[X3pilot]

We don't have to wait till tomorrow, just till the Asian markets open in another ~8 hours or so....

http://abcnews.go.com/International/standard-poors-anxiety-grows-us-credit-rating-downgrade/story?id=14249747

Here we go...

Futures on the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index expiring next month lost 2.6 percent to 1,166.60 at 7:22 a.m. in Tokyo following a two-week slump that dragged the gauge down 11 percent and erased its 2011 gain. The dollar lost 1 percent versus the Swiss franc and slipped at least 0.3 percent against the yen and Australian and New Zealand dollars. Oil sank 3.2 percent to $84.11 a barrel in electronic trading. Israel’s TA-25 Index plunged the most in almost 11 years today, with a 7 percent loss led by Discount Investment Corp.

The only good in this is the drop in oil, which will hopefully results in a drop at the pump. Despite personal beliefs on cars and carbon, higher gas prices have resulted in decreased consumer spending and when 70% of a nation's GDP depends on consumers going to WalMart and Best Buy, it's a big deal.

 

[Pesqueeb]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Blood in the water.

Middle East shares tumbled, sending Dubai’s index down the most since February, after Standard & Poor’s cut the credit rating of the U.S. for the first time and amid rising concern the global economy is faltering.

Emaar Properties PJSC (EMAAR), developer of the world’s tallest tower, slumped 5.3 percent. Arabtec Holding Co. (ARTC) dropped the most since March after it said second-quarter profit fell 74 percent. The DFM General Index (DFMGI) lost 3.7 percent, the most since Feb. 28, to 1,484.31 at the 2 p.m. close in Dubai. The measure has plunged 12 percent from this year’s high in April, entering a so-called correction. Israel’s TA-25 Index slumped 6 percent, the most since November 2008, at 3:51 p.m. in Tel Aviv.

Course there is always the possibility that markets tanking in Israel and Saudi Arabia have everything to do with the fact we support them both so fully economically.

 

[mandown]

So... I (as an American taxpayer) am actually paying your salary? Go get me some coffee!!!

I also pay taxes, so I also pay my salary. Ahhh, an infinite loop. Oh yea, we paid back the bail out money. I will get you coffee, but just out of the kindness of my heart. One spit or two

And it looks like Israel shat the bed today.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-07/israel-stocks-fall-most-in-11-years-on-concerns-about-global-growth-debt.html

The index plunged 7 percent, the most since October 2000, to 1,074.27 after Standard & Poor’s cut the credit rating of the U.S., one of Israel’s largest trading partners, on Aug. 5. The gauge is down 19.9 percent from the record closing high of 1,341.89 on April 21. The slump left most Israeli-shares traded in New York at a premium relative to their Tel Aviv prices. They had ended last week with the biggest discount on record.

 

[Toshi]

Oh yea, we paid back the bail out money.

It doesn't look to me like all the bailout money is repaid, with $8B outright still owed and 92% of AIG shares still in government possession.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/aig-repays-69-bln-to-us-treasury-2011-03-08

 

[Pesqueeb]

I actually blame mandown for all of this. If he'd spent more time placing his numbers in the right boxes and less on teh and hanging from the ceiling we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

 

[stevew]

so satan is the bacon?

 

[amishmatt]

Satan is my motor.

 

[Pesqueeb]

so satan is the bacon?

Anything as wonderful as Bacon is clearly from the Devil.

 

[Pesqueeb]

-200 points in less than a minute.

 

[dante]

Oh yea, we paid back the bail out money. I will get you coffee, but just out of the kindness of my heart. One spit or two

It doesn't look to me like all the bailout money is repaid, with $8B outright still owed and 92% of AIG shares still in government possession.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/aig-repays-69-bln-to-us-treasury-2011-03-08

Cream, 2 sugars. Thanks.

 

[mandown]

What's $8B between friends?

American International Group Inc. logged profit of $1.84 billion in the second quarter, as the insurer reported a result largely free from the restructuring costs and other extraordinary charges that have plagued the company since its 2008 bailout.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903366504576488294168504376.html

 

[mandown]

Proctor and Gamble is up today. Guess there is a run on Pampers, Fabreze, and Mr. Clean since the fit hit the shan.

 

[dante]

What's $8B between friends?

A Venti Latte a day for the next 5,000+ years?

 

[stevew]

i thought barry had someone from standard/poors on the payroll?

 

[$tinkle]

Satan is my motor.

 

[Andyman_1970]

-200 points in less than a minute.

Yeah who was the Tea Tard(s) that said something to the effect nothing "bad" would happen by running this whole process to the 11.5 hour?

 

[amishmatt]

orly?

Every hotrod needs a motor.

 

[dante]

Yeah who was the Tea Tard(s) that said something to the effect nothing "bad" would happen by running this whole process to the 11.5 hour?

We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process. We also believe that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration agreed to this week falls short of the amount that we believe is necessary to stabilize the general government debt burden by the middle of the decade…. The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America’s governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in the debate over fiscal policy. Despite this year’s wide-ranging debate, in our view, the differences between political parties have proven to be extraordinarily difficult to bridge, and, as we see it, the resulting agreement fell well short of the comprehensive fiscal consolidation program that some proponents had envisaged until quite recently. Republicans and Democrats have only been able to agree to relatively modest savings on discretionary spending while delegating to the Select Committee decisions on more comprehensive measures. It appears that for now, new revenues have dropped down on the menu of policy options. In addition, the plan envisions only minor policy changes on Medicare and little change in other entitlements, the containment of which we and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability

..... And yet the tea baggers *still* are trying to claim that this is "Obama's downgrade". I'm thinking that there are enough dumb people on the right to believe this line, but the real question is going to be is the corporate money still flowing to the Republicans?? I know that I'd be far less likely to write them a check knowing that the market cap of my company just dropped by XX billions of dollars...

 

[dante]

Anyone else find it ironic that the downgrade of US debt is causing a global panic, causing people to turn to..... US debt?

(10y US treasury yield)

edit: "ironic" used as definition #3 in the Random House unabridged dictionary.

 

[$tinkle]

..... And yet the tea baggers *still* are trying to claim that this is "Obama's downgrade". I'm thinking that there are enough dumb people on the right to believe this line, but the real question is going to be is the corporate money still flowing to the Republicans?? I know that I'd be far less likely to write them a check knowing that the market cap of my company just dropped by XX billions of dollars...

intuition tells me that greater debt translates to greater risk, which translates to downgrading of credit rating. of course, i'm projecting personal situations, which i would *hope* be based upon some desire for fiscal responsibility.

i don't see this as a tbagger issue, and to make it one is a distraction from what should be the real debate. you think i *want* to be associated w/ people who use powderhorns on a daily basis preparing for their next field trip to manassas?

 

[dante]

intuition tells me that greater debt translates to greater risk, which translates to downgrading of credit rating. of course, i'm projecting personal situations, which i would *hope* be based upon some desire for fiscal responsibility.

i don't see this as a tbagger issue, and to make it one is a distraction from what should be the real debate. you think i *want* to be associated w/ people who use powderhorns on a daily basis preparing for their next field trip to manassas?

You realize that while "greater debt translates to greater risk", that's not what the S&P stated, right? The S&P specifically downgraded us at this time due to the brinksmanship and political gaming of the debt ceiling limit, initiated solely by the Republicans/Tea Party.

The truth of the matter is that NEITHER side cares about the debt/deficit. If they did you'd hear Democrats talk about cutting spending on social programs, and Republicans about cutting spending on Defense/corporate welfare and raising revenue. The problem is (as pointed out by the S&P) that the Republicans insistence on no new tax revenue (leaving the future of the Bush tax cuts in doubt) combined with the acrimonious atmosphere over a routine debt-ceiling vote (caused by the GOP) leaves the S&P doubting that *any* deal can be reached to substantially reduce the deficit and debt in the coming months/years.

If there had been a clean debt-ceiling vote, we would not have been downgraded at this time. In the future, maybe. But not now, at least according to what the S&P has stated.

 

[Pesqueeb]

S&P just downgraded Fannie and Freddie due to their "reliance on the US government".

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-08/fannie-mae-freddie-mac-ratings-cut-by-s-p-amid-reliance-on-u-s-backing.html

 

[mandown]

Anyone else find it ironic that the downgrade of US debt is causing a global panic, causing people to turn to..... US debt?

(10y US treasury yield)

edit: "ironic" used as definition #3 in the Random House unabridged dictionary.

oh noes! the US might have a hard time paying interest on debt due to cash flow issues, so let's all cash out and make them cough up the bigger underlying principal amount. then they certainly will have cash flow issues.

is the housing-market history already scheduled to be in reruns this season?

 

[dante]

oh noes! the US might have a hard time paying interest on debt due to cash flow issues, so let's all cash out and make them cough up the bigger underlying principal amount. then they certainly will have cash flow issues.

is the housing-market history already scheduled to be in reruns this season?

No, but they're replaying 1937 at 8pm tonight...

 

[Andyman_1970]

The S&P specifically downgraded us at this time due to the brinksmanship and political gaming of the debt ceiling limit, initiated solely by the Republicans/Tea Party.

That was my point/question (and couldn't agree with you more). The week of July 25th some Tea Tard was interveiwed on NPR, and literally said that he didn't care if the US defaulted and that he didn't believe that it would be "that bad" (paraphrase). I'm researching my a$$ off trying to find that quote / interview...........

That was the prevaling mindset of Bachmann, DeMint, Rand Paul and Mike Lee........don't raise the debt limit and just simply cut spending by half overnight.............WTF. It's quite clear these folks have zero grasp on reality.

 

[zdubyadubya]

I love how the organization that rated all the subprime mortgages AAA all of a sudden has a conscience and feels the need to stick their nose out. As far as I'm concerned they are just part of the problem. S&P can just shut up. Their "ratings" really have no validity anymore.

 

[mandown]

No, but they're replaying 1937 at 8pm tonight...

can't wait for the scene with the kneeslider

 

[stoney]

No, but they're replaying 1937 at 8pm tonight...

 

[$tinkle]

You realize that while "greater debt translates to greater risk", that's not what the S&P stated, right? The S&P specifically downgraded us at this time due to the brinksmanship and political gaming of the debt ceiling limit, initiated solely by the Republicans/Tea Party.

so essentially, you take the s&p statement & editorialized it with "they started it", even though in your previous post you state "that's not what the S&P stated"

goose & gander, all i'm sayin'

from politico:

• The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics.
• More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.

so now are you saying this is some flavor of 'tyranny of the minority'? would i have to then resort to the good works done at the behest of the majority?

 

[dante]

Did you seriously not bother to read farther than the first two bullet points to read this?

We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the
growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process.

The GOP turned a normal debt ceiling increase into a political football... As I stated earlier, if the Congress had given BHO a clean debt ceiling increase, we wouldn't be staring at a credit downgrade right now. Maybe at some point in the future, but not now. That's beyond debate, at least according to the actual S&P report.

And this:

The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in the debate over fiscal policy.

Yes, they're concerned about US debt. They're also concerned about the "political brinksmanship" that's endemic to our current Congress.

 

[$tinkle]

Did you seriously not bother to read farther than the first two bullet points to read this?

the whole bleedin' thing, yes

The GOP turned a normal debt ceiling increase into a political football...

since when is $4,000,000,000,000 "normal"? i'm rather troubled to read you could see this mind-numbing figure as something to be blindly accepted as business as usual.

i'm funny in the way that i'm alarmed at our govt's collective fiscal culture. i wouldn't run my home like this with money that *is* mine; why should congress do it money that *isn't* theirs?

 

[dante]

^^^^So.... the 6 debt ceiling votes between 2004 and 2009 were fine, when the debt ceiling was raised from $7.3T to $12T, but suddenly things are different now because Obama wants to raise it another 4T (and to last the 2+ years instead of having this sh!tstorm come up again in another 6mo)? Seriously? The votes between 2004 and 2008 were to raise the debt limit by$4T (more than 50%). I guess that was ok since it was under GWB. Now Obama wants to raise it another $4T since we're in the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, for some reason that's cause for "OMFG, we can't raise the debt ceiling!!!"?

Come on, we have one party who is espousing that we shouldn't have raised the debt ceiling under any conditions, and when the S&P points that out you're still going to be an apologist for them and claim it wasn't their fault?

 

[$tinkle]

^^^^So.... the 6 debt ceiling votes between 2004 and 2009 were fine

nope.
and the higher the ceiling, the higher the timbre of my caterwauling

doesn't matter that there have been increases under bush, clinton, the other bush, etc.

Come on, we have one party who is espousing that we shouldn't have raised the debt ceiling under any conditions

i don't believe that's the case

 

[Andyman_1970]

What about the moral default:
http://blog.sojo.net/2011/08/02/the-moral-default/

It appears that the voice of the faith community was at least heard and made some difference in the outcome of the default debate. We met with the president and Democratic leaders Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, and all of them fought to defend low-income people as we asked them to do. The White House protected low-income entitlement programs from automatic cuts in the “trigger” and successfully defended Medicaid. We also pleaded for low-income people in meetings with Republican Paul Ryan and with the staffs of John Boehner and Mitch McConnell. They told us they agreed with the principle but did not uphold it in their final proposals.

 

[Pesqueeb]

^^^^^^^
Lets face it, all of the "right", and a good portion of the "left", morally defaulted a long time ago.

 

[jonKranked]

palin: “Be wary of the efforts President Obama makes to ‘fix’ the debt problem,” she said. “The more he tries to ‘fix’ things, the worse they get.”

funny, the debt deal that was reached was pretty much everything the republicans wanted...


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/08/palin-on-downgrade-i-told-you-so/#more-170473

 

[$tinkle]

NSFW

 

[ohio]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/08/palin-on-downgrade-i-told-you-so/#more-170473

And that marks the first time a woman has ever pissed on my leg and told me it was raining.

 

[$tinkle]

And that marks the first time a woman has ever pissed on my leg and told me it was raining.

if you need an autographed copy, you'll need to prime her w/ a cuppa joe

 

[ohio]

if you need an autographed copy, you'll need to prime her w/ a cuppa joe

Clever, but Madame Judy didn't actually piss on anyone's leg. She just demanded that no one piss on hers. So she's probably just as angry at Palin as I am.