[no skid marks]

Please let us know how much lever throw changes when pads are full worn.
If only they had pad adjust.
Good to see they moved the pivot back closer to the bar with the new levers.
I look forward to a review from somone who's jumped from a properly set up set of Formula Ones to these. I'm totally digging the Ones right now. But these sure look impressive. Pad adjust will probably keep me on the Formulas, with lever pivot placement and mineral oil being the only slight tempters for the XTRs.
I'd love to know how much fluid the lever displaces compared to all other Shimano brakes. Could make some interesting franken brakes with old two pot XTs, or new Saint calipers. Even older two pot calipers, as I have a lot kicking about.

 

[bismojo]

need info : are the new XTR calipers compatible with hope floating rotors?

previous shimano calipers (saint m810, xt m775 etc) require some grinding around lower mounting tab..

thanks.

 

[Steve M]

The only thing you kill with those rotors is yourself if you are using them.
A german bike mag tested them and the brakes failed badly. The aluminum of the rotors melted and the pads also looked really bad. They only recommended them for lightweight riders and not too aggressive riding.

Yeah I saw that article, but I find it hard to believe Shimano hasn't actually tested that stuff thoroughly... rotors melting just doesn't sound that plausible, and I'll wait til I hear at least ONE other corroborating anecdote before I go writing them off without testing them myself.

BTW, for what it's worth - you can totally and utterly destroy ANY brake on a brake dyno. Everything melts eventually!

 

[iRider]

Yeah I saw that article, but I find it hard to believe Shimano hasn't actually tested that stuff thoroughly... rotors melting just doesn't sound that plausible, and I'll wait til I hear at least ONE other corroborating anecdote before I go writing them off without testing them myself.

BTW, for what it's worth - you can totally and utterly destroy ANY brake on a brake dyno. Everything melts eventually!

They destroyed the XTR rotors on the dyno and in a real test coming down a mountain pass. FWIW: the other brakes in the test survived, although some showed fading too. Code, X.O, The One performed really well, even the superlight Ashima survived but was not great in regards to fading.
I wouldn't count this as "anecdote", it is not like some guy on the interwebz wrote a bad review. It is bike magazine that did a scientific comparison between different brakes (and they lose a lot of ad money if they publish something like this). I think lab tests are the least biased, however you might be able to argue that they aimed too high with their test standards.
Interestingly, when they determined the brake power the XTR XC was in 185 mm stronger than the XTR trail and I think third to One (1.) and Code (2.).

 

[norbar]

They destroyed the XTR rotors on the dyno and in a real test coming down a mountain pass. FWIW: the other brakes in the test survived, although some showed fading too. Code, X.O, The One performed really well, even the superlight Ashima survived but was not great in regards to fading.
I wouldn't count this as "anecdote", it is not like some guy on the interwebz wrote a bad review. It is bike magazine that did a scientific comparison between different brakes (and they lose a lot of ad money if they publish something like this). I think lab tests are the least biased, however you might be able to argue that they aimed too high with their test standards.
Interestingly, when they determined the brake power the XTR XC was in 185 mm stronger than the XTR trail and I think third to One (1.) and Code (2.).

But ashimas have negative power. Squeezing the brakes actualy makes you go faster, they are that weak. Some local dirt guys tested them and absolutely hated them and you know you dont need much braking power for dirt

 

[ldw222]

Moa-...

I used to use EBC red pads, or those limited availability Shimnao silver pads in th 4 pot brakes, then they had mad power. Always loved those brakes. They had more power than the newer XT 2pts did.

I'd say the XTR Trail has more power. Similar feel in the control dept, but a spongier feel when just squeezing the brake (not when riding). It's been 10 years though.

Hey Krispy...I know you're getting a ton of questions after your post but I've got another one! Do you know anything about the compatiblity of the new XTR Trail levers and 4 piston Saint calipers? I like the calipers but I've had a lot of problems with the levers over the years. Thanks!

 

[Steve M]

They destroyed the XTR rotors on the dyno and in a real test coming down a mountain pass. FWIW: the other brakes in the test survived, although some showed fading too. Code, X.O, The One performed really well, even the superlight Ashima survived but was not great in regards to fading.
I wouldn't count this as "anecdote", it is not like some guy on the interwebz wrote a bad review. It is bike magazine that did a scientific comparison between different brakes (and they lose a lot of ad money if they publish something like this). I think lab tests are the least biased, however you might be able to argue that they aimed too high with their test standards.
Interestingly, when they determined the brake power the XTR XC was in 185 mm stronger than the XTR trail and I think third to One (1.) and Code (2.).

Like I said, I read the article. I can also write off Saint pads and rotors if I try, down a 250m vertical trail - just drag the brakes long enough and anything will stop working. I'm just skeptical of the validity of their testing given that Shimano obviously have the equipment, manpower and means to conduct exactly the same testing themselves. If they were testing brakes on a dyno and found that the XC brake was stronger than the Trail brake (which has the Servowave thing), does that not tell you something was up to begin with? Like perhaps that they were testing brake power at automotive levels of heat dissipation? There are companies out there where it wouldn't surprise me that they'd release something so untested, but Shimano VERY rarely drops the ball that badly. Not impossible by any means, just unlikely.

I'm not writing off Bike magazine's testing, just saying I'm reserving judgment until either I've tested them for myself, or heard other stories of similar failures. Until then, I'm prepared to give Shimano the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Bikael Molton]

thanks for the in-depth review Krispy!

 

[iRider]

Like I said, I read the article. I can also write off Saint pads and rotors if I try, down a 250m vertical trail - just drag the brakes long enough and anything will stop working.

What made me think is that the other brakes survived. And they do this test for years now. In the beginning a lot were failing, but lately this is the only one I can remember.

I'm just skeptical of the validity of their testing given that Shimano obviously have the equipment, manpower and means to conduct exactly the same testing themselves.

You distrust dyno data more than you do a single report by a member of RM (sorry Krispy )?

If they were testing brakes on a dyno and found that the XC brake was stronger than the Trail brake (which has the Servowave thing), does that not tell you something was up to begin with?

Metallic vs. organic pads was my first thought.

There are companies out there where it wouldn't surprise me that they'd release something so untested, but Shimano VERY rarely drops the ball that badly. Not impossible by any means, just unlikely.

Why do some companies get the benefit of doubt on here and others don't? Is DW now engineer at Shimano?

 

[leprechaun]

1 I don't know how they compare to The One's.

2 I don't know about the compatability of Hope rotors.

3 Metal pads have more power and more heat. Maybe the Trail brake created more power which means more heat than the Race and overheated? Maybe the Ice rotor works better with the Resin pad?

 

[leprechaun]

•Includes: BL-M985 'Race' MC/lever, BH90-SB 0/90d tubing kit, 74mm post-mount BR-M985 twin-piston caliper, G01A resin-compound pads, and additional olive/barb for shortening tubing (if needed)

Dude- my 130 lbs on a 28lb bike is surely more scientific than some robot grabbing a brake lever

If a robot is grabbing two handfulls of brake then they'll all overheat. If it's grabbing whatever my index finger produces the Race probably doesn't produce the power or the heat.

 

[sethimus]

it's not a lab test only, they also rode the jenesien trail in bolzano, italy, while only braking with the front brake. anyone who knows this trail agrees, it's not easy on your brakes. i'm normally also sceptical on tests by the bike mag, mainly because normally they have more like an "industry friendly" image and only know 3 test results: super, very good and good. so seeing an actually bad test result from a major company is kind of surprising...

anyway, i'm still interested in a review of a xtr lever/sain caliber frankenbrake. anyone in?

 

[tuumbaq]

Would love to read that test in Bike mag, is it anywhere online to be found ?

 

[Steve M]

What made me think is that the other brakes survived. And they do this test for years now. In the beginning a lot were failing, but lately this is the only one I can remember.



You distrust dyno data more than you do a single report by a member of RM (sorry Krispy )?


Metallic vs. organic pads was my first thought.




Why do some companies get the benefit of doubt on here and others don't? Is DW now engineer at Shimano?

I never said I trusted Krispy's review over anyone else's. I distrust ANY measurements made by ANYONE unless I have reason to believe they're competent at taking those particular measurements. For what it's worth, I've worked for a major automotive brake manufacturer in their bench test department, and they write off ALL their brakes on the dyno at some point. Ideally if the brake is well designed, the test conditions at failure are labeled "unrealistic" - but they all fail eventually, even the ones built for various race cars. They literally melt caliper seals, pistons, brake pads, cast iron crossdrilled vented rotors - you name it, they find a test severe enough to wreck it. One brake may survive a test that writes off another, but if the less tough one was written off in a completely unrealistic test anyway then who cares?

Why do I give Shimano the benefit of the doubt? Because they have an exemplary track record, and they have the machinery, money, manpower, time, opportunity and capacity to test things THAT obvious. They're not retarded, there are obvious difficulties with using aluminium in brake rotors, and if those things are occurring to you and I then I think it's safe to say Shimano have probably thought things over in just a little bit more detail. There are plenty of companies I don't give the benefit of the doubt, because they have chequered track records with reliability and clearly don't have the R&D budget and capacities that Shimano do.

What I suspect has happened is that Shimano has actually worked out the realistic braking conditions more accurately than Bike mag, and have built the brake with less margin for error - so obvious attempts to make the brake fail (like braking with one brake only, dragging like crazy, down a particularly steep alpine pass with huge vertical, for example) will actually do so. What I'm more concerned with is whether real-world users in real-world conditions are suffering the same failures. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be true, I'm just saying that if those rotors legitimately do just melt, we'll be hearing about it very shortly and very often.

 

[sethimus]

Would love to read that test in Bike mag, is it anywhere online to be found ?

there was a link with some scans in the other xtr thread, but we're talking of the german bike mag, not the american one...

 

[iRider]

...and have built the brake with less margin for error -...

I am with you on that. It is exactly the reason why I replied to you when you initially stated that you would love to use these rotors with a Saint brake. I just thought it is plain risky.

 

[dropmachine]

Socket is, as always, bang on.

Couple points. Shimano HAS screwed up brakes before, but I'd imagine by this point they know what they are doing. Are the new XTRs going to be the second coming? Who knows. I know that the last XTR brake would have been stronger if you had a baby squeezing the rotors instead of the caliper.

I don't agree on the Ashima brakes either. We've got a couple sets in to try out, and they are much better now that they've worked out a few problems. They aren't Saint strong, but they aren't supposed to be either. They're a strange brake, and the writeup will show that. Hard tog et a handle on them really.

 

[jonKranked]

unrealistic testing? i have robot arms and melt brakes all the time. this is relevant to my interests.

 

[bismojo]

nice review Krispy,

i asked about m985 caliper + hope floating rotor compatibility but couldn't find info everywhere, so i tested it myself, might be useful for users out there as these rotors are pretty common :

as you can see the clearance is very tight, between the caliper body (near mounting area) and the rivets on the hope floating rotor (junction between steel and alloy spider) .. with m810 saint and m775 xt i did cut them a bit (dremel / file) but this xtr works without any modification (altough i will cut them a bit for better clearance / adjustment)

the rest of installation is smooth, switched the hose orientation (moto style) and no bleeding required. the lever is nice and tiny.. with dimples on the blades just like my worn straitline. love it.

can't wait til weekend for a ride.. cheers

 

[worship_mud]

nice review Krispy,

i asked about m985 caliper + hope floating rotor compatibility but couldn't find info everywhere, so i tested it myself, might be useful for users out there as these rotors are pretty common :

as you can see the clearance is very tight, between the caliper body (near mounting area) and the rivets on the hope floating rotor (junction between steel and alloy spider) .. with m810 saint and m775 xt i did cut them a bit (dremel / file) but this xtr works without any modification (altough i will cut them a bit for better clearance / adjustment)

the rest of installation is smooth, switched the hose orientation (moto style) and no bleeding required. the lever is nice and tiny.. with dimples on the blades just like my worn straitline. love it.

can't wait til weekend for a ride.. cheers

man, this neon yellow / orange color combo looks rad! any pic of the complete bike?

 

[KeyboardRider]

Would you say the XTR power is comparable to the Saints 'grabby' power? Wondering how well these would work for trials for the front brake.

 

[bismojo]

man, this neon yellow / orange color combo looks rad! any pic of the complete bike?

larger

thanks