[MMike]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=loose+change&pl=true

I'm still working on watching this whole thing. I'm about a half hour into it..... I hate to admit that it's making me think. I always did have a hard time with the pentagon plane COMPLETELY dissolving...I mean seriously... At the very least the ENGINES should have survived....as they are designed to house the fire that supposedly consumed them. That makes no sense....

Anyone know a good tin foil milliner?

 

[Changleen]

The near freefall collapse of the three towers and the very fact that WTC7 fell at all are the shadiest things I think. But there are a million shady details too.

 

[Toshi]

nope, you're not alone:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148060

 

[MMike]

Sweet....

BTW, I watched the trailer.... People do need to keep in mind (regarding the small diameter of the engine part they found). The engine are FAR from filling the nacelle. Only the fan is 7 feet in the dia. The actual engine part is WAY smaller.

PW2000

 

[Changleen]

And the fan blades in modern engine are practically indestructable.

 

[MMike]

better pic

 

[MMike]

Now I've not had time to research this, but when I worked at Pratt and Whitney way back when, we were doing an engine where all of the plumbing was titanium. I don't rember the specifics, but I remember people being concerned about titanium fires.....apparently Ti will burn in a manner similar to magnesium....and anyone who's done high chemistry knows how much fun that is!

I really don't know what the required conditions are in order to ignite Ti.... but that would explain engine casings disappearing...HOWEVER, the fire would have to be REALLY hot.... and a puddle of jet fuel on the ground burns much cooler than when it's injected into the gas generator....so even a Ti fire theory is sketchy at best...

 

[Changleen]

1) What about the blades?

2) ti·ta·ni·um (tī-tā'nē-əm, tĭ-) pronunciation
n. (Symbol Ti)

A strong, low-density, highly corrosion-resistant, lustrous white metallic element that occurs widely in igneous rocks and is used to alloy aircraft metals for low weight, strength, and high-temperature stability. Atomic number 22; atomic weight 47.87 melting point 1,660°C; boiling point 3,287°C; specific gravity 4.54; valence 2, 3, 4.

Titanium, like magnesium, is classified as a combustible metal, but again the size and shape of the metal determine to a great extent whether or not it will ignite. Castings and other massive pieces of titanium are not combustible under ordinary conditions. Small chips, fine turnings, and dust ignite readily and, once ignited, burn with the release of large quantities of heat. Tests have shown that very thin chips and fine turnings could be ignited by a match and heavier chips and turnings by a Bunsen burner. Coarse chips and turnings 0.79 by 2.7 mm (1/32 by 3/28 in.) or larger may be considered as difficult to ignite, but unless it is known that smaller particles are not mixed with the coarser material in significant amounts, it is wise to assume easy ignition is possible.

Finely divided titanium in the form of dust clouds or layers does not ignite spontaneously (differing in this respect from zirconium, plutonium, and certain other metals). Ignition temperatures of titanium dust clouds in air range from 332 to 588 degrees C (630 to 1,090 degrees F), and of titanium dust layers from 382 to 510 degrees C (720 to 950 degrees F). Titanium dust can be ignited in atmospheres of carbon dioxide or nitrogen. Titanium surfaces that have been treated with nitric acid, particularly with red fuming nitric acid containing 10 to 20% nitrogen tetroxide, become pyrophoric and may be explosive.

The unusual conditions under which massive titanium shapes will ignite spontaneously include contact with liquid oxygen, in which case it may explode on contact. It has been found that under static conditions spontaneous ignition will take place in pure oxygen at pressures of at least 2,413 kPa (350 psi). If the oxygen was diluted, the required pressure increased, but in no instance did spontaneous heating occur in oxygen concentrations less than 35%. Another requirement for spontaneous heating is a fresh surface which oxidizes rapidly and exothermically in an oxygen atmosphere.

3) All the Ti, Al, Nickle, Steel etc. would have to have burnt in it's entirety in the few minutes before the first cameras and pictures were taken. Yet the cable spools, which would have been in the middle of such a fire remained intact. Really?


Or maybe they parked a container of LOX outside specially....

 

[MMike]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

The metal, which burns when heated in air 610 °C or higher (forming titanium dioxide) is also one of the only elements that burn in pure nitrogen gas (it burns at 800 °C and forms titanium nitride).

 

[syadasti]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

The components would be an Ti alloy though, right? Aren't the properties different?

 

[Changleen]

better pic

And every trace of two of those has to be gone in a few minutes of burning, and not penetrate the building in the first place when supposedly the far weaker fusilage, with it's thin carbon fibre nose cone managed to punch a hole through 3 rings?

 

[Changleen]

The components would be an Ti alloy though, right? Aren't the properties different?

Yes. And see above, The Ti has to be a powder to ignite at such temps.

 

[Changleen]

Part of the only engine found at the Pentagon:

ONE of the engines of the plane that supposedly hit:

 

[Changleen]

Even if the smaller engine (Which certainly looks like a jet's axle to me) was part of a secondary power supply as claimed by some, if that survived so surely would the MUCH larger actual engines??

 

[MMike]

1) The part that survived is about the size of the parts found in the guts of the engine. The fan is only spinning component that is that large.

2) APU's are much smaller than the propulsion engines.

 

[Changleen]

1) The part that survived is about the size of the parts found in the guts of the engine. The fan is only spinning component that is that large.

So is it conceivable that the entire rest of the other one and a half engines were vapourised in your opinion? And if it is the internals of one of the other engines how did it get inside the small hole made in the center of the impact? Did it bounce of the wall of the Pentagon, into something else, then back inside the central hole somehow? Also what about the fan blades themselves? You know what they are made of right? Great big ones like on your engine could not just disapear.

2) APU's are much smaller than the propulsion engines.

Again, if it is the APU and survived, why did the main engines not?

 

[Jm_]

Part of the only engine found at the Pentagon:

That's the turbine section, not the compressor. The size of it is right on with the engine. It's in the part of the engine that's right above that guys head.

You guys are turning into crackpots. The simplest explaination is usually the right one, but you're trying to add more meaning to a terrible situation by comming up with these crazy theorys and conspiracies. The physics of an aircraft traveling in excess of 300kts will do the damage seen, and leave no large parts intact. The aircraft completely breaks up upon impact, the kinetic energy released is tremendous.

 

[Jm_]

So is it conceivable that the entire rest of the other one and a half engines were vapourised in your opinion? And if it is the internals of one of the other engines how did it get inside the small hole made in the center of the impact?

It crashed just short of the pentagon, wings came off when it hit the ground, fuselage went right into the building due to the extreme amount of kinetic energy, and the wings and some other debri went with it into the building. There are photos of all the stuff found within the building.

 

[Changleen]

That's the turbine section, not the compressor. The size of it is right on with the engine.

You guys are turning into crackpots. The simplest explaination is usually the right one, but you're trying to add more meaning to a terrible situation by comming up with these crazy theorys and conspiracies. The physics of an aircraft traveling in excess of 300kts will do the damage seen, and leave no large parts intact. The aircraft completely breaks up upon impact, the kinetic energy released is tremendous.

Except that in basically every other aircraft crash, including those in which planes have flown into the side of mountains at full speed, there have been huge chunks of debris lying around. Why is the Pentagon (which I'm sure is not as strong as a solid rock mountainside) so different?

 

[Changleen]

It crashed just short of the pentagon, wings came off when it hit the ground, fuselage went right into the building due to the extreme amount of kinetic energy, and the wings and some other debri went with it into the building. There are photos of all the stuff found within the building.

Show me. There are photos of a few tiny pieces. That is all. Do you really think the wings folded up and followed the plane into the building, then were vapourised in the subsequent short fire? In most crashes the wings shear off and are found away from the debris of the plane. Again, how did 100 tons of mostly Al, but also various Ti, Steels, and other aircraft grade alloys just vapourise in a few minutes when this has never happened before?

 

[Changleen]

It crashed just short of the pentagon,

Where is the impact crater?

 

[syadasti]

Again, how did 100 tons of mostly Al, but also various Ti, Steels, and other aircraft grade alloys just vapourise in a few minutes when this has never happened before?

They can vaporize instantly on impact:

Plane Dusted by Wall at 500 mph

 

[RenegadeRick]

The "no plane hit the Pentagon" theory has been largely discredited. It is widely believed to be disinfo. Does it really matter what hit the Pentagon anyhow?

What seems more significant is how can a plane that is known hijacked be allowed to remain in the air for over 30 minutes in the most heavily defended airspace in the world? Even after 2 planes have already struck the twin towers?

This is from page 51 of the official 911 commission report.

 

[Changleen]

They can vaporize instantly on impact:

Plane Dusted by Wall at 500 mph

Yeah, that's a slightly thicker wall... Secondly, part of whatever hit the pentagon did not vapourise but penetrated through to the third circle, where there is a hole. What was it? Where did it go? It was apparantly quite small.

 

[Changleen]

The "no plane hit the Pentagon" theory has been largely discredited. It is widely believed to be disinfo. Does it really matter what hit the Pentagon anyhow?

What seems more significant is how can a plane that is known hijacked be allowed to remain in the air for over 30 minutes in the most heavily defended airspace in the world? Even after 2 planes have already struck the twin towers?

This is from page 51 of the official 911 commission report.

Maybe maybe not discredited. IMO there are still a lot of questions. However you are right, this is secondary to other questions such as the one you ask and the point I made at the beginning of the thread.

 

[-dustin]

someone's been reading MTBR.....

was anyone here directly affected by what happened on 9/11? kind of curious what they think about this stuff.

 

[Changleen]

someone's been reading MTBR.....

Heh, Not fvcking me...

 

[MMike]

Believe me.... I would like nothing more than to not be a crackpot.... But adjacent windows remaining intact....a little weird.

I dunno.

 

[syadasti]

Believe me.... I would like nothing more than to not be a crackpot.... But adjacent windows remaining intact....a little weird.

I agree.

Its obviously possible for the jet to mostly atomize on impact, but there would be more damage to the building/ground if that occured.

 

[RenegadeRick]

...and the point I made at the beginning of the thread.

WTC 7's collapse is unprecedented. Guiliani being warned about its imminent collapse makes it all the more interesting. Watch the video at the bottom of the page.

I would like to know who knew the building was coming down in advance, and how they knew this.

Questions, questions...

 

[BurlyShirley]

I agree.

Its obviously possible for the jet to mostly atomize on impact, but there would be more damage to the building/ground if that occured.

How many other buildings built to withstand bombings have you seen get hit by airliners?

 

[syadasti]

How many other buildings built to withstand bombings have you seen get hit by airliners?

One. Did you watch the F4 going 500 mph get atomized by the nuclear spec armored wall?

F4 dusted by wall

 

[-dustin]

One. Did you watch the F4 going 500 mph get atomized by the nuclear spec armored wall?

F4 dusted by wall

that was badass

 

[Changleen]

Again, neither of those are pertinent. There was a hole in the Pentagon, penetration DID occur but the hole wasn't big enough to fit the whole jet into.

And again, this is a small point to argue considering the massive volume of other shady **** that went down on the day.

 

[-dustin]

other shady **** that went down on the day.

yeah, like me having to be the first to sight-sing a simplified Bach piece.

 

[Da Peach]

It all sounds spooky to me. But the unaffected winodows just adjacent to the the hole in the Pentagon seem a bit too much. And what about the part with the tripod shaking before the collapse of one of the towers? That could really have been just about anything. Like maybe someone bumping the tripod perhaps?

The movie gets a little confusing with what happened to the plane that allegedly crashed in the field. Or did not...

 

[MMike]

Yeah....even if the plane did "instantly vapourize", I don't see how that could have happened before the engines had a chance to hit the building.

 

[Jm_]

Where is the impact crater?

There is no impact crater, look at the airliner that was flown into the ground, or any crash that happened in that way. It doesn't happen, the ground is solid, the plane is not.

 

[Jm_]

One. Did you watch the F4 going 500 mph get atomized by the nuclear spec armored wall?

F4 dusted by wall

Cool.

A 757 would have about 4 or 5 times that amount of energy.

 

[MMike]

I've not wathced the "dusted" video...blocked by firewall here....

But I'm assuming the wall remains intact? Basically shouldn't there only be one winner? Wall remains intact, plane is vapourized. OR walls collapse, plane is completely FUBAR, but at least it's still there. Obvioulsy some math would have to be done, but I question that there would be enough enough in the system to plow though that many feet of concrete AND vapourize a pretty good sized plane.....

I'm totally pulling all of this out of my ass, but I can't help but still be skeptical.