[BurlyShirley]

Here on RM and a ton of other sites, all I hear is about how the "Ignorant" US public doesnt really understand the issues or know what they're voting for. Or for that matter, even know what the electoral college is and how it works. Some of you high and mighty liberals, i think, are just too high and mighty to actually try and make a connection that could really change someone's mind someday...which I would think should be important if progress is what you're really after. Honestly though, I dont think its what you're after. I just think alot of really far left leaning folks have some kind of inferiority complex where they feel that they need to stand out as smarter than "the majority" and latch on to some kind of useless, impossible, never-gunna-happen, idealist platform.
Well guys...give it a rest please.
Here's the way it works. People go to work all day long 5 days a week and get two off. They like to watch football and do yardwork and bring up their kids the way they were brought up. Bush, makes the promise that this lifestyle will continue. Kerry makes the promise that this lifestyle will continue only with certain changes. The debates are about these significant changes. The candidates are not THE SAME as some of you all would like the world to believe. They are simply at the ends of practical in the majority of the public mindset. It is not stupidity. Have a respect for culture please.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Are the young men and women that needlessly died in Iraq going to be doing yardwork?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Are the young men and women that needlessly died in Iraq going to be doing yardwork?

Wait, the ones saddam killed, or the one's that died overthrowing him?

 

[Ridemonkey]

Ya know - at this point only W and a select group of conservative thinkers think that war was reasonable. The rest of the World now know that it was a total disaster. A lot of Republicans know that now too. You're gonna have to face the music at some point dude.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Ya know - at this point only W and a select group of conservative thinkers think that war was reasonable. The rest of the World now know that it was a total disaster. A lot of Republicans know that now too. You're gonna have to face the music at some point dude.

Kerry will not state that it would be better if Saddam were still in power because he knows the truth. I'll give you RM, that things always could be conducted better, but admit that a world without saddam is a better world altogether.

 

[chicodude]

It is? How so?

 

[BurlyShirley]

It is? How so?

Ask a kurd.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Kerry will not state that it would be better if Saddam were still in power because he knows the truth. I'll give you RM, that things always could be conducted better, but admit that a world without saddam is a better world altogether.

Total disaster dude. Nobody liked Saddam but before this is over many are going to wish he was back. I heard something kinda sad and funny on the radio today. It seems that insurgents are joining the new Iraqi army so that they can be trained by American troops and learn their techniques. They then leave and use their newfound skills to attack the very army that trained them. Do you have any comprehension of what a cluster **** this is?

Regarding the rest of your post: most cultures change with the times. Thats just the natural law. The US on the other hand is the top dog so when the world changes rather than change with it, we just flex some muscle and kill some people and manipulate some markets and then we just go one the way we always have. Two problems with this. 1. if you are a compassionate person you will realize that this just isn't fair to the rest of the world. 2. It can't last forever. It never does. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. We are setting ourselves up for the hardest fall the World has ever seen.

 

[chicodude]

Is it just me, or is Modern day America Starting to look like a once great civilization of Rome?

 

[Changleen]

all I hear is about how the "Ignorant" US public doesnt really understand the issues or know what they're voting for.

Well, having seen the farce that is your newsmedia, they're probably right. Even these upcoming debates look to be nothing but another soundbitefest. And as someone posted earlier, was it 48% of Americans think Saddam was responsible for 9/11? That says to me that 48% of Americans at least don't have a clue.

Here's the way it works. People go to work all day long 5 days a week and get two off. They like to watch football and do yardwork and bring up their kids the way they were brought up. Bush, makes the promise that this lifestyle will continue...

Except that he is doing a lot of things that will change 'the American way of life' - Destroying all your precious freedoms, raping your environment, making the rest of the world hate you, etc. People just don't realise this, which is the problem.

 

[Changleen]

Ask a kurd.

Yup, those Kurds will tell you exactly how much safer America is.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Do you have any comprehension of what a cluster **** this is?

Yes. Timothy Mcveigh and the DC sniper were both former US military. This is nothing new. In the end though, a democratic state is worth it IMO because as the cliche goes, freedom is not free, or cheap or any of that. If it were, the whole world would be that way.

Also, you say most cultures change with time. Which ones? Muslim culture? Hasnt changed much. American culture has gone from not showing elvis from the waist down to showing Tom Green wank off a horse. We are a very liberal country by MOST standards RM. Look at Russia and China. They arent running to legalize gay marriage or anything. They've stayed put more than the US ever has. I dont get the cause/effect of what you're implying.

 

[Changleen]

Kerry will not state that it would be better if Saddam were still in power because he knows the truth.

Actually, I think he's more worried about offending 'the troops' and therefore their familes and most of America.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Well, having seen the farce that is your newsmedia, they're probably right. Even these upcoming debates look to be nothing but another soundbitefest. And as someone posted earlier, was it 48% of Americans think Saddam was responsible for 9/11? That says to me that 48% of Americans at least don't have a clue.



Except that he is doing a lot of things that will change 'the American way of life' - Destroying all your precious freedoms, raping your environment, making the rest of the world hate you, etc. People just don't realise this, which is the problem.

You bend statistics to suit your arguments, which i should expect of course. I believe the stats said that 48% think that saddam was "connected" (key word) to 911. Not responsible. I think there is certainly a difference from an inferred connection by trivializing race/religion/ehtnicity and sheer ignorance of fact. Neither is right, but they arent the same.
Also, no freedoms I know of have been destroyed, I have plenty of trees and the rest of the world can kiss my a$$ honestly. I had the debate the other day about the environment and cutting down of the trees and of course no one offered up any numbers when I asked for them.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Actually, I think he's more worried about offending 'the troops' and therefore their familes and most of America.

Well, it would be so stupid as to be offensive so yes, i concur.

 

[Changleen]

Also, you say most cultures change with time. Which ones? Muslim culture? Hasnt changed much. American culture has gone from not showing elvis from the waist down to showing Tom Green wank off a horse. We are a very liberal country by MOST standards RM. Look at Russia and China. They arent running to legalize gay marriage or anything. They've stayed put more than the US ever has. I dont get the cause/effect of what you're implying.

Uh, I think you need to learn a little more about China and Russia, dude. One suffered the collapse of Communism and it's economy, converted to democracy and is on it's way to becoming one the world's largest economies again, and the other is in the midst of a cultural revolution... The US is changing too, unfortunatly right now it seems to be regressing...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Uh, I think you need to learn a little more about China and Russia, dude. One suffered the collapse of Communism and it's economy, converted to democracy and is on it's way to becoming one the world's largest economies again, and the other is in the midst of a cultural revolution... The US is changing too, unfortunatly right now it seems to be regressing...

Culturally benedict. culturally

 

[Changleen]

You bend statistics to suit your arguments, which i should expect of course. I believe the stats said that 48% think that saddam was "connected" (key word) to 911. Not responsible. I think there is certainly a difference from an inferred connection by trivializing race/religion/ehtnicity and sheer ignorance of fact. Neither is right, but they arent the same.

Well, the point is they are misinformed about a really important fact. My point still stands does it not?

Also, no freedoms I know of have been destroyed, I have plenty of trees and the rest of the world can kiss my a$$ honestly. I had the debate the other day about the environment and cutting down of the trees and of course no one offered up any numbers when I asked for them.

Good. Good American. Don't try and find out anything for yourself. Stay ignorant. I think I posted a link in that debate to a site which would have answered all your questions, but you obviously didn't follow it...

 

[Silver]

Culturally, pretty much every first world country (with perhaps the exception of Japan) is more liberal than the United States.

Politically, the US is more conservative than every other first world country. For example, Kerry would be as right wing as the furthest right (major party) candidate in the last Canadian election.

 

[Changleen]

the rest of the world can kiss my a$$ honestly.

That is a great attitude. If I need to point out why that is so stupid then you're a lost cause.

 

[Changleen]

Culturally benedict. culturally

Yup, no cultural change associated with going from Communism to Capitalism is there? Economy changes, everything else stays the same.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Yup, no cultural change associated with going from Communism to Capitalism is there? Economy changes, everything else stays the same.

Practically, yes. Culturally, both China and Russia are much the same as they've been family, home- wise for....forever. Which is what Im really getting at as important here.

 

[bomberz1qr20]

Here on RM and a ton of other sites, all I hear is about how the "Ignorant" US public doesnt really understand the issues or know what they're voting for. Or for that matter, even know what the electoral college is and how it works.

W is counting on it.

Some of you high and mighty liberals, i think, are just too high and mighty to actually try and make a connection that could really change someone's mind someday...

Perhaps it's a matter of this: a conservative is CONSERVATIVE. That means you're NOT someone who changes his mind. You "stick to your guns" In fact I think most true conservatives wear this as a badge, like "I'm too tough in my beliefs to let this high and mighty liberal change my way of life - even if there is a better way"

That's how most conservatives seem to me. Changing your mind would = defeat or "weakness"...

which I would think should be important if progress is what you're really after. Honestly though, I dont think its what you're after. I just think alot of really far left leaning folks have some kind of inferiority complex where they feel that they need to stand out as smarter than "the majority" and latch on to some kind of useless, impossible, never-gunna-happen, idealist platform.

I'd much rather aim high and get what I can then let things remain the same if things are f**ked up. Maybe thats just me. Alot of liberals are fairly realistic. This is a "think it, do it" country - right? Why not think of the best world we can make and strive for that.

As the Raiders motto might go: Commitment to Excellence

Well guys...give it a rest please.
Here's the way it works. People go to work all day long 5 days a week and get two off. They like to watch football and do yardwork and bring up their kids the way they were brought up.

Alot of people yes. Some people are WAY outside that "normal" way of life. And it's all the same. We are all surviving.

Some people are trying to raise their kids much BETTER than their parents raised them. And if you had kids you'd see how hard that can be. Alot of my (our) generation grew up raised by really damaged people. The 70's and 80's were really hard on families, and we are paying for it now.

Bush, makes the promise that this lifestyle will continue.

I don't feel secure in that promise. It's hard to accept promises from an ex-coke head habitual liar. That much I've learned living in Oakland.

Kerry makes the promise that this lifestyle will continue only with certain changes. The debates are about these significant changes.

Change is good.

The candidates are not THE SAME as some of you all would like the world to believe.

Duh

They are simply at the ends of practical in the majority of the public mindset. It is not stupidity. Have a respect for culture please.

Easy to say living in the mellowest place in the US. I think if you lived stateside you would be a little more fed up with how things are going.

No one is dissing the "American Culture". That's impossible, there are millions of American cultures. You narrowed it down to one, it's not that simple.

I don't think it's wrong to say that we can do better. Is Kerry better? I think so, if only for the reason that he may actually govern for the people instead of his wallet. INstead of stubborn and disastrous resolve in the face of public sentiment, he might be smart enough to listen. W ain't.

That remains to be seen of course.

Cheers.

 

[BurlyShirley]

That is a great attitude. If I need to point out why that is so stupid then you're a lost cause.

Well its easy to be self important when you really are important. Im sure being the downtrodden new zealander has given you a much enlightened perspective, but seriously, we can still afford to pick and choose our friends to some level and Im perfectly OK with that. We'll be out of Iraq by February for the most part without the help of france or new zealand. At least the aussies got some good training out of it.

 

[Toshi]

Here's the way it works. People go to work all day long 5 days a week and get two off. They like to watch football and do yardwork and bring up their kids the way they were brought up. Bush, makes the promise that this lifestyle will continue. Kerry makes the promise that this lifestyle will continue only with certain changes. The debates are about these significant changes. The candidates are not THE SAME as some of you all would like the world to believe. They are simply at the ends of practical in the majority of the public mindset. It is not stupidity. Have a respect for culture please.

why the american people are stupid in light of your comments:

1) they believe bush's promises, especially when he told them to take a stand against terrorism by going shopping at the mall. they also fail to make the connection between the enormous cost of this war (in life and in dollars) and the long term health of the economy. we will NOT be able to "bring up [our] kids the way [we] were brought up" if we are in a state of orwellian perma-war.
2) that same 48% mentioned above (wasn't it 42%? whatever it is). while "connected" may be key to you, i doubt the poll-taking populace grasped that distinction, and that is why they are stupid

next, the "certain changes" kerry will make are raising taxes, supporting abortion and perhaps (i don't have much faith in him) restoring some of our curtailed civil liberties. i haven't seen any accusations of him being any more police state-happy than bush, for instance. i don't think he's even more of a proponent of gay-marriage than bush altho i guess he hasn't proposed a useless constitutional amendment, which probably wins bush points in the bible belt. basically, what are you talking about?

finally, the candidates do represent a small segment of the political spectrum. they are not there because the american people have narrowed down those two viewpoints as delineating the respective ends of political sanity. they are positioned as they are because their positions are the only ones that generate enough corporate fundraising to wage the hideously expensive campaigns that sway the public in this era (~$100 million this time around). does this too make the public stupid? yes. if they are swayed by irrelevant attack ads, sound bites and images of flags blowing in the patriotic breeze then they are stupid.

 

[BurlyShirley]

stupid stuff

Yeah whatever, but just so you know...Ive been living "stateside" for the last 3 months.

 

[Changleen]

Practically, yes. Culturally, both China and Russia are much the same as they've been family, home- wise for....forever. Which is what Im really getting at as important here.

Massive urbanisation, industrialisation, increased tourism, legal reform, womens rights, yup, Farmer Chan and Comrade Brezkov live exactly how they did 40 years ago.

 

[fluff]

You bend statistics to suit your arguments, which i should expect of course. I believe the stats said that 48% think that saddam was "connected" (key word) to 911. Not responsible. I think there is certainly a difference from an inferred connection by trivializing race/religion/ehtnicity and sheer ignorance of fact. Neither is right, but they arent the same.
Also, no freedoms I know of have been destroyed, I have plenty of trees and the rest of the world can kiss my a$$ honestly. I had the debate the other day about the environment and cutting down of the trees and of course no one offered up any numbers when I asked for them.

42% believe Saddam was 'directly involved' - Link

Rather more than an inferred connection.

For a guy who wants to be a journalist you seem woefully informed, overly trenchant and surprisingly unconcerned that the US population has been so misled; pretty much in the PR ball park though. Meanwhile your comment about the world kissing your a$$ shows that you mind is closed, ironic in a thread such as this.

For the record I don't think that Americans are any more stupid than the rest of the world, nor do I think there is any great difference in happiness. Such generalisations are impossible to quantify and therefore useless.

Oh, and the missing apostrophe in your thread title is a nice touch.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Well its easy to be self important when you really are important. Im sure being the downtrodden new zealander has given you a much enlightened perspective, but seriously, we can still afford to pick and choose our friends to some level and Im perfectly OK with that. We'll be out of Iraq by February for the most part without the help of france or new zealand. At least the aussies got some good training out of it.

you hit the nail on that!!!!.
that self-importance you just illustrated is delusional.

in a macro way, yeah US as a whole (usually the liberal US block) is a driving force in the world.

but person by person, all the grains of sand are the same, whether in a sandcastle, or in the pyramids.

and that self-imporatance seems to be endemic almost only in the right wingers, who are deeply convinced on that, and at the same time, they are less a driving force than the liberal US block, which is what actually pulled that country ahead. and they are the ones that build the image and identity of the US.

the US, as a whole, is a country of cultural innovation in the roots. the image of the US as a whole, is not that of of general lee, or that of polygamists, or of george wallace. those are just clusters, or stains in its society trying to mantain personally benefitial situations, by claming the name of masses.

your argument is comparable, to that of a flea in a lion, yelling at the "weak" fleas of dog.
both are still fleas, is that so hard to understand???

 

[fluff]

Is it just me, or is Modern day America Starting to look like a once great civilization of Rome?

Modern day America has a long way to go to equal the Roman Empire. I suspect its decline may be along similar lines though.

 

[ohio]

Last time I checked, my simple American life included a few things like due process of law, a CONSERVATIVE international policy*, and freedom to not be weighed down by a massive national deficit while trying to put my kids through college, among others.

Bush is the most big-government-liberal we've had in office since roosevelt (a time we actually needed it, and a pres who did big gov right)... the only think that makes him a Republican is the accent, the truck, and the big business ties.

*Yes, it's nice to have Saddam out of office, and he deserves the worst; however, let me be the one to say what Kerry doesn't have the balls to:
"There are a lot of wrongs in the world that we have the power to right... but not all at once. We would be better off if we had waited 2-3 years to oust Saddam, so that we could concentrate on Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. We could have been FAR more successful in Afghanistan, preserved a balanced budget, given the economy a chance to have a real recovery, would have been in no additional direct danger from Saddam and likely would have had some more international support (I don't mean pats on the back... I mean troops, eqt, fuel, etc.).

Also, you keep saying you don't care about the rest of the world, but then cite the Kurds as justification for Iraq (making life in the US more dangerous). If you're going to claim it's black and white, you've got to stick to your guns.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Humm... scratch a liberal's shell and you'll find a fascist underneath.

 

[ohio]

Humm... scratch a liberal's shell and you'll find a fascist underneath.

still don't know what that word means, huh?

 

[N8 v2.0]

still don't know what that word means, huh?

Lib's just can't stand opposing points of view and are rabidly fascist about it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

For a guy who wants to be a journalist you seem woefully informed, overly trenchant and surprisingly unconcerned that the US population has been so misled; pretty much in the PR ball park though.

Who the **** ever said Id want to be a journalist? Ack!

 

[fluff]

Who the **** ever said Id want to be a journalist? Ack!

Oops, my bad.

 

[T-Dog]

next, the "certain changes" kerry will make are raising taxes, supporting abortion and perhaps (i don't have much faith in him) restoring some of our curtailed civil liberties.....


Which civil liberties are you talking about? I haven't noticed any changes in my life since 9/11 (except that air travel security is much better).

 

[T-Dog]

Well, having seen the farce that is your newsmedia, they're probably right. Even these upcoming debates look to be nothing but another soundbitefest. And as someone posted earlier, was it 48% of Americans think Saddam was responsible for 9/11? That says to me that 48% of Americans at least don't have a clue.



Except that he is doing a lot of things that will change 'the American way of life' - Destroying all your precious freedoms, raping your environment, making the rest of the world hate you, etc. People just don't realise this, which is the problem.

Like what? I haven't seen ANY of my precious freedoms destroyed....protected is more like it. And RAPING the envrionment? What the hell are you talking about? Getting info from leftist media is not going to make you an expert on how logging and oil exploration and extraction impacts the evironment- actually working in those industries (I have) will. To stimulate the economy, create jobs and lessen dependence on foreign oil, these things have to be done. Unless you've seen it firsthand I'd refrain from using such inflammatory words as "rape".

 

[Toshi]

Which civil liberties are you talking about? I haven't noticed any changes in my life since 9/11 (except that air travel security is much better).

http://www.aclunc.org/911/scorecard.html

i've posted this before, as well as my analysis of it. important ones:

Ashcroft orders state and local government not to release names of people detained since 9/11

Ashcroft authorizes monitoring ofattorney-client conversations

Broad definition of 'domestic terrorism' allows surveillance of political dissenters

Wiretap powers expanded, in some cases with reduced judicial review

Law enforcement permitted to indefinitely detain non-citizens based on suspicion of terrorism

Ashcroft memo reduces government compliance with Freedom of Information Act requests

just because you don't notice something doesn't mean that it hasn't happened

 

[Jr_Bullit]

next, the "certain changes" kerry will make are raising taxes, supporting abortion and perhaps (i don't have much faith in him) restoring some of our curtailed civil liberties.....


Which civil liberties are you talking about? I haven't noticed any changes in my life since 9/11 (except that air travel security is much better).

Linky "The rights of ordinary Americans and others residing in the U.S. are being trampled on a daily basis -- in violation of a host of international laws and standards," said Cathy Albisa, a secretariat member who is based at CESR. "These include the right to economic security and a decent standard of living, the right of children convicted of crimes not to be executed, the right to a fair trial, the right to seek asylum, and the right to be free from torture and cruel and inhuman treatment, among any others," she added, noting that the U.S. has the developed world's highest child poverty rate and that 20 percent of adults are functionally illiterate.

"As the U.S. indulges an increasingly unilateralist bent in both domestic and foreign policy, the cost to rights at home and abroad is growing," said Baraka, who noted the rise in racial profiling, the summary detention and deportation of Muslim immigrants after Sep. 11, 2001, and the indefinite detention as "illegal combatants" at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, of hundreds of foreigners seized in Afghanistan and elsewhere as examples.

Bushy Stance

"The good news here is that there obviously (is) a concern about civil liberties, and this board brings together high-level officials to think about it," Rotenberg said. "The bad news is there is no mechanism in place to make sure they will get the job done."

The White House did not respond to a request for comment.