[Happymtb.fr]

I saw in the release note from GasGas that WP has put some of their cone valve technology in some DVO products.
Some of you guys have experience from the moto world, is this cone valve tech any good? And how do you think it would fit into mtb applications?

From what I understand it is some sort of mid-valving. Is that similar to FCV from Bos?

 

[two-one]

I saw in the release note from GasGas that WP has put some of their cone valve technology in some DVO products.
Some of you guys have experience from the moto world, is this cone valve tech any good? And how do you think it would fit into mtb applications?

From what I understand it is some sort of mid-valving. Is that similar to FCV from Bos?

Looks more like a poppet valve with free bleed and weird shape, not much more than that.

 

[jrewing]

I saw in the release note from GasGas that WP has put some of their cone valve technology in some DVO products.
Some of you guys have experience from the moto world, is this cone valve tech any good? And how do you think it would fit into mtb applications?

From what I understand it is some sort of mid-valving. Is that similar to FCV from Bos?

Tuners often seemed to go to traditional midvalve instead of cone. Do what KYB do, dont do what WP do.
WP has made aftermarket tuning a big industry.

 

[kidwoo]

WP has made aftermarket tuning a big industry.

1. Start with shit garbagefuck suspension
2. Underpants
3. ??????
4. CONE VALVE!!!

 

[Jm_]

Yep, this is definitely why fox is under damped and Zeb damper feels like hot garbage. No cone valve! It all makes sense now.

 

[kidwoo]

for anyone who actually cares, this is the general idea

and leaf spring midvalves that KYB uses on dirtbike shit is a far superior design like jrewing said

WP is kind of gimmicky whereas in this case moar shimz is betterer



Here's the kind of shit some mountainbike nerd learns and decides to play genius with mountainbikers to take their money. Midvalve discussion at the end of the post

https://www.thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1394823-beginners-guide-to-valving/

 

[Kanye West]

WP CV's are not exactly well-loved in the moto world. A lot of tuners (and factory teams....) swap things over to a standard KYB leaf-spring midvalve. Doesn't mean they're not "good", but they are most certainly different. I've actually wanted to go the other way and put one in a KYB fork, just because I have a way of warping MV face shims with lots of desert whoops, so I'd simply want a longer service interval before things start getting "busy" feeling.

One surprising aspect about them is that they are not necessarily digressive in nature. They can be linear or on the progressive side. There's some interesting stuff going on with the flow geometry in there.

The parameters to adjust are: The cup/cone pairing (steepness of the chamfer), the spring selection, and the preload on it. It was originally designed to be more simple than a shimmed MV, but debatable whether or not it's been widely integrated that way.

As for mtb's, if it's the same adjusting parameters as a moto CV version, it has the potential to be far more capable than any other normal mtb MV setup....since those largely blow dog. As long as someone hasn't fucked up something badly in the BV to complement the CV mid, it may be pretty awesome. Gotta pop one apart at some point and see.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Thanks guys! That was interesting

I don't recall seeing midvalves on many mtb fork. I only remember seeing check valves... what mtb fork do actually use a midvalve?

Rear shock do obviously use midvalves with plenty of pressure behind the IFP to avoid cavitation.

 

[kidwoo]

Thanks guys! That was interesting

I don't recall seeing midvalves on many mtb fork. I only remember seeing check valves... what mtb fork do actually use a midvalve?

most of the good ones

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/inside-foxs-new-grip2-damper.html

 

[Jm_]

Thanks guys! That was interesting

I don't recall seeing midvalves on many mtb fork. I only remember seeing check valves... what mtb fork do actually use a midvalve?

Rear shock do obviously use midvalves with plenty of pressure behind the IFP to avoid cavitation.

Um, this has been a thing for about 10 yrs

 

[Happymtb.fr]

I must have been living under a rock then!
I have a 2019 grip 34 which is a cheap piece of shit damping-wise... no midvalve and mostly no free bleed on the base valve!

 

[Westy]

Even my base level Pike has a midvalve, which is kind of pointless as out of the box it is valved so light the only noticeable resistance on compression comes from the shitty bushings and seal friction.

 

[kidwoo]

Most decent forks have had 'midvalves' for way longer than ten years. Certain people (like avalanche) just start using the term along sPeEd sEnSiTiVe damping, which all fluid based damping is because remember........

Here's the kind of shit some mountainbike nerd learns and decides to play genius with mountainbikers to take their money.

 

[Jm_]

I must have been living under a rock then!
I have a 2019 grip 34 which is a cheap piece of shit damping-wise... no midvalve and mostly no free bleed on the base valve!

Because not a fit4

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

Thanks guys! That was interesting

I don't recall seeing midvalves on many mtb fork. I only remember seeing check valves... what mtb fork do actually use a midvalve?

Rear shock do obviously use midvalves with plenty of pressure behind the IFP to avoid cavitation.

The midvalve in mtb forks is simply the rebound piston assembly. One side provides rebound damping and the other side acts as a check valve mostly but can also be used for compression damping. Some more than others. If you want to see how much effect on compression yours has, close rebound all the way and push on the fork. For something like a Grip 2 you'll feel a big increase in compression damping.

The mid valve in the rear shock is attached to the damper rod and usually has both compression and rebound shim stacks.

The base valve in forks is the main compression assembly, the top part for most dampers. It has a check valve as well that is open for rebound.

The base valve for shocks is the piston assembly that sits on the bottom of the piggy back, or on the side for DHX2, etc.

Mid valve is attached to a damper shaft and moves, base valve is fixed in place.

Midvalve is activated by damper rod movement, base valve is activated by the oil displaced from the damper rod moving in and out of the damper tube.

Single tube shocks like Fox DPS are mid valve only.

If you really want to learn about suspension, read this;

Suspension Bible

 

[englertracing]

I think the cv

most of the good ones

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/inside-foxs-new-grip2-damper.html

The grip 2 actually kinda sucks.
Particularly the vvc.
Downgrade from rc2

 

[kidwoo]

I must have been living under a rock then!
I have a 2019 grip 34 which is a cheap piece of shit damping-wise... no midvalve and mostly no free bleed on the base valve!

If it's like this 36, there's a midvalve on that fork

no one said it's worth a damn. There's nothing inherently magic about a midvalve. It's just adding a tuneable compression stack to the backside of a rebound piston. It can suck just like every other design

 

[kidwoo]

I think the cv


The grip 2 actually kinda sucks.
Particularly the vvc.
Downgrade from rc2

I'm not making any value judgments, just pointing it out has a midvalve. Which you beat me to the punch on your last post, there's nothing magic about having one. Most mtb peeps just haven't had that word shoved in their face yet so think it's some new special magic thing they need.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

If you really want to learn about suspension, read this;
Suspension Bible

Thanks! I have the book already. I learned a lot from it. I actually checked it before posting this thread but there was nothing about cone valve in it.

If it's like this 36, there's a midvalve on that fork

It's much more simple than that. Here it is in all its glory

 

[kidwoo]

Thanks! I have the book already. I learned a lot from it. I actually checked it before posting this thread but there was nothing about cone valve in it.


It's much more simple than that. Here it is in all its glory
View attachment 201619

Lol, you get one shim and one float spring


You'd be surpised at how close to some of the ktm/wp that shit is

How thick is that one shim? If it's got some beef on it, you might be able to replace it with small pyramid stack

 

[Happymtb.fr]

From the doc at Fox that one shim is 0.15mm.
The midvalve on the grip 2 is 3 shims 0.1mm thick building a pyramid stack. There are different pyramids available, for example one for long travel

The spring behind the shim(s) is the same independently of the version

The piston is different, obviously

 

[kidwoo]

From the doc at Fox that one shim is 0.15mm.

yeah that's not much to work with without reducing or eliminating the float

You can likely get whatever you want to change by screwing with the base valve too. There's nothing inherently better about changing the midvalve, it's just usually a way to enact bigger changes with less work.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

I actually did more than I remember on that fork. On top of adding some free bleed to the base valve, I also swap all the shims thanks to some help from a fellow monkey. Here are my notes

O.K, Kids, What Mods Can Be Done To Improve ‘19 Fox 36?

Most lower assembly bushing installs are tooled for concentricity. But...to a nominally perfect hub length. The overshadowing issue with parallelism is the axle layout on most forks. The layout on the new 38 solves that, and it is very noticeable. You are correct though - there is little...

ridemonkey.bikemag.com

@englertracing came to the rescue!

 

[englertracing]

My thoughts/understanding of mv simplified.
MV are more direct they flow through the entire fluid column in the cartridge minus the rod volume.
MV can create a tremendous amount of damping (as is done in a shock). With a motion ratio of 1/1 on a fork we dont need that much so you see float.... often times enogh to prevent the mv from making compression damping. Also for a given mv stiffness it takes a combination of bv stiffness + ics pressure to prevent cavitation.
The bv is less direct as the rod entering the cartridge has to build pressure compressing the oil column, flexxing the cartridge walls, this leads to a tiny delay in damping.

Generally i think adequate levels of damping can be had in a mtb fork relying only on a propely designed BV

 

[Leafy]

The grip2 may be the only common mtb fork damper that actually using a mid valve. I don't consider a check valve on the piston to be a midvalve. Remember, the midvalve can never have a larger pressure drop than the basevalve or else you'll get cavitation, which is also probably why most forks dont have midvalves, because they arent trying to make very much compression damping at all, the friction on the fork stanchions makes tons of low speed compression damping as it is. Another issue having a midvalve, without a checkvalve on the low speed rebound bleed, the low speed rebound adjust will have a significant effect on compression damping. This is why some people complain that the grip2 has hardly any compression damping, where others think its fine, if you like fast rebound you're going to get less low speed compression damping.

 

[Jm_]

Remember, the midvalve can never have a larger pressure drop than the midvalve

 

[Leafy]

Dammit I meant basevalve the second time.

 

[Andeh]

This is why some people complain that the grip2 has hardly any compression damping, where others think its fine, if you like fast rebound you're going to get less low speed compression damping.

That would explain why a GRIP2 38 is the only fork I've ever run with HSC fully closed lol.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Apparently the cone valve is not placed on the mid valve but on the base valve according to TheSuspensionLabNZ on Vitalmtb

That is the WP version of the new Onyx 38 damper with the Cone Valve. DVO NZ reached out after I commented on it as it turns out they had been testing it for a few months already. I've had it all in bits and will run it on the Dyno tomorrow but so far-

-Yes it is an actual Cone Valve design, but on the base valve instead of the mid valve. This will change its effect somewhat, since there is much less oil flow at the base valve
-Overall construction of the base valve is really nice, the dials feel good and the bladder is larger than before
-Low speed adjuster looks very tidy so I expect it to be a lot more effective than the old one (and many other brands LSC circuits)
-The rebound piston is a lot better, larger rebound ports which are spaced further out from the clamp shim so it might have a more linear damping rate. The old one had such small ports and large pivot that it mostly behaved like an orifice damper.
-Seal head is way better too, much less friction than before

MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

Wanted to start a thread for new bike tech and rumors. Recently, the racing rumors page has turned into an Ebike debate so lets get this thread started off right! First up, Santa Cruz Heckler

www.vitalmtb.com

 

[Leafy]

And make sure you actually zoom on the photo, the mid valve compression just has a thin wave spring and not a big stack of shims like it kind of looks like.

 

[rikidc]

I actually did more than I remember on that fork. On top of adding some free bleed to the base valve, I also swap all the shims thanks to some help from a fellow monkey. Here are my notes
View attachment 201620

O.K, Kids, What Mods Can Be Done To Improve ‘19 Fox 36?

Most lower assembly bushing installs are tooled for concentricity. But...to a nominally perfect hub length. The overshadowing issue with parallelism is the axle layout on most forks. The layout on the new 38 solves that, and it is very noticeable. You are correct though - there is little...

ridemonkey.bikemag.com

@englertracing came to the rescue!

Did you notice improvement with this modified stacks? I’m looking to do it

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Did you notice improvement with this modified stacks? I’m looking to do it

Yes it was a clear improvement. Be aware that most of the improvement comes from removing/reducing the preload on the compression stack and adding a free bleed path.