[sundaydoug]

I see room for both to thrive.

For each one of us mega-enthusiasts, there are one hundred recreational type riders. These are people either just getting into the sport or the type that need to have someone else do their wrenching. In my opinion this is where a good LBS can have its niche and get a piece of the pie. I'm sure that the internet has hurt LBS business substantially, but businesses have to be able to adapt to ever-changing market conditions.

I see the online retailer business growing particularly with those of us that know exactly what we want and just need to find the least expensive way to get it. We don't need to sit on a bike with 3 different stem lengths and ask a shop employee a bunch of questions to know that we need a 70mm stem. I can find the exact stem that I want and have a comprehensive price comparison in about 30 seconds online.

Where I've found LBS's lacking in my area is the selection. I would way rather buy something in person at a bike shop, but the "I don't have it, but I can order it" routine gets old. I needed a crown race setting tool for a 1.125" fork today and after going to 3 shops I just decided to go to Home Depot and try using a 1.25" diameter piece of PVC pipe. I'm not expecting a LBS to have everything, but after a few times of not having something that I'm looking for I'm going to go to the place where I know I can get it.

FYI: PVC pipe doesn't work well as a crown race setting tool.

 

[jimmydean]

This. The manufacturers are screwing over their own retailers to move stock.

Iron Horse? I was damn happy with my IH and I got it from my LBS for less than I could find online. Then the following year, you could buy direct from IH for the same price or less than most shops.

How is this a good idea? I'm no business major, but this seems like a bad idea and it seems to have worked out well for them, too.

 

[sundaydoug]

Iron Horse? I was damn happy with my IH and I got it from my LBS for less than I could find online. Then the following year, you could buy direct from IH for the same price or less than most shops.

How is this a good idea? I'm no business major, but this seems like a bad idea and it seems to have worked out well for them, too.

A company on the verge of going out of business will do anything to liquidate its stock. You're right, it's not a good idea if you plan on staying in business and maintaining relationships with your dealers. On the other hand, if you're on the way out then it makes business sense to just get rid of everything.

It didn't really work out for them. Sure, Randall Scott made some money by buying frames dirt cheap and selling them for profit (hell, I have one), but IH went out of business in quite a bit of debt. There's also that small invaluable, unquantifiable aspect of a company called "reputation".

 

[IH8Rice]

I needed a crown race setting tool for a 1.125" fork today and after going to 3 shops I just decided to go to Home Depot and try using a 1.25" diameter piece of PVC pipe. I'm not expecting a LBS to have everything, but after a few times of not having something that I'm looking for I'm going to go to the place where I know I can get it.

FYI: PVC pipe doesn't work well as a crown race setting tool.

how can a shop not have a 1 1/8" race setting tool??? what the hell do they use?

ive used the PVC methodfor years with no issue. it takes couple more whacks from the mallet to get it seated, but it still works fine.

 

[jimmydean]

FYI: PVC pipe doesn't work well as a crown race setting tool.

You need a better hammer.

 

[mullet_dew]

I buy from my LBS for my reasons
they are all cool guys, no dicks
i get a discount for being a long time customer
i get quick service
they have pretty fair pricing
They sponsor 2 trail days each year, in addition to donating an excavator for a month to build a pimp jump trail last year
also sponsor several race teams

That being said I still buy some stuff online, a ridiculous deal is hard to pass up. (Hello mint 2009 Lryic for less than $200 on ebay)
If they were dicks that price gouged I'd buy online, but they have earned my business.

 

[dante]

I think that one of the trends I'm seeing is towards "service only" LBS's.

Smaller "shops" that only keep the tiny-bits in stock that you might need to replace in order to make tomorrow's group ride... things like rotors, brake pads, chains, & tubes.... but these stores are HEAVY on the service side of things. Things like suspension re-builds, complete bike overhauls, brake bleeds, Headsets etc.

The advantage of doing this is that they be in a smaller Sq-footage unit, they don't need to be in the high-traffic retail locations (most are in more bargain commercial/industrial spaces) and they don't have a ton of $$ tied up in inventory.

Sounds good to me. Avoid the hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in inventory, avoid the interest payments on those inventory dollars, and avoid the stress of having to sell product before your payment terms run out? All while focusing on the ONE thing that customers absolutely can't get over the web, which is service. Nothing worse than walking into a shop and seeing 5+ year old models of bikes with price tags on them that matched the MSRP...

 

[Silver]

Iron Horse?

That's not what I was thinking of, since they clearly were not a going concern and the owners decided to loot it for all it was worth.

 

[splat]

You need a Bigger hammer.

fixed

 

[Bigdroptoflat]

See http://www.antichainreaction.com

The local shop vs. the online retailer is just a downward spiral and it's sad.

Support your local shops and they will support you. Bring a part into my bike shop that you bought online and i will charge you out of your ass to install it. Buy it from me and i will probably do it for free. There are alot of benefits to buying locally and supporting your local shops including their ability to stay in business and continue to contribute to the growth of the sport that you love

That being said, and having experience on both ends as a consumer and a shop manager, a little support and respect goes a long way.

 

[jdcamb]

You're all unknowingly involved in a vast criminal enterprise who's prime benefactors are terrorists. When you buy parts online you say yes to the terrorists. Just so you know...

 

[fr-kye]

online retailers are doing both. they are making competition for everyones LBS, but they are also buying in large quantities from major companies like fox, deity, trek, shimano, maxxis etc.. so it is helping the companies but hurting your LBS

 

[binary visions]

Support your local shops and they will support you

It's a nice sentiment. Doesn't translate to a lot of shops, though.

 

[TheMontashu]

Can you recommend an online retailer that can put on my tire for me?

Wrench science, they are right across the bridge

 

[IH8Rice]

See http://www.antichainreaction.com

see post #6

 

[Bigdroptoflat]

It's a nice sentiment. Doesn't translate to a lot of shops, though.

I think that over the years shops have catered to the "hybrid and family" market because that's what keeps them in business, not the high end user that's only going to buy one part and spend 30 minutes asking questions, and probably buy it online anyways

I deal with this every day getting asked questions like "why don't you have this xtr shifter in stock" and when i quote people a shimano suggested msrp on something like that they act like they are appalled. Bottom line is retailers cannot afford to offer product for the price that these online clearinghouses can. what they can offer is advice, and service shops that can help you out.

Like i said, it's sadly a downward spiral and until shops are better able to compete on price with online retailers, good shops with good stock and a friendly attitude towards the person that represents a miniscule percentage of their profit are going to be few and far between

 

[Bigdroptoflat]

online retailers are doing both. they are making competition for everyones LBS, but they are also buying in large quantities from major companies like fox, deity, trek, shimano, maxxis etc.. so it is helping the companies but hurting your LBS

Trek is actually one of the companies that works hard to support local shops thankfully, and does not give in to gray marketing of many on-line retailers.

Anyways, Bottom line...

No LBS, No Bicycle Industry

 

[loco-gringo]

It's sad that sometimes I can buy online for less, and I am the shop.

Relationships are funny. You can't please everyone. We run a short staff and we can't always just hang out and talk. I tripled our business a couple of years back and I am pretty busy now.

Wumpus will likely tell you I don't do anything, and would mostly be right, but I feel busy.

He is also pretty impartial to it all, having only done this for 6 months, but he even sees how stupid Internet stuff is. It isn't all, but parts that are less online than they are at distributors is just dumb. I'm not going to rant, but I appreciate most of my customers. I will tell you, don't constantly buy online and then show up on Friday evening needing online purchased parts installed. You will miss a nice weekend's riding.

 

[woodsguy]

How many specialty tv and stereo shops are left?

 

[sanjuro]

Wrench science, they are right across the bridge

Never heard of them.

I guess I'll go to REI instead.

 

[sundaydoug]

how can a shop not have a 1 1/8" race setting tool??? what the hell do they use?

ive used the PVC methodfor years with no issue. it takes couple more whacks from the mallet to get it seated, but it still works fine.

I'm sure they had one, just not one to sell. I think that the PVC pipe might be a little too long. I'll cut it down, eat some spinach, and see what happens.

 

[MMike]

they are all cool guys, no dicks
.

Egad!! Are they part of a cult or something?? And how did you find out? Do they advertise it? Or is the LBS some sort of front to recruit unsuspecting young men??

 

[Jim Mac]

IMO, its not the e-tailer's fault entirely.
the consumer electronics industry suffered greatly from the internet whoring out the prices of products (the Koreans are also to blame, but thats another story.)
the prices obviously came from the manufacturer who cut deals on said products at the low prices.

it took many years before manufacturers got the balls to stand up to the e-tailers (or retailers w/ a internet biz) and tell them that a minimum retail price must be maintained on the products to protect other dealers and the industry in general. many bitched and moaned but in the end, pricing was cleaned up on the internet to the point that everyone could and still was making money.

my old company had a rule that any of our products could not be listed for no more than 20% off of M.A.P. pricing for our "normal" line (our specialty line could not be advertised less than M.A.P.). once all of our dealers were on board, there wasnt a issue with e-tailers trying to drop their pants on the price just to get the sale from another site.

True - it's larger than "bikes". This reminds me of the pricing thread over in DH about frames made in the US vs. overseas. bikes are just a tiny, tiny subset of what's happening in our economy.

For LBS's to survive, they have to adapt their strategies to something maybe more akin to specializing in service only. It follows suit anyway - markup on bikes sales are fairly low in my experience, but there is $$ to be made in labor charges.

 

[Droptopchevy]

Having worked for 3 ends of the spectrum, I'll have to say the online bike business is ruining the bicycle industry.

From the bicycle company end, the brand is being sold online for less than any LBS can compete with and the LBS can no longer compete and chooses to not carry that brand. The name brand loses value, but you are able to move product quicker without worrying about it sitting it your own warehouse.

From the online store end, you try to provide the best service over the phone or via e-mail, but the customer becomes the final decision maker in choosing what size bike and what components will work properly with their bicycle. In some cases the customer will void the warranty on the bicycle they purchase online by trying to assemble it themselves.

From the LBS end, you perceive the online store to be ruining your business because customers no longer want to make any special orders because they can buy it online and have it shipped directly to their house for less in a shorter period of time. The online store is more efficient and is able to buy items in bulk from the supplier, therefore getting a lower price than the LBS.

I think that's about it. Even though I currently work at a LBS I still buy online because just like everyone else I can get it online for cheaper and usually quicker too. In some cases the distributor that I use will not have an item in stock and it would have to be purchased online.

 

[IH8Rice]

How many specialty tv and stereo shops are left?

less and less because it goes back to my original post.
i had a dealer base of 70 dealers when i first started. when i left 5 years later, i had maybe 20

I'm sure they had one, just not one to sell. I think that the PVC pipe might be a little too long. I'll cut it down, eat some spinach, and see what happens.

yeah, most shops wouldnt carry something like that to sell. i woulda just bit the bullet at the 3rd shop i went to and had them hammer it on.

 

[SylentK]

So what is the future of the industry then? I'll BS a little...

It's no doubt that the ma/pop/IBD may have to go the way of the Service Only model. There have been books/articles predicting that America itself will go the way of the Service Only model as not only production but engineering moves to Asia. Kinda far fetched, but I guess anything's possible.

If that holds true, then what we will have left is only the deep pocket shops and well leveraged franchises (CRC, Performance, etc.) that can afford to pay up front for all their merchandise from manufacturers directly and sell them at very low margins. This cuts out the distributor/reseller model completely. Is that a good thing? Is your friend a rep? Not anymore...

Also in the mix would be those "vapor ware" on-line e-tailers who don't need to actually stock parts, they just source it. But without the leverage, buying power and deep pockets of the above they would need to operate pretty lean. Which would make it hard to do good marketing and provide proper customer service. Making the vapor ware model difficult to succeed.

Some of us are privy to "bro-deals" and "sponsorships" that give us pretty decent discounts. I would assume under the new world that now everyone would get these same deals. Great, everything is cheap!

There is some huge speculation going on here, obviously. So what about downsides to "everything is cheap?"

Would it be harder for the manufacturers to get feedback? Supposedly that's a benefit of reps and the distributor model. Quality goes down? No time to test properly or take the time to "do it right" as margins are thin. Innovation is stifled? As only large companies can afford to produce anything cost effective. Everything is on a 75 day cycle as it gets shipped from China? IDK.

Wow, the BS is starting to stack up pretty high....

 

[woodsguy]

How about combining the two. What if REI bought Pricepoint, or Jenson, etc. and put all their deals on the REI site AND in their stores. With their 100+ stores nationwide they would be able to move product around to where it is selling the best. They could use the stores as warehouses shipping from whatever store has the product in stock. This would give them stores packed with product at great prices, knowledgeable sales reps ready to help, and a full service shop. Like they already offer, the customer would be able to have their order shipped to a store for free. Plus, they would be able to return it at a store if need be.

Plus, imagine the deals at their garage sales!

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

My yearly REI dividend would likely become a 4-digit figure every year.

 

[jdcamb]

They ruin everything. Someday shortly the bike mines will run out of bike ore. Then you'll see.

Once when I was 10, during my birthday party. An online retailer, stuck his finger in my cake. We all got Conjunctivitis. It was the worst birthday party ever! I have hated them ever since...

 

[Pegboy]

Binary: Where is this shop you speak of in NH?
The issue I have, not necessarily an issue, is that I have more knowledge on the products that I am interested in than the employee. I don't walk into a shop with a bunch of cash and a sell me something attitude. I usually do my research and know more than what is printed in the products catalog (which seems to be the extent of most LBS highschooler employees).

That being said, I mostly buy DH related stuff and most shops in the North East carry little to no stock...not even a descent tire selection. Generally, I just don't need their service so why should I pay extra for it? I actually wonder if they even need or want a customer like myself. Meaning, they probably make more profit on the lower end bikes and have a better chance of moving on floor stock with a less educated, or opinionated, customer.

I did buy a new AM/trailbike last year from my LBS and even that was a hassle. I knew exactly what I wanted (which they did not have in stock=special order), but the sales guy did everything he could to convince me that the bike I wanted was not the bike for me and that I should buy the "better" one off his floor. I left and ordered from a different shop who proceeded to botch the billing by charging full price to my debit card instead of the 50% I wanted to put down (overdraft charges due to the fact that I needed to transfer funds from savings to checking). But hey, they gave me 50% off on some lock on grips (insert sarcastic tone).

I think the shops will get by fine on the average customer who will throw $150 into his $400 bike for new tubes and a tune. That and the guys just looking to buy a bike(Employee:"what are you looking for?"-Customer: "a mountain bike.").

Finally, even if the shop would match prices, it's just so much easier to have ordered everything I need, have it delivered in less than a week, in the time that it took to write this crappy oppinion.

 

[binary visions]

Pegboy; southwest NH. It's in Keene - Andy's Cycles.

I don't really know what his DH stock is like now, he used to carry a fair selection of tires and parts, and some FR bikes, but this last visit was looking for a road bike and it was hurried enough that I didn't even make it downstairs to look at his DH/FR stock.

 

[IH8Rice]

Pegboy; southwest NH. It's in Keene - Andy's Cycles.

holy crap that shop name brings back memories of living in the area

 

[golgiaparatus]

We have a new shop in town... all their prices are very competitive with the online guys, sometimes better... its a MTB specific shop too .

Example: Avid Elixr R
New shop: $130
BikeMan: $140
Other local shop: $180

I know the prices because I just was looking for new brakes 2 weeks ago. Somehow this new shop has found a way to compete... why cant other local shops do this? In a year I bet they will have taken 90% of the MTB business away from everyone else. Hell, at the races I already see more of their jerseys than any other team by far.

 

[daisycutter]

They ruin everything. Someday shortly the bike mines will run out of bike ore. Then you'll see.

Once when I was 10, during my birthday party. An online retailer, stuck his finger in my cake. We all got Conjunctivitis. It was the worst birthday party ever! I have hated them ever since...

Do you ever get tired of writing this drivel on everyones threads?

 

[IH8Rice]

why cant other local shops do this?

because they want to stay in business longer than a year. shops working on slim margins that online stores work on, will not stay in business long

 

[Hunter]

I think that one of the trends I'm seeing is towards "service only" LBS's.

Smaller "shops" that only keep the tiny-bits in stock that you might need to replace in order to make tomorrow's group ride... things like rotors, brake pads, chains, & tubes.... but these stores are HEAVY on the service side of things. Things like suspension re-builds, complete bike overhauls, brake bleeds, Headsets etc.

The advantage of doing this is that they be in a smaller Sq-footage unit, they don't need to be in the high-traffic retail locations (most are in more bargain commercial/industrial spaces) and they don't have a ton of $$ tied up in inventory....

This is interesting. So many of our LBS' have a bunch of odd-name-brand inventory, and piles of it that sit around for years and collect dust with their high price tags. 90% of the time I have to order what I want, since no one local carries it (yes, I know you can order it, but so can I, cheaper, and have it shipped to my door). I generally only go to them for small parts that I need immediately. I would be much more interested in a shop that organized trail work days & group rides, carried small parts, and did a quick turnaround on repairs.

 

[golgiaparatus]

because they want to stay in business longer than a year. shops working on slim margins that online stores work on, will not stay in business long

They are just over a year old and they just expanded into the building next to theirs... they look to be doing quite well. Anyway... time will tell I guess.

In the meantime, they've got my business.

 

[IH8Rice]

well low margins doesnt help with large overhead

 

[golgiaparatus]

markup on bikes sales are fairly low in my experience

I've seen what the Trek store pays for their Superflys before they put them on the floor for $5k. There is a ton of profit. Maybe not a ton for parts like a derailer or handlebars... but on actual bikes... there is a good deal of profit.

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

Parts.
Distributers are not supossed to sell retail & only to dealers. Unless dealers go straight to the manufacturer to buy bulk to get a discount to match online sellers it's hard to make anything.I'm guessing the online sellers are getting distributer pricing & selling retail.
Basically whoever has the deepest pockets wins usually.

I always check a LBS first for parts,but rarly do they have anything "in stock".If they do it might not fit your budget.

To answer the original question. "Progressing the sport overall i think but hurting LBS parts only sales.