[s1ngletrack]

I suppose that might be a step in the right direction - fortunately, I don't have to decide (not directly) how to handle the issue.

I still think that you are just arguing with me because you didn't like my calendar girl avatar the other day

 

[Archslater]

True - I just dont believe that it is realistic to think that banning certain types of guns is going to decrease crime, in fact, I believe the opposite - but I will agree that it probably would cut down significantly on gun related deaths. (not that I think that this make a compelling argument for doing so)

You don't have to believe it, statistics speak for themselves on this one. One of the main focuses of my research geek fiance's dissertation is a gun access index, which charts the relationship between violent crimes, murder, and gun suicide rates, and ease of gun access in each U.S. state. The data is fairly consistant.

I'm not some radical trying to ban all guns, In fact I come from a family of deer hunters. I just think that we need to take a close look at our state laws, and how easy it is for anyone to obtain these weapons.

 

[Lexx D]

but I will agree that it probably would cut down significantly on gun related deaths. (not that I think that this make a compelling argument for doing so)

If cutting down on gun related deaths isn't a good enough argument then what is. Why is anything illegal if all it's doing is cutting down on deaths?

 

[dan-o]

You don't have to believe it, statistics speak for themselves on this one. One of the main focuses of my research geek fiance's dissertation is a gun access index, which charts the relationship between violent crimes, murder, and gun suicide rates, and ease of gun access in each U.S. state. The data is fairly consistant.

I'm not some radical trying to ban all guns, In fact I come from a family of deer hunters. I just think that we need to take a close look at our state laws, and how easy it is for anyone to obtain these weapons.

Does that research show the type of gun used in crimes (handgun, "assault", hunting etc)? Just curious.

 

[s1ngletrack]

If cutting down on gun related deaths isn't a good enough argument then what is. Why is anything illegal if all it's doing is cutting down on deaths?

There are tons of watersport related deaths too - whose to say that one hobby (within reason) is good while the other is bad? Surely we could cut down on deaths by outlawing boating or alcohol, or both, after all, in the bigger picture neither one serves a practical purpose (not including commercial fishing, etc.. just as cops would not be disarmed)

 

[Archslater]

There are tons of watersport related deaths too - whose to say that one hobby (within reason) is good while the other is bad? Surely we could cut down on deaths by outlawing boating or alcohol, or both, after all, in the bigger picture neither one serves a practical purpose (not including commercial fishing, etc.. just as cops would not be disarmed)

Sure, Guns, boats, they are all the same???? Assault weapons and handguns are made specifically to kill people, but other than that, I can't really think of any other differences. Lets be reasonable here.

To answer your question, dan-o, although my eyes tend to glaze over when she starts talking about statistics, her dissertation deals specifically with Older Adult Handgun Suicide although the original index she started with showed all gun violence, she separated out the handgun statistics. Can't say that there are too many old folks killing themselves with AK 47's.

 

[stanky_dlx]

Can't say i have. I'm not on some anti-gun rant. All i'm saying is that i don't think it's needed, not even for a that good old fun of mowing down prairie dogs. What i'm saying is you can shoot those prairie dogs with a 30-30 so again where's the need for a 100 round clip. Is it being lazy? Yeah those blood thirsty prairie dogs are sure to kill you if you don't get that first 100 rounds out fast and scare them.

Hell I love shooting, the last time I went we shot off 800 rounds in a matter of hours, ak-47, Daewoo M-16, SkS, and a glock 45. Hell we just shot cans in my buddies back yard. Good time but you'll never convince me that the general public needs access to "assault type" rifles. You can spout all your NRA "it's just like a hunting rifle only looks cooler" bull****. Fact is within 15 minutes online you can google and find a easy way to make an AK fully auto(It's the removal of like one little spring I've seen it done). Sorry but the only people who would need anything like this is the police.

Hmm, I think you missed the point...it's freedom of choice. You don't need anything more than a singleshot rifle/pistol/shotgun. Same as you don't need more than a rigid singlespeed. Heck do you really even need a gun or a bike at all? If you enjoy shooting "800 rounds in a matter of hours" or riding your 8" FS rig shouldn't you have the freedom to?

About those praire dogs. Praire dogs are tougher to shoot than you think. No they are not "blood thirsty" but they are extremely wary. They even post sentries to keep an eye out for danger. You'd have about as much luck shooting them with a 30-30 as you would riding a full rigid single speed down A-Line. Yeah, it can be done but it probably would be slow going and painfull. You want a flat shooting round with some reach as the P-dogs will sound an alarm if you are within eyesight, then hide in holes/dens in the ground. This generally means you're going to want a high velocity round. Like a 223/556 (same round as an AR/M16 or that Daewoo you're familiar with). Since you have to be a good distance from them, and you're shooting a high velocity round you enevitably end up heating up the barrel. That's a bad thing for your barrel (accelerates wear). So that last thing you're gonna want to do is dump a 100 rds as fast as you can. I wanted the large mag because suprisingly enough your thumbs get raw when you have to reload your "5 round hunting" magazines over and over again. The 100rd Betamag's have a niffty loader that saves your thumbs.

NRA Bull****? I simply pointed out the that your comments were incorrect. The AK is reliable, the AK is reasonibly accurate, the AR is very accurate, and there is a place for hi capacity magazines. So there is a "need" for people outside of the police to have them.

Last thing you should know. Removing the spring to make an AK full automatic is not only illegal (federal law) it's dangerous. That semi auto disconnector spring in an AK is ther for a reason. It prohibits the rifle from becoming a "slam fire" machine gun. Slam fire machineguns that you've admitted to have witnessed being built have a tendency of firing out of battery sooner or later. Not a good day if you have a out of battery explosion next to your face or if you're implicated because you were foolish enough to be around someone who thinks it's cool to have an unregistered machine gun.

 

[stanky_dlx]

You don't have to believe it, statistics speak for themselves on this one. One of the main focuses of my research geek fiance's dissertation is a gun access index, which charts the relationship between violent crimes, murder, and gun suicide rates, and ease of gun access in each U.S. state. The data is fairly consistant.

Interesting...what data did she use to formulate her hypothesis? Has she looked at the work done by John Lott?

 

[chicodude]

i was on an epic mounatin ride way up in the back country, I had stopped to fix my derailer, and what do i hear?

A fully automatic gun firing behind me in the distance. It kinda freaked me out that there are some crazy rednecks wondering around the hills i ride on with fully automatic weapons....................

 

[Archslater]

Interesting...what data did she use to formulate her hypothesis? Has she looked at the work done by John Lott?

Again, my eyes glaze over...... It gets very complicated, etc.... She has a list of variables for each state, including ease of gun access, political climate, NRA strength, elderly handgun suicide rates, gun violence index.... She has gotten much of her data from state government websites, police statistics, etc..... although I couldn't name specific authors. She is using structural equation modeling software to analyze the date. If you are really interested, PM me, I wouldn't want to bore anyone reading this forum (including myself).

 

[fluff]

There are tons of watersport related deaths too - whose to say that one hobby (within reason) is good while the other is bad? Surely we could cut down on deaths by outlawing boating or alcohol, or both, after all, in the bigger picture neither one serves a practical purpose (not including commercial fishing, etc.. just as cops would not be disarmed)

I think the idea is to cut down on numbers of people being killed by others. Most people who die participating in watersports kill only themselves, not others. It's not the same thing at all.

 

[Westy]

I think the idea is to cut down on numbers of people being killed by others. Most people who die participating in watersports kill only themselves, not others. It's not the same thing at all.

Then cars should be outlawed.

 

[fluff]

Then cars should be outlawed.

I was just pointing out the flawed logic.

Outlaw victims. Make being killed a capital offence and it closes the loop nicely.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Argue all you want with HCI/CDC's deceitful bullshi+ statistics, but the fact remains that there are more than enough guns currently in circulation to arm several insurrections. Pass all the feel-good politrick laws you want for cheap votes but guns don't need born-on dates. They aren't going anywhere fast and you may as well learn now to coexist with those of us who own them because all the Michael Moore pipedreams stacked end-to-end won't change that.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I was just talking to my architect about shooting a high power match with our M1's so we could qualify to buy a 1903 Springfield and... just maybe... a DCM M-14.

M-14's are my fav... as long as someone else is humping the extra ammo...

 

[jdcamb]

Nah! Not worried about the ban expirirng at all. I am more worried about the illegal guns on the streets then of the legal ones. Someone that goes through the permit process has a lot to lose by not using a firearm within the parameters of the law. Whereas someone who would illegally carry any firearm typically has nothing to lose whether it is a assault weapon or not.....jdcamb

 

[genpowell71]

I think my esteemed collegue JD said it best. Worry about whats already out there. Modifying an AK-47 is easy. All it requires is a 30rd magazine. Being one that plans to retire from the military and already has a job lined up with homeland security, I'm more concerned about what I have to look out for when I'm on the job. Ask any cop the same thing, and they'll tell you the same thing I just did.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Your chances of being shot with a cheap-assed Jennings J-22 or Davis 380 far outweigh your chances of being shot with an "assault rifle". Quit worrying foolishly about being killed w/an assault rifle and instead, learn to drive competently and subsist on something that isn't deep fried.

 

[biggins]

nope. sure dont care.

 

[Skookum]

 

[Archslater]

Quit worrying foolishly about being killed w/an assault rifle and instead, learn to drive competently and subsist on something that isn't deep fried.

Why shouldn't I eat deep fried food? Sure the numbers from the American Heart Association may suggest that it is bad for you, but I'm sure those are just "deceitful bullshi+ statistics too".

 

[TheMontashu]

Do any of you know what the assault weapon ban is about? Do any of you know that fully automatic weapons were banned in the 20s due to mobster with Tommy guns? The assault weapon ban is for guns with a extended pistol grip and one of the other following classifications (u can have all but the pistol grip and your good.) removable magazine, flash suppressor, compensator, moderator/silencer, and bayonet lug. The ban is stupid and I thank god that its going to go by by. So before formulating opinions about the repealing of a law know what the law is.

 

[LordOpie]

Do any of you know what the assault weapon ban is about? Do any of you know that fully automatic weapons were banned in the 20s due to mobster with Tommy guns? The assault weapon ban is for guns with a extended pistol grip and one of the other following classifications (u can have all but the pistol grip and your good.) removable magazine, flash suppressor, compensator, moderator/silencer, and bayonet lug. The ban is stupid and I thank god that its going to go by by. So before formulating opinions about the repealing of a law know what the law is.

holy sh:t! that was a fairly intelligent, kinda well written post. Okay, who's using TheM's account?

 

[TheMontashu]

I'm usinimg my own accunt.

 

[MorphineFreak]

First of all the people that are going to kill people arn't really law abiding citizens, why would a law banning them from using them weapons stop them? so the only people that have the guns are the crimanals and the cops, if they plan on killing somone, I doubt they are going to worry about if it's against the law to posses the certain firearm they are using. If someone really wants to kill someone they are going to do it with or with out a gun...bottom line it's just one more right to take away from law abiding citizins, because they are the only ones that will follow that law.

 

[TheMontashu]

First of all the people that are going to kill people arn't really law abiding citizens, why would a law banning them from using them weapons stop them? so the only people that have the guns are the crimanals and the cops, if they plan on killing somone, I doubt they are going to worry about if it's against the law to posses the certain firearm they are using. If someone really wants to kill someone they are going to do it with or with out a gun...bottom line it's just one more right to take away from law abiding citizins, because they are the only ones that will follow that law.

i 2nd that statement

 

[llkoolkeg]

Why shouldn't I eat deep fried food? Sure the numbers from the American Heart Association may suggest that it is bad for you, but I'm sure those are just "deceitful bullshi+ statistics too".

I'm sure their numbers are based on a generous interpretation of raw data supportive of the agenda they push, but I was actually speaking from experience. Medically speaking, I know what finishes all the males in my family line!

 

[Archslater]

I'm sure their numbers are based on a generous interpretation of raw data supportive of the agenda they push, but I was actually speaking from experience. Medically speaking, I know what finishes all the males in my family line!

Sorry, guess I took your statement a bit personally, since my fiancee's dissertation deals with the subject matter..... I assure you that she is approaching it from a very scientific perspective, although her research deals more with policy regarding handguns. I agree the way the Assault weapon law is written is a tad silly.

 

[TheMontashu]

It’s a proven fact that in countries that have guns in every household and people that are trained how to use them there is less crime.(in Switzerland EVORY house has to have a gun with at least 500rounds of ammo, there was 1 gun death there last year.) and when you ban guns crime goes up.(in Australia guns were banned and violent crime went up 400%)

 

[fluff]

It’s a proven fact that in countries that have guns in every household and people that are trained how to use them there is less crime.(in Switzerland EVORY house has to have a gun with at least 500rounds of ammo, there was 1 gun death there last year.) and when you ban guns crime goes up.(in Australia guns were banned and violent crime went up 400%)

I'd like to see the source data for that, do you have any links?

 

[Archslater]

It’s a proven fact that in countries that have guns in every household and people that are trained how to use them there is less crime.(in Switzerland EVORY house has to have a gun with at least 500rounds of ammo, there was 1 gun death there last year.) and when you ban guns crime goes up.(in Australia guns were banned and violent crime went up 400%)

Switzerland is hardly a valid comparison to the US. Have you looked into their history of neutrality, dating back to the 1200's, their social, and geographic factors, and strong emphasis on community duty? I urge you to do a little research (and not from John Lott). Also, all swiss males are trained to serve in the military... and the government has strict control of handing out these weapons to men in the military. This might be a little closer to what our framers refered to as a "well regulated militia". Of course Switzerland could help the argument that Cultural conditions have as much to do with violence as gun laws.

Also interesting is that their suicide rate is double that of the U.S.

 

[valve bouncer]

and when you ban guns crime goes up.(in Australia guns were banned and violent crime went up 400%)

Complete and utter bullsh*t.....only certain members of this forum are allowed to pull bogus figures out their arse and you're not one of them.

 

[TheMontashu]

300 not 400 sorry about that
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=41400

 

[fluff]

300 not 400 sorry about that
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=41400

More effort required; D minus

 

[N8 v2.0]

More effort required; D minus

Can you even own a handgun?

 

[TheMontashu]

where here??

 

[nicklin]

since there will always be the band wagon of "no one needs this type of weapon", I'll throw this out there, it may be from the NRA, but a lot of facts never the less


PS, i'm not an NRA member, but this site did a good job of see from the other side.

http://www.clintongunban.com

 

[TheMontashu]

the ban does not ban asault rifles it bans guns that LOOK LIKE ausalt rifles

fully automatic fireamrs were banned in the 20's

 

[nicklin]

true. the downfall of the Dems in this issue is that the politicians who made this ban don't even know what they were talking about and simply went after the cosmetics for the soccer mom's sympathy votes. for those who don't understand guns, caliber, grain count of the projectile, shape of the projectile, muzzle velocity and energy are much more realistic measure of which guns are considered "dangerous". but hey, when you got Feinstein sponsoring a bill, you can count her to know the real effect of the bill, right?

 

[stanky_dlx]

Do any of you know what the assault weapon ban is about? Do any of you know that fully automatic weapons were banned in the 20s due to mobster with Tommy guns? The assault weapon ban is for guns with a extended pistol grip and one of the other following classifications (u can have all but the pistol grip and your good.) removable magazine, flash suppressor, compensator, moderator/silencer, and bayonet lug. The ban is stupid and I thank god that its going to go by by. So before formulating opinions about the repealing of a law know what the law is.

Just an FYI. Full auto weapons were not banned in the 20's. In 1934 the National Firearms Act was passed. What this did is put a tax on the sale and transfer of machineguns, silencers, short barreled rifles/shotguns, and AOW (any other weapon...smooth bore pistols and other firearms that didn't quite fit the definitions of a rifle, pistol, or shotgun). Back in '34 a Thompson could be had over the counter for less than $100. By taxing the sale at 200%+ ($200) the government affectively put a halt to the sale of machineguns. Of course crooks didn't care and continued to buy/use machineguns illegally. All that changed is the gov't had another charge that could be levied against a crook/mobster. To this day you can purchase a machinegun legally in over 30 states (I forget the exact number). Some states though do ban posession. Simply buy the gun, fill out the ATF paperwork, get fingerprinted, photographed, obtain law enforcement signature, cut a check for $200 to the ATF and you're set...as long as you're fbi background check comes back that you're not a fugative.

Also: Not that it matters much but in 1986 Firearm Owners Protection act was passed limiting the NEW manufacture of machine guns (how does this protect firearm owners?). Thus supply has been fixed, and demand has increased. You're lucky to find an transferrable (manufactured and registered before '86) M16 for less than $8000. Your run of the mill Mac 10/11 is roughly $2000. The more exotic pieces like a M60 are $20K+ , how about a Mag 58 (M240)? $175k or a GE minigun (8 transferrable) $300,000+. Pretty much anyone who own legal transferrable machine guns are NOT who you need to be worrying about.