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2 gun free zones, 2 more shootings

$tinkle

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
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4 shot at new life church (colorado springs, co)
gunman kills 2 at arvada missionary training center (arvada, co)

flight-for-life & po-po helos flying around now...

edit to add: at the time of the incident, my wife & daughter (on their way to woodmen valley chapel for a kids' christmas thingie) thought they were going to get pulled by a cop tailgating them as they approached I-25, but he peeled off to new life. wife&daughter were locked down @ woodmen valley chapel immediately after new life shooting, but didn't know it.

i was shopping at the aptly named Target when every other persons' cell started ringing. all you heard was OMG, OMG, WTFrick! add to this new life was just starting to shed the ted haggard thing.
 
ATOMICFIREBALL

ATOMICFIREBALL

DISARMED IN A BATTLE OF WITS
May 26, 2004
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So,there are two shootings.
My first guess is it's some male Islamic wacko age between 20-30 years old, & not Santa Claus?
 
$tinkle

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
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i know it's not monday morning yet, but the quarterbacking can start:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=82473
Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers confirmed at a 5:40 p.m. press briefing that a church security guard shot and killed the gunman.
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seems that an excellent (& yet again proven) way to combat readily available guns is to make guns readily available.

but then i think: what if there are a dozen+ churchgoers who are packing? with no clear way to discern bad guy from good, when the cops get there, with information coming fast & furious, i would think it likely innocents would be mistaken & therefore shot.

by the by, these 2 CO shootings are indeed related. anyone want to join me in a segue from this?
"God did not cause this to happen," said Morrison, minister at Faith Bible Chapel
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but, if God is in control, and guides every living creature, and is not a passive god, then what other conclusion should there be? isn't like He took a day off, as silver has suggested. WTFlock, sheeple?
 
Silver

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
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$tinkle said:
anyone want to join me in a segue from this?but, if God is in control, and guides every living creature, and is not a passive god, then what other conclusion should there be? isn't like He took a day off, as silver has suggested. WTFlock, sheeple?
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You'd have to find a Christian to answer that one. It would take the logic of a person who believes in the Trinity and assures you that he is a monotheist to figure it out...
 
valve bouncer

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
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Japan
I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that churches need security guards.

"What part of Sunday f*cken best don't you understand sunshine?"
 
RenegadeRick

RenegadeRick

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Feb 22, 2006
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$tinkle said:
i know it's not monday morning yet, but the quarterbacking can start:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=82473seems that an excellent (& yet again proven) way to combat readily available guns is to make guns readily available.

but then i think: what if there are a dozen+ churchgoers who are packing? with no clear way to discern bad guy from good, when the cops get there, with information coming fast & furious, i would think it likely innocents would be mistaken & therefore shot.
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My eSpeculation is that if the people had guns to defend themselves in the first shooting, it would be over by the time the po po arrived. Sure, they might taser a few folks for good measure, but it seems they would be hard pressed to actually shoot people when the gunplay had ended already.

Anyone know how long it took the law to arrive anyhow? I'm guessing quite a bit longer than it would have taken to pull a trigger for justice.
 
Toshi

Toshi

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Oct 23, 2001
38,405
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point 1: we can all agree that americans are not universally competent with cars. why would they be any more skilled or prudent in their use of guns?

point 2: show me that you -- you being a general term for those who would use these events to push for more "guns allowed" zones -- understand the difference between correlation and causality...
 
$tinkle

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
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Toshi said:
point 1: we can all agree that americans are not universally competent with cars. why would they be any more skilled or prudent in their use of guns?
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add to that guns aren't used everyday, and when use becomes necessary they're welded rather recklessly (not a fixed silhouette & using breath control).

i think the solution may reside with aggressive convictions for gun dealers & irresponsible owners.

how cool is it the security guard who killed the perp is a woman? i'm looking forward to her interview. apparently they had a heads' up from the shooting 12 hrs earlier in arvada & awareness was heightened.
 
MikeD

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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As a security professional, I'm basically working in a culture that wants to control an area, disarm everyone inside, and use a professional force of trained individuals to provide protection.

However, this isn't a model I can apply to a city, state, or country as a whole...I think it only works on a microcosmic scale. I think people are entitled to protect themselves. And when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

There are the obvious drawback of potential fratricide, uncoordinated police response, etc. Obviously, a professionally trained and integrated armed response to violence is the best. But we don't live in a perfect world, and I'd rather people could take direct action against deadly threats, immediately, than cower and hope someone else comes to save them. Typically, civilian self-defense situations are over within a few shots.

Plus, in the age of cell phones, the police can be more situationally aware...in the aftermath of a shooting or the like, they have a better chance of knowing what's going on inside than they might have before. Besides, even in the mall shooting, all they did was establish a perimeter; they don't have Delta Force dropping in from helicopters and doing a dynamic entry into the building.
 
$tinkle

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
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security guard (jeanne assam) who shot perp:


various streams, incl interview w/ jeanne, available here
 
$tinkle

$tinkle

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what a poor, misunderstood young man. he was just trying to end the single biggest cause of misery and bigotry in the world (religion) by murdering as many christians as he could.
 
BMXman

BMXman

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Sep 8, 2001
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Toshi said:
point 1: we can all agree that americans are not universally competent with cars. why would they be any more skilled or prudent in their use of guns?
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exactly...at least you have to complete drivers training to drive a car!!!...D
 
MikeD

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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There are a lot of states which have training requirements to carry a gun...I think all of them should, and they should probably be more stringent. However, I also think that any state should be obligated to issue you a carry permit unless you're a convicted felon or mentally disturbed individual...
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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MikeD said:
There are a lot of states which have training requirements to carry a gun...I think all of them should, and they should probably be more stringent. However, I also think that any state should be obligated to issue you a carry permit unless you're a convicted felon or mentally disturbed individual...
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There are plenty of unconvicted and undiagnosed criminals and psychopaths out there. I like NY states laws. You need C&C permit to own a handgun. Permits require character references from good sources. Aside from some red tape it isn't hard at all for an honest person to get one but it can be for some scumbag.

The truth remains statistically a gun is still 20 times more likely to accidentally kill someone than it will be to shoot someone in self defense.
 
MikeD

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,698
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Westy said:
There are plenty of unconvicted and undiagnosed criminals and psychopaths out there. I like NY states laws. You need C&C permit to own a handgun. Permits require character references from good sources. Aside from some red tape it isn't hard at all for an honest person to get one but it can be for some scumbag.

The truth remains statistically a gun is still 20 times more likely to accidentally kill someone than it will be to shoot someone in self defense.
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Works for me...
 
$tinkle

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
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Westy said:
The truth remains statistically a gun is still 20 times more likely to accidentally kill someone than it will be to shoot someone in self defense.
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by "shoot" do you mean "kill", and vice versa?
looks to me like an apples & oranges thing, & 20X seems high, but i am just thinking out of my ass
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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$tinkle said:
by "shoot" do you mean "kill", and vice versa?
looks to me like an apples & oranges thing, & 20X seems high, but i am just thinking out of my ass
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I can't find the source as I heard it on the radio. But I think it was comparing accidental deaths to shooting and killing in self defense. Not apples and oranges but it is a bit too specific as it does not cover incidences when people like N 8 deter fight crime by simply flashing their pieces.
 
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