because a nicer bike might be a better idea, doesn't mean everyone can afford it. The "junk they're pawning off on people" is sometimes the best that these people can afford, and they're actually opening up options for these people who use them to get to work, get to the store, get to church...

These junk bikes serve a very valid purpose.

I wish manufacturers would assemble a cheap but well-designed bike. No suspension, no goofy-looking frame design, maybe just a 3 speed hub.

I think cruisers are way over priced, and whenever a friend wants to buy one, I tell them to go the department store. They are all the same.

 

[Muuqi]

I wish manufacturers would assemble a cheap but well-designed bike. No suspension, no goofy-looking frame design, maybe just a 3 speed hub.

I think cruisers are way over priced, and whenever a friend wants to buy one, I tell them to go the department story. They are all the same.

Ahh, and enter the new Shimano Coasting gruppo. Automatic transmission, 3 or 7 spd, a (fairly) low retail price of $350 to 450, easy to use, and already Raleigh, Trek, and Giant have jumped on to stock a line of bikes with the gruppo for 2007. If you get it, pick up the Bicycle Retailer magazine and check out the article on it, it's a pretty interesting read.

 

[Wordbiker]

I appreciate your outrage to a certain extent, in that you simply want people on quality bikes and for them to understand what a bike can really be.

However, I see people every single day of my life that have no other form of transportation than that crappy Wal-Mart bike. Just because a nicer bike might be a better idea, doesn't mean everyone can afford it. The "junk they're pawning off on people" is sometimes the best that these people can afford, and they're actually opening up options for these people who use them to get to work, get to the store, get to church...

These junk bikes serve a very valid purpose.

I also understand where you are coming from, but I don't see why that very same person needing transportation wouldn't benefit from having the service that vehicle requires included in the purchase price, or from a vehicle that is safer for the road. They either pay less up front for a bike (which is a bit misleading) or they pay it soon enough in replacing faulty and poor quality parts, especially if they actually put some miles on it. Then we go right to the same scenario I described, and they're pissed at the LBS again.

I would argue that better than 95% of the bikes purchased at a big box store are not used for daily transportation. Given the styles typically displayed, these are impulse buys for children and adults for purely recreational purposes the majority of the time. In some ways it does make sense to spend less on bikes for kids as they either outgrow them or they junk them even faster by abusing and neglecting them, but I grew up in a bygone era where I valued the things I had, and learned to take care of them. The dumping of cheap bikes on the American market makes the average consumer value what appears to be a bike just like you'd buy at a bike shop far less, and just like a Kleenex, sees it as something to throw away after it is used up....which happens sooner than later. Geez, I've had bikes given to me merely because they had flat tires!

I am certainly not calling you wrong Binary, but can you see that this devaluation to the point of bicycles becoming as cheapened as a Happy Meal toy affects anyone that is a cyclist? Even the people that can't afford a car for transportation (a number I'm sure is growing) are better served by picking up a used though repairable quality bicycle, not some sad mockery of one dumped upon them by a corporation that doesn't even care if it serves the function it was designed for....until they're sued, and poor folks can't afford to sue them.

To take a quote from Grant Peterson out of the 1992 Bridgestone catalog:
"Pay a little more.
The best dealers take the time to assemble and adjust your bike properly, and charge you for it. A higher price is usually a good sign. The term False Economy was invented for poorly assembled, heavily discounted bikes."

I would add to this bicycles made of inferior materials, of inferior design, and of dubious roadworthiness that can't be made to be anything more than a garage decoration, no matter how skilled the mechanic...

 

[Wordbiker]

Are there enough parts to salvage one working bike?

A less fortunate kid prolly doesn't care if it has XTR components or not...

I honestly don't think that she or her kids wanted XTR...just wanted them to work. Unfortunately, there wasn't a usable chain (rusted, as was nearly everything else) or an inflated tire in the bunch. I did take one home, and will be taking home the rest for parts to fix other bikes.

 

[binary visions]

I don't see why that very same person needing transportation wouldn't benefit from having the service that vehicle requires included in the purchase price, or from a vehicle that is safer for the road.

They would. That doesn't make the money appear, though.

They either pay less up front for a bike (which is a bit misleading) or they pay it soon enough in replacing faulty and poor quality parts, especially if they actually put some miles on it.

I think you'd be suprised at the length of time those stupid little Next bikes will hold up when they're literally used to move a person to work and back again.

I'm not sure if you understand how a lot of the population rides, especially people who buy this kind of bike. They sit on the bike and pedal - many don't even quite grasp the full extent of shifting. They simply pedal in whatever gear they're in and arrive at their destination - no riding over curbs, no standing up and hammering, no dirt or rocks. As long as they don't leave it out in the rain to get rusty, there is little else that breaks. And many don't care when it does - I have seen plenty of people riding with an adjustable stem that's broken loose and simply flops up and down. Or with a rim that's so bent that they just unhooked the rear brake. These are people who get a tremendous amount of value out of a $90.00 bike and simply could not spend $200-300 on an LBS bike.

I would argue that better than 95% of the bikes purchased at a big box store are not used for daily transportation.

I think your number is way, way off. I agree that a majority is probably not purchased for transportation, but I see a tremendous number of people every day who are going to class or to work or wherever on their Wal-Mart bike.

I am certainly not calling you wrong Binary, but can you see that this devaluation to the point of bicycles becoming as cheapened as a Happy Meal toy affects anyone that is a cyclist? Even the people that can't afford a car for transportation (a number I'm sure is growing) are better served by picking up a used though repairable quality bicycle, not some sad mockery of one dumped upon them by a corporation that doesn't even care if it serves the function it was designed for....

You can think I'm wrong, I promise I won't hate you for it

Yes, I can see the devaluation of a bicycle. But many of these people buying these bikes have no way of purchasing a "used though repairable quality bicycle". Where would you like them to go? To the Internet? That's not a valid option, many of them would not even know where to start, let alone the fact that, if they can't afford a car, they are not likely to have a computer and a good internet connection. To a local bike shop? The only used bikes that I've ever seen at local bike shops are high end, they don't deal in reselling inexpensive bikes. Pawn shops usually won't take bikes, but the ones that do have Wal-Mart bikes marked down to the low, low price of only $20.

I would add to this bicycles made of inferior materials, of inferior design, and of dubious roadworthiness that can't be made to be anything more than a garage decoration, no matter how skilled the mechanic...

Garage decoration? People ride them every day of their life and get a tremendous value out of such a cheap mode of transportation.

Bikes used for recreation should be invested in accordingly - Wal-Mart bikes are not appropriate for any sort of aggressive riding. That's up to the parents, though, not to the manufacturers. I didn't see, before I moved down to this city, the sheer volume of people who ride these cheap bikes every day and who require them for the most basic transportation from place to place.

There's a whole other rant about these manufacturers investing in designs and features instead of higher quality materials and safer parts, but I believe that the price point Wal-Mart bikes are offered at is a necessary one.

 

[GotMyGED]

I don't have a problem with working on POS bikes, the only situation that i have problems with is the following:

A guy dropped 500-600 bucks for a bike 3 years ago. He rode the hell out of it the first year, but only rode it 2 or 3 times the second, but hasn't ridden it in the last year and a half.

He gets a wild hair to get his bike fixed up, so he brings it down to the LBS and says "make it like i just bought it". Turns out he needs tires, tubes, cables/housing, a chain, maybe a shifter, and some other miscellaneous item.

Anyway, the repair bill comes close to 125/150 dollars. When he finds out, he doesn't come to pick the bike up because he decided didn't want to start riding again bad enough to warrant spending that much money. So the bike has a lot invested in it, and just sits in the shop forever without being paid for. After a year of not having it paid for, a customer buys the bike from us for the cost of the repair because the manager is tired of it taking up space. Of course, 2 weeks after we sell it, the original customer comes in and wants his bike.

This situation has happened numerous times in my shop.

 

[sanjuro]

I don't have a problem with working on POS bikes, the only situation that i have problems with is the following:

A guy dropped 500-600 bucks for a bike 3 years ago. He rode the hell out of it the first year, but only rode it 2 or 3 times the second, but hasn't ridden it in the last year and a half.

He gets a wild hair to get his bike fixed up, so he brings it down to the LBS and says "make it like i just bought it". Turns out he needs tires, tubes, cables/housing, a chain, maybe a shifter, and some other miscellaneous item.

Anyway, the repair bill comes close to 125/150 dollars. When he finds out, he doesn't come to pick the bike up because he decided didn't want to start riding again bad enough to warrant spending that much money. So the bike has a lot invested in it, and just sits in the shop forever without being paid for. After a year of not having it paid for, a customer buys the bike from us for the cost of the repair because the manager is tired of it taking up space. Of course, 2 weeks after we sell it, the original customer comes in and wants his bike.

This situation has happened numerous times in my shop.

Sounds like your shop's fault.

1. You should make a cost estimate for the customer for him to decide if he wants to do the work.

2. At my shop, if the parts and labor is going to be over 10% of the estimate, we call the customer for confirmation.

 

[GotMyGED]

Sounds like your shop's fault.

1. You should make a cost estimate for the customer for him to decide if he wants to do the work.

2. At my shop, if the parts and labor is going to be over 10% of the estimate, we call the customer for confirmation.

Actually, we give accurate estimates on all repairs. Still can't help it if the customer has a change of heart once the repair is finished.

Thanks for the advice

 

[sanjuro]

Actually, we give accurate estimates on all repairs. Still can't help it if the customer has a change of heart once the repair is finished.

Thanks for the advice

If you told him how much it cost up front, and when it is done he balks, f*ck that guy!

Put some BB's down his seat tube.

 

[StinkLink]

Working at a bike coop/ shop on a college campus, POS bikes were my bread and butter. I used to hate working on 'em at a real shop, but I grew to love them at the coop. Except for the tetanus hazards-

 

[CKxx]

Ahhh yes....the POS bike. Always a joy to work on. I had one come in today STRAIGHT from wal-mart. I'm taking absolutly brand new, stickers, tag and all. The lady said the rear brake was rubbing and asked if I could fix it...upon closer inspection it was not just the brake, but the non-true wheel as well. I'm my mind when I'm checking in a bike in a have a sort of checklist, so next up is bearings. Rear had play, BB had very minor play, front was ok, but the wheel was bolted crooked into the dropout, making the braking power very weak. Next is the lever pull, which of course was excessive...

I could go on for 20 more minutes about this one bike, and they are all the same. Each problem leads to two more. As someone had stated above, the tag on the bike said $69.99, but I could have easily added roughly the same about in labor. We're at 70$ already just to upgrade the bike from 'dangerous' to '****ty.'

O, btw, it felt about as heavy as my Scream.