I don't imply anything. Here it is in big, bold letters.Seriously, you imply that George bush is stupid, I mean, come on, do you actually read your own posts?
George Bush is an idiot.
Blackwater License Revoked
- Thread starter RenegadeRick
- Start date
George Bush is an idiot.
It's what my handlers sleep-taught me to do as a beta plus. I'm doubleplus good at it.Fair enough.
No use arguing with you anyway, you have this depressing ability to bring logic and common sense to the table so it's no fun at all.
(Huxley and Orwell in the same sentence. Ain't I awesome and all?)
Well if shooting holes in kids doesn't cause at least momentary introspection I don't know what would. I'm sorry to be shocked that some people here can so casually mention killing innocent people regardless of circumstances. I'll be sure to toughen up in future.
I'm more impressed with the "callously cold way" you can derive tone and feeling from text and shove it in the face of someone who is sharing a horrible experience with you. I do not think he was bragging or being insensitive, but merely saying walk in their shoes because unfortunatley he wore the same pair. Since he is not a salesman, his delivery is simple, true and honest- you can not blame him for that since he did not insinuate anyone deserved it- that would be callous.
Original post that I asked about;
I asked for a bit of clarification of this. Seems to me that "not" should be replaced by "only", as I read again I see what he means but no points for style. Still seems cold to me. As has already been established ymmv.
Mike, I'm having a hard time reconciling R00's observations with yours on oversight and control of Blackwater. Is he misperceiving this, confusing companies, or is it possible that Blackwater employees behave differently under direct observation than not?
I'd agree that the way it's written is extremely dismissive. With the "well hell" and "not" there's really only one way to read it as a stand-alone comment. R00s other comments point to a pretty thoughtful guy though, so I think it's safe to assume it's just poorly expressed.
I am referring to Contractors in general. Blackwater , may be the biggest company over here, but they sure as heck aren’t the only ones. I just don’t trust ‘em, that’s all. But that is my personal opinion from having worked and am working in the same area as them. But they are here to stay, so no use in arguing.
Interestingly enough, many historians, when asked when the decline of the Roman Empire started, answer when the Roman Army started to, for lack of a better term, “Contract out.”
Adios Pax Americana.
Oh, and ohio, I am guessing that "R00" is me. In which case, thank you for the compliment, but I didn't make the comment that valve bouncer was referring too.
As for my personal experiences with this war, my actions and what happened to innocent people, those are thoughts, feelings and memories I will keep to myself. I never did anything illegal or morally reprehensible, but some things you see, things that no one should have to see, you just feel guilty, like its your fault somehow, but you know its not.
And it is something that I will never be able to let go of.
And in the words of Forrest Gump, ‘And that’s all I have to say about that.”
Interestingly enough, many historians, when asked when the decline of the Roman Empire started, answer when the Roman Army started to, for lack of a better term, “Contract out.”
Adios Pax Americana.
Oh, and ohio, I am guessing that "R00" is me. In which case, thank you for the compliment, but I didn't make the comment that valve bouncer was referring too.
As for my personal experiences with this war, my actions and what happened to innocent people, those are thoughts, feelings and memories I will keep to myself. I never did anything illegal or morally reprehensible, but some things you see, things that no one should have to see, you just feel guilty, like its your fault somehow, but you know its not.
And it is something that I will never be able to let go of.
And in the words of Forrest Gump, ‘And that’s all I have to say about that.”
Your shortsightedness makes the world a dangerous place for everyone. You must be proud.
Well put, except for the arguing bit. This is a place for arguing. It says on the door.
If you chose to serve in such a role as we have been discussing in Iraq with foreknowledge of the situation there, I don't have much respect for you, put it like that.
None of us here anyway.
Me too.
I agree, I think his posts are excellent and it was actually "gonefirefightin's" post that I took issue with.
Well said.
Well, like I said from the outset, I'm discussing the Blackwater employees under the WPPS contract who protect State Department diplomats. Everything I've said about that is 100% accurate, and they're the guys who supposedly preciptated the incident in question here.
However, I don't have direct knowledge of the situation in every place at all times...in fact, quite the opposite, like all of us.
You do realize that he took an IED to the face?....style points are probably not his biggest worry...
saw this being fired at a blackwater firing range recently:
Got Shotgun?
Got Shotgun?
RE: loss of civilian life.
Wouldn't a sane person get the heck out of dodge when two or three opposing forces start shooting and blowing each other up? I know I sure as heck would. If one side is attacking another and their civilian shields are staying around doesn't that imply that the civilians really aren't all that innocent? So what gives?
Just a thought here. I'm not a military guy and don't pretend to be one on teh internets.
Wouldn't a sane person get the heck out of dodge when two or three opposing forces start shooting and blowing each other up? I know I sure as heck would. If one side is attacking another and their civilian shields are staying around doesn't that imply that the civilians really aren't all that innocent? So what gives?
Just a thought here. I'm not a military guy and don't pretend to be one on teh internets.
Any sane person would head the opposite way when the bullets start to fly, unfortunately it is never that simple. You have to understand the dynamic over here. While Western people see an Iraqi, as an Iraqi, they see themselves as Sunni, Shia, Kurd, Christian, Syriac, Assyriac, Persian, and then there are myriad tribes and allegiances. Don't forget to throw Al Queada and other terrorist organizations into the mix. Most of these “groups” do not like each other, and alliances and truces are constantly changing. Add to the fact that each Iraqi household can have 1x AK-47, plus whatever weapons they may possess and have you a recipe for disaster.
When someone gets shot at by someone else, whether it is Blackwater, the US Military, another tribe, etc, Iraqis respond in two ways. A lot will run away and try and protect their families and/or homes (Family and Tribe are VERY important to them) and a few will grab their weapons to try and protect the honor of their family, tribe, religion, etc.
It isn’t necessary being guilty in my mind. Iraqis aren’t stupid, and they love their families as much as we do. It is a matter of holding certain principals above everything, to include putting your life on the line.
Would you pick up a gun if someone was shooting at your mother?
(This is obviously simplifying of one of the most complex environments the United States has operated in, but I hope my point isn’t lost)
When someone gets shot at by someone else, whether it is Blackwater, the US Military, another tribe, etc, Iraqis respond in two ways. A lot will run away and try and protect their families and/or homes (Family and Tribe are VERY important to them) and a few will grab their weapons to try and protect the honor of their family, tribe, religion, etc.
It isn’t necessary being guilty in my mind. Iraqis aren’t stupid, and they love their families as much as we do. It is a matter of holding certain principals above everything, to include putting your life on the line.
Would you pick up a gun if someone was shooting at your mother?
(This is obviously simplifying of one of the most complex environments the United States has operated in, but I hope my point isn’t lost)
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/ats-ap_top10sep21,0,7461088.story?coll=la-ap-topnews-headlines
Feds Target Blackwater in Weapons Probe
By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer
8:13 PM PDT, September 21, 2007
WASHINGTON -- Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.
The U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh, N.C., is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. Blackwater is based in Moyock, N.C.
A spokeswoman for Blackwater did not return calls seeking comment Friday. The U.S. attorney for the eastern district of North Carolina, George Holding, declined to comment, as did Pentagon and State Department spokesmen.
Officials with knowledge of the case said it is active, although at an early stage. They spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter, which has heightened since 11 Iraqis were killed Sunday in a shooting involving Blackwater contractors protecting a U.S. diplomatic convoy in Baghdad.
The officials could not say whether the investigation would result in indictments, how many Blackwater employees are involved or if the company itself, which has won hundreds of millions of dollars in government security contracts since the 2003 invasion of Iraq, is under scrutiny.
In Saturday's editions, The News & Observer of Raleigh reported that two former Blackwater employees -- Kenneth Wayne Cashwell of Virginia Beach, Va., and William Ellsworth "Max" Grumiaux of Clemmons, N.C. -- are cooperating with federal investigators.
Cashwell and Grumiaux pleaded guilty in early 2007 to possession of stolen firearms that had been shipped in interstate or foreign commerce, and aided and abetted another in doing so, according to court papers viewed by The Associated Press. In their plea agreements, which call for a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine, the men agreed to testify in any future proceedings.
Calls to defense attorneys were not immediately returned Friday evening, and calls to the telephone listings for both men also were not returned.
The News & Observer, citing unidentified sources, reported that the probe was looking at whether Blackwater had shipped unlicensed automatic weapons and military goods to Iraq without a license.
The paper's report that the company itself was under investigation could not be confirmed by the AP.
Meanwhile, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice ordered a review of security practices for U.S. diplomats in Iraq following a deadly incident involving Blackwater USA guards protecting an embassy convoy.
Rice's announcement came as the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad resumed limited diplomatic convoys under the protection of Blackwater outside the heavily fortified Green Zone after a suspension because of the weekend incident in that city.
In the United States, officials in Washington said the smuggling investigation grew from internal Pentagon and State Department inquiries into U.S. weapons that had gone missing in Iraq. It gained steam after Turkish authorities protested to the U.S. in July that they had seized American arms from the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, rebels.
The Turks provided serial numbers of the weapons to U.S. investigators, said a Turkish official.
The Pentagon said in late July it was looking into the Turkish complaints and a U.S. official said FBI agents had traveled to Turkey in recent months to look into cases of missing U.S. weapons in Iraq.
Investigators are determining whether the alleged Blackwater weapons match those taken from the PKK.
It was not clear if Blackwater employees suspected of selling to the black market knew the weapons they allegedly sold to middlemen might wind up with the PKK. If they did, possible charges against them could be more serious than theft or illegal weapons sales, officials said.
The PKK, which is fighting for an independent Kurdistan, is banned in Turkey, which has a restive Kurdish population and is considered a "foreign terrorist organization" by the State Department. That designation bars U.S. citizens or those in U.S. jurisdictions from supporting the group in any way.
The North Carolina investigation was first brought to light by State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard, who mentioned it, perhaps inadvertently, this week while denying he had improperly blocked fraud and corruption probes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Krongard was accused in a letter by Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, of politically motivated malfeasance, including refusing to cooperate with an investigation into alleged weapons smuggling by a large, unidentified State Department contractor.
In response, Krongard said in a written statement that he "made one of my best investigators available to help Assistant U.S. Attorneys in North Carolina in their investigation into alleged smuggling of weapons into Iraq by a contractor."
His statement went further than Waxman's letter because it identified the state in which the investigation was taking place. Blackwater is the biggest of the State Department's three private security contractors.
The other two, Dyncorp and Triple Canopy, are based in Washington's northern Virginias suburbs, outside the jurisdiction of the North Carolina's attorneys.
* __
Associated Press writers Mike Baker in Raleigh and Desmond Butler and Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington contributed to this report.
Feds Target Blackwater in Weapons Probe
By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer
8:13 PM PDT, September 21, 2007
WASHINGTON -- Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.
The U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh, N.C., is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. Blackwater is based in Moyock, N.C.
A spokeswoman for Blackwater did not return calls seeking comment Friday. The U.S. attorney for the eastern district of North Carolina, George Holding, declined to comment, as did Pentagon and State Department spokesmen.
Officials with knowledge of the case said it is active, although at an early stage. They spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter, which has heightened since 11 Iraqis were killed Sunday in a shooting involving Blackwater contractors protecting a U.S. diplomatic convoy in Baghdad.
The officials could not say whether the investigation would result in indictments, how many Blackwater employees are involved or if the company itself, which has won hundreds of millions of dollars in government security contracts since the 2003 invasion of Iraq, is under scrutiny.
In Saturday's editions, The News & Observer of Raleigh reported that two former Blackwater employees -- Kenneth Wayne Cashwell of Virginia Beach, Va., and William Ellsworth "Max" Grumiaux of Clemmons, N.C. -- are cooperating with federal investigators.
Cashwell and Grumiaux pleaded guilty in early 2007 to possession of stolen firearms that had been shipped in interstate or foreign commerce, and aided and abetted another in doing so, according to court papers viewed by The Associated Press. In their plea agreements, which call for a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine, the men agreed to testify in any future proceedings.
Calls to defense attorneys were not immediately returned Friday evening, and calls to the telephone listings for both men also were not returned.
The News & Observer, citing unidentified sources, reported that the probe was looking at whether Blackwater had shipped unlicensed automatic weapons and military goods to Iraq without a license.
The paper's report that the company itself was under investigation could not be confirmed by the AP.
Meanwhile, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice ordered a review of security practices for U.S. diplomats in Iraq following a deadly incident involving Blackwater USA guards protecting an embassy convoy.
Rice's announcement came as the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad resumed limited diplomatic convoys under the protection of Blackwater outside the heavily fortified Green Zone after a suspension because of the weekend incident in that city.
In the United States, officials in Washington said the smuggling investigation grew from internal Pentagon and State Department inquiries into U.S. weapons that had gone missing in Iraq. It gained steam after Turkish authorities protested to the U.S. in July that they had seized American arms from the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, rebels.
The Turks provided serial numbers of the weapons to U.S. investigators, said a Turkish official.
The Pentagon said in late July it was looking into the Turkish complaints and a U.S. official said FBI agents had traveled to Turkey in recent months to look into cases of missing U.S. weapons in Iraq.
Investigators are determining whether the alleged Blackwater weapons match those taken from the PKK.
It was not clear if Blackwater employees suspected of selling to the black market knew the weapons they allegedly sold to middlemen might wind up with the PKK. If they did, possible charges against them could be more serious than theft or illegal weapons sales, officials said.
The PKK, which is fighting for an independent Kurdistan, is banned in Turkey, which has a restive Kurdish population and is considered a "foreign terrorist organization" by the State Department. That designation bars U.S. citizens or those in U.S. jurisdictions from supporting the group in any way.
The North Carolina investigation was first brought to light by State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard, who mentioned it, perhaps inadvertently, this week while denying he had improperly blocked fraud and corruption probes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Krongard was accused in a letter by Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, of politically motivated malfeasance, including refusing to cooperate with an investigation into alleged weapons smuggling by a large, unidentified State Department contractor.
In response, Krongard said in a written statement that he "made one of my best investigators available to help Assistant U.S. Attorneys in North Carolina in their investigation into alleged smuggling of weapons into Iraq by a contractor."
His statement went further than Waxman's letter because it identified the state in which the investigation was taking place. Blackwater is the biggest of the State Department's three private security contractors.
The other two, Dyncorp and Triple Canopy, are based in Washington's northern Virginias suburbs, outside the jurisdiction of the North Carolina's attorneys.
* __
Associated Press writers Mike Baker in Raleigh and Desmond Butler and Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington contributed to this report.
Blackwater is back in the saddle again...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/09/22/MNA7SBEM4.DTL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/09/22/MNA7SBEM4.DTL
http://www.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=66783
That's certainly not looking good press-wise. Apparently the Iraqi MoI is claiming it has a video of the incident itself, but if so, I don't see why it hasn't been disclosed yet...
That's certainly not looking good press-wise. Apparently the Iraqi MoI is claiming it has a video of the incident itself, but if so, I don't see why it hasn't been disclosed yet...
It would be a great PR move. Let Blackwater deny, and then after they've dug the hole, produce the tape.
Looks like the Iraq Government is going to try and charge them
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/23/blackwater.probe/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/23/blackwater.probe/index.html
A draft congressional report says Blackwater is, quote “A bunch of out of control, crazy, narcissistic cowboys.”
Okay, they didn’t really say that, but when it is reported that:
A) in 80% of the shootings, Blackwater fired first
B) During the last incident, one Blackwater guy drew his weapon on another one who refused to stop shooting people… well you know you have a problem.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/01/blackwater.report/index.html
Way to win the hearts and minds fellas.
BTW, “Blackwater” is the name for all the scum water from the showers and sinks that they collect here. They then spray it on the roads to keep the dust down. I have NO IDEA why they decided to call themselves that.
Okay, they didn’t really say that, but when it is reported that:
A) in 80% of the shootings, Blackwater fired first
B) During the last incident, one Blackwater guy drew his weapon on another one who refused to stop shooting people… well you know you have a problem.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/01/blackwater.report/index.html
Way to win the hearts and minds fellas.
BTW, “Blackwater” is the name for all the scum water from the showers and sinks that they collect here. They then spray it on the roads to keep the dust down. I have NO IDEA why they decided to call themselves that.
Wierd. In standard civil engineering vernacular "gray water" is from showers and sinks; "blackwater" is sewage.
RV speak too...
"Burning man fling it on your friends when they're drunk" speak as well
Blackwater is untreated sewage. That's no lie.
Blackwater is untreated sewage. That's no lie.
No idea why they have 'blackwater' and 'graywater' mixed up here...
Hmmmm...
Oh wait, now I know, because most of the people who work on our bases, prepare and serve our food, fix our vehicles, clean the latrines, drive the buses and transport our vehicles and supplies don't speak English! Isn't it great that the American Military can't support itself anymore? I digress....
Blackwater still sucks.
Hmmmm...
Oh wait, now I know, because most of the people who work on our bases, prepare and serve our food, fix our vehicles, clean the latrines, drive the buses and transport our vehicles and supplies don't speak English! Isn't it great that the American Military can't support itself anymore? I digress....
Blackwater still sucks.
Let's call a spade a spade...VBIEDs are one of the favored modes of attack on a motorcade. How do you expect a PSD, contractor or military, to respond to someone driving aggressively and ignoring the large "keep back" signs, pointed weapons, and warning flares fired in their directon? Motorcades are not low-profile. Sucks to have your head up your ass while driving in Iraq...US and other drivers have paid the price, as well.
It's a misnomer to say "fired first" without qualifying why/how, because a VBIED "fires" once, and it utterly destroys the target. You can't really do much else against one than try to ID it (riding low on springs, driving behavior, visual cues from driver--facial expression, sweating, perhaps shaven in preparation for martyrdom...)
However, the contractors also fire at the vehicle's engine block first, if possible, before engaging the driver's compartment. (Note that that's a departure, in the more lenient direction, from most use-of-deadly force criteria as we've discussed in a US law enforcement context...)
I also love the part about Blackwater not sticking around to assess casualties after an engagement. They're a PSD unit! You think they're going to keep their protectee on an attack site while they make sure everything's OK and run an investigation?? They get OFF the X, period. Jeeeesus. It's a war zone, people.
If you're going to use instances of one guy going crazy/doing something wrong as an indictment of an entire organization, well, than the whole military should be indicted, too. In fact, the fact that one contractor will potentially shoot another because the first is psycho seems to speak to the fact that the vast majority are stand-up guys. And I don't know of any other "mercenary" units that use their own money, assets, and lives to help out US servicemen by getting the wounded off the field when US military assets are unavailable. (Blackwater helicopters have done and continue to do this, with the assent of the State Department.)
There is a Blackwater Falls State Park in West Virginia...with a Blackwater river, so perhaps the river runs into North Carolina near Myock or something? Or perhaps they were just anticipating being slagged on the Internet and wanted to make it more fun.
(Again, none of this is meant to say that any of this should be happening in Iraq at all...bad idea to be here in the first place, IMHO. I think we should maybe start enforcing the Congressional authority over declaring war...perhaps an amendment severly and explicitly restricting executive authority to use troops in absence of a declaration of war, perhaps to the occasion of invasion of the US only?)
There was once a push to get a new Amendment added to the Constitution.
It would stipulate that if the United States wanted to go to war with another country, it would be put to a vote, “Yes” or “No.” Those who answered yes would have to enlist in the military. We’d never go to war again. Even the WW II military was a draft military. It wasn’t all-volunteer. And technically, WW II was the last time we went to war, since it was the last time we actually declared it and put the entire country on a war-footing.
I hear your points MikeD. My issue with Blackwater, DynCorps, Triple-Canopy, etc is they aren’t responsible to anyone and are under no real oversight. I will absolutely not argue that the military is perfect and we don’t do this stuff. But I would say a good part of the time, Soldiers who do wrong are prosecuted to some extent (Again, not a perfect world.) But no contactor has been prosecuted for crimes committed over here and that bothers me. The only way you win a counter-insurgency is to convince to local population you are better than ‘X Group’. No matter if you are a Soldier, contactor, etc, you represent America and the Iraqis all see us the same (Well, they actually dislike Blackwater as much as the military does.)
I also think you are right about the river. I think I read that somewhere.
It would stipulate that if the United States wanted to go to war with another country, it would be put to a vote, “Yes” or “No.” Those who answered yes would have to enlist in the military. We’d never go to war again. Even the WW II military was a draft military. It wasn’t all-volunteer. And technically, WW II was the last time we went to war, since it was the last time we actually declared it and put the entire country on a war-footing.
I hear your points MikeD. My issue with Blackwater, DynCorps, Triple-Canopy, etc is they aren’t responsible to anyone and are under no real oversight. I will absolutely not argue that the military is perfect and we don’t do this stuff. But I would say a good part of the time, Soldiers who do wrong are prosecuted to some extent (Again, not a perfect world.) But no contactor has been prosecuted for crimes committed over here and that bothers me. The only way you win a counter-insurgency is to convince to local population you are better than ‘X Group’. No matter if you are a Soldier, contactor, etc, you represent America and the Iraqis all see us the same (Well, they actually dislike Blackwater as much as the military does.)
I also think you are right about the river. I think I read that somewhere.
Very polished, I couldn't even see Dick Cheney's lips move. It was only the part about the extract of Iraqi whore babies restoring his vitality that gave the game away.
You freaking hippies and RV users need to eat some fiber or something.
He's a Navy SEAL, what would you expect?
I'm still not a fan of the organization just because I think the company is WAY overpaid compared to what they pay the guys that actually do the work. But I don't blame the guy for making a few billion off a great idea either.
The have been accused.
They can't be tried etc due to US government interference.
Do they always use US army SOP's (some of which are iffy in regards to the geneva convention which is pretty much the bench mark in regard to conduct)?
There does not appear to be any CLEAR accountablity for their operations for a private organization funded by (a lot of) public money.
Certainly Marin's eyewitness account's which are so wildly at odd's with your pronouncements are cause for some concern, enough I feel that there should be some form of independent Court of Enquiry into it to sort out what is actually going on. Untill there is something like that I'd have to say file under "dodgy dealings".
lthumbsdown:All I know is, when I used to Patrol in Mosul and when we patrol here, if we saw a line of up-armored SUVs coming at you, we either A) went a different way or B) got real low in our hatches. Do I know if they were Blackwater? Nope, we just let them be and stayed the heck away from them. Could have been Triple-Canopy, DynCorps, etc.
They are notorious for the use of the same tactic the Iraqi Army uses… we call it the “Death Blossom.” That is when a unit receives small arms fire (SAF), it responds by shooting in a 360 degree blaze of lead. Not the best hearts-and-minds tactic.
In all fairness, this was a tactic used by the Army… in 2003-2004, but since then we have gone to great pains to not do that, so much so that when you can’t Positively ID (PID) the source of the fire, you don’t shoot at all. And that is one of the toughest things to do.
The Military does make mistakes, and we have been responsible for some horrible and heinous things. War is ****ty and probably the worst thing people can do it each other, but it seems to be a necessary part of human nature. Does that excuse the atrocities we have done over here? No, and I hope those responsible burn in hell because I wear “U.S. Army” and the American Flag on my uniform and their actions directly reflect on me. It is hard to look at myself in the mirror and feel proud after reading about Abu Ghuraib or the 101st kid who raped the girl and murdered her family. Its an embarrassment to all of us. As is this recent Blackwater fiasco.
And that is the crux of my argument. We, the Army, are responsible to the American people and everything we do is viewed through a microscope (especially after Abu Ghuraib). The contactors have not been under the oversight of anyone, and in 2006 $600,000 of your taxpayers money went to their operations. Let them do what they do, because the Army doesn’t have enough people to do what we are doing now, let alone pick up their PSD detail, but put them under strict oversight so everyone is happy, Iraqis, the military and the American people.
They are notorious for the use of the same tactic the Iraqi Army uses… we call it the “Death Blossom.” That is when a unit receives small arms fire (SAF), it responds by shooting in a 360 degree blaze of lead. Not the best hearts-and-minds tactic.
In all fairness, this was a tactic used by the Army… in 2003-2004, but since then we have gone to great pains to not do that, so much so that when you can’t Positively ID (PID) the source of the fire, you don’t shoot at all. And that is one of the toughest things to do.
The Military does make mistakes, and we have been responsible for some horrible and heinous things. War is ****ty and probably the worst thing people can do it each other, but it seems to be a necessary part of human nature. Does that excuse the atrocities we have done over here? No, and I hope those responsible burn in hell because I wear “U.S. Army” and the American Flag on my uniform and their actions directly reflect on me. It is hard to look at myself in the mirror and feel proud after reading about Abu Ghuraib or the 101st kid who raped the girl and murdered her family. Its an embarrassment to all of us. As is this recent Blackwater fiasco.
And that is the crux of my argument. We, the Army, are responsible to the American people and everything we do is viewed through a microscope (especially after Abu Ghuraib). The contactors have not been under the oversight of anyone, and in 2006 $600,000 of your taxpayers money went to their operations. Let them do what they do, because the Army doesn’t have enough people to do what we are doing now, let alone pick up their PSD detail, but put them under strict oversight so everyone is happy, Iraqis, the military and the American people.
I think you're confused about my point to MR. I was discussing military PSDs (staffed by guys in uniform, who follow the same procedures as Blackwater), not contractors, to make a point.The have been accused.
They can't be tried etc due to US government interference.
Do they always use US army SOP's (some of which are iffy in regards to the geneva convention which is pretty much the bench mark in regard to conduct)?
There does not appear to be any CLEAR accountablity for their operations for a private organization funded by (a lot of) public money.
Certainly Marin's eyewitness account's which are so wildly at odd's with your pronouncements are cause for some concern, enough I feel that there should be some form of independent Court of Enquiry into it to sort out what is actually going on. Untill there is something like that I'd have to say file under "dodgy dealings".
Isn't the current situation...Congress, the FBI, and everyone else with political hay to make diving in to investigate...enough for you?
Fact is, Blackwater's taking the flak for the teething problems of this industry in Iraq. They may or may not have had issues themselves in the past...as MR points out, just like the Army...but now, they are in fact the only company in a country full of international private PSD contractors (not including static guards like Triple Canopy is providing for the USG) with direct USG oversight and accountability.
There are tons of guys with funny commonwealth accents and histories of fighting in the African jungles who are protecting private business ventures across Iraq...no one seems to be bitching about them and their complete lack of accountability to any government whatsoever, or, if they are, they're venting on Blackwater, which is the current bugbear for most people who dislike the war.