[gonefirefightin]

Solar

I have reached the point where I am 99.999% sure on the components and scale of my specific solar system.

The heart of the system will revolve around the EG4 18kw all in one unit.

EG4 18KPV Hybrid Inverter | All-In-One Solar Inverter | 18000W PV Input | 12000W Output | 48V 120/240V Split Phase | EG4 18KPV-12LV

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

One of the reasons for using this inverter over the EG4 6000XP is the UL1741SB compliance in my county. The need for this specific UL listing is going to be required by code. Additionally, the amount of PV input is higher in a single 18kPV than 2 of the 6000XPs.

For the array I will most likely go with a pallet of these dudes

14.4kW Pallet - Hyperion 400W Bifacial Solar Panel (Black) | Up to 500W with Bifacial Gain | Full Pallet (36) - 14.4kW Total

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

This array will be capable of producing 14.4kW per peak sun hour and I can simply run 4 strings of 9 panels in series into the 18kPV inverter.

For the Energy storage I will start with a full rack of these

EG4 LL-S Lithium Batteries Kit | 30.72kWh | 6 Server Rack Batteries With Pre-Assembled Enclosed Rack | With Door & Wheels | Busbar Covers

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

A full 6-slot rack will provide 30.72kWh of storage capacity. Considering avoiding discharging the batteries down below 20%, I would be looking at about 24.57kWh of usable storage capacity with the ability to expand if needed with another rack and one 100amp hour battery at a time to meet my needs. The fire suppressant in the batteries is a hard stop in the system.

Adding all the bits and components up for the complete system will run right around $20k, hooking up to the utility company would be $26k and then a monthly bill.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Geo thermal

TLDR Version, with one 4-6 ton ground loop the hydronic loops in the slab it will stay around a constant 65-69 degrees year round with no exchanger.

After pulling all the data I could find from not only meteorological databases but also the USGS for geo thermal wells in my area it seems I can accurately hold a 65-69 degree average from one large ground loop.

The ground loop would have to be in the 6-8 foot deep range with coils roughly 32-36" wide in an out and back configuration.

The plumbing is comprised of a couple thousand feet of 3/4"-1" HDPE piping using thermal socket welds for connections from a circulation pump near the manifold in the house.

Per calculations the 2-3 GPM circulation pump will be sufficient enough to provide a constant 65-69 degree floor in the house year round with out the use of a exchanger, extractor or boiler. I will of course leave room in the system for adding mechanical options later if needed but the bump probably wouldnt require more than a tankless setup with a plate style heat exchanger.

If I was in a colder climate it would definatley need some sort of mechanical appliance to increase the one output but thus far I am going to wing it and see what I can accomplish on a recirculation pump alone with some carefully crafted zones in the slab.

With he latest offerings of modular manifolds having pressure and temp on each leg one can fine tune the zones and loops to use the Geo thermal recovery as efficiently as possible especially when using slab tempature sensor thermostats and automating the process.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0797MQT95/?coliid=I3K9YKIYNCXUF6&colid=191WIE14BX8XT&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

I think in total the cost for geothermal will run me around $2400 in materials and will have a inclusive system that wont require any other supplemental Heat or AC but will still have the ability to add on if needed down the road.

 

[Westy]

Geo thermal

TLDR Version, with one 4-6 ton ground loop the hydronic loops in the slab it will stay around a constant 65-69 degrees year round with no exchanger.


View attachment 208894

After pulling all the data I could find from not only meteorological databases but also the USGS for geo thermal wells in my area it seems I can accurately hold a 65-69 degree average from one large ground loop.

The ground loop would have to be in the 6-8 foot deep range with coils roughly 32-36" wide in an out and back configuration.

View attachment 208896

The plumbing is comprised of a couple thousand feet of 3/4"-1" HDPE piping using thermal socket welds for connections from a circulation pump near the manifold in the house.

Per calculations the 2-3 GPM circulation pump will be sufficient enough to provide a constant 65-69 degree floor in the house year round with out the use of a exchanger, extractor or boiler. I will of course leave room in the system for adding mechanical options later if needed but the bump probably wouldnt require more than a tankless setup with a plate style heat exchanger.

If I was in a colder climate it would definatley need some sort of mechanical appliance to increase the one output but thus far I am going to wing it and see what I can accomplish on a recirculation pump alone with some carefully crafted zones in the slab.

View attachment 208897

With he latest offerings of modular manifolds having pressure and temp on each leg one can fine tune the zones and loops to use the Geo thermal recovery as efficiently as possible especially when using slab tempature sensor thermostats and automating the process.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0797MQT95/?coliid=I3K9YKIYNCXUF6&colid=191WIE14BX8XT&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

I think in total the cost for geothermal will run me around $2400 in materials and will have a inclusive system that wont require any other supplemental Heat or AC but will still have the ability to add on if needed down the road.

Interesting, the slab in my basement tends to hold at 53 degrees year round at about 3' deep.

 

[boostindoubles]

The slabs move heat so slowly - theyre great heat sources but it's not like you can turn the t-stat up and see air degree changes happen in real time.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Whole home automation

Thanks to @Westy and @canadmos for getting me in the right direction with ChatGPT I was able to find a clear choice in automation software and development.



Home assistant comes out as the obvious choice for many reason but mostly because it has already been done thousands of times over, can be coded and tested via chat gpt, has the ability to integrate with so many other brands of device firmware and most beneficially has an overwhelming amount of knowledge base with its users, forums and groups.

They have some pretty serious protocols for security and privacy that really appeal to me that will be even more fortified with my specific networks.

I was able to use Chatgpt to write out and test strings in a matter of seconds that can be tossed from device to device such as tablets, raspberyy pi and arduinos as if you were moving a tab from screen to screen. I can use a rack mounted and din rail devices for the relays, switches and monitoring and have everything ran off a customizable UI that generates as a webpage or in app form.

One home automation function I needed as a priority were leak sensors and actuated ball valves, I was able to have AI write the code blocks for when a leak sensor is detected the Raspberyy pi will use the din rail devices to signal the appropriate addressable ball valve that corresponds to the leak zone and use a relay to shut off the water supply and then shut off the well pump. This was written and tested for functionality in less than a minute.

I also was able to write a code for each individual leg of the hydronic floor heating to average out the time and duration of flow to each one based on the location of a iphones location over time.

yeah, yeah, pretty geeky but I am enjoying the process

Not sure if any of you are using home assistant but its worth checking out

 

[gonefirefightin]

Interesting, the slab in my basement tends to hold at 53 degrees year round at about 3' deep.

I bet its 10 degrees warmer another foot

The slabs move heat so slowly - theyre great heat sources but it's not like you can turn the t-stat up and see air degree changes happen in real time.

It really depends on the system I have found over the years. The retro fit options of installation and progress through the years have dialed it in to a science. using 1/2 pex and being 1/2" under the slab surface with a 3" insulative vapor barrier underneath you can see transfer on a thermal cam in a matter of minutes.

If the sabs move heat slowly they were probably built with too much mud over the top and were poured over gravel and mesh is what ive found.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Interesting, the slab in my basement tends to hold at 53 degrees year round at about 3' deep.

According to the USGS there is a geo thermal ground loop a couple blocks from you across from the market on the corner. They are getting 64 degrees from 2 tons

 

[Westy]

According to the USGS there is a geo thermal ground loop a couple blocks from you across from the market on the corner. They are getting 64 degrees from 2 tons

Just makes me want to build a house at that depth. 64 degrees is my jam. Of course the soil goes from highly permeable to impermeable clay at about 4' so it would need to be a submarine when it rains.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Just makes me want to build a house at that depth. 64 degrees is my jam. Of course the soil goes from highly permeable to impermeable clay at about 4' so it would need to be a submarine when it rains.

Same gerl same,

60-65 degrees is fine year round for me, according to my math when I build the house in AZ next, a 4 ton ground loop will keep the arizona slab at or around 68 in 100 degree weather. That house may need a mini split but I doubt I will ever be there in the dead of summer. Can add one if needed.

 

[Westy]

Same gerl same,

60-65 degrees is fine year round for me, according to my math when I build the house in AZ next, a 4 ton ground loop will keep the arizona slab at or around 68 in 100 degree weather. That house may need a mini split but I doubt I will ever be there in the dead of summer. Can add one if needed.

My ideal home is a deep basement for a living area, a fire tower on top for spotting enemies with a large pole barn for a shop. Would happily replace the tower with a rock outcropping for more natural concealed firing positions.

 

[gonefirefightin]

My ideal home is a deep basement for a living area, a fire tower on top for spotting enemies with a large pole barn for a shop. Would happily replace the tower with a rock outcropping for more natural concealed firing positions.

Those attributes WILL be in place but only after final permit, occupancy cert and it def wont be shared online

 

[Westy]

Those attributes WILL be in place but only after final permit, occupancy cert and it def wont be shared online

How does one hide tailings from tunneling. Asking for a friend.

 

[boostindoubles]

How does one hide tailings from tunneling. Asking for a friend.

You'll have to keester it.

 

[gonefirefightin]

How does one hide tailings from tunneling. Asking for a friend.

conveyors have come a long way, just ask the cartels

 

[boostindoubles]

Sorry if I missed it - are you going to have a propane tank on site?

 

[Toshi]

Sorry if I missed it - are you going to have a propane tank on site?

from the original post, noting that he's fickle and has changed everything else in there

all major appliances will be LPG such as the dryer, range, oven, water heater, etc.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Sorry if I missed it - are you going to have a propane tank on site?

yessir, 1k gallon to be exact, 20kw genset, dryer, range, oven, fireplace, tankless water heater will last about a year before refilling.

 

[boostindoubles]

Go big bro! Get a 3k tank minimum!

You wont regret it - haha

We have a 500 running primary heat in 2k sq ft and we fiill it two - three times a year. There's no other appliances on it either.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Go big bro! Get a 3k tank minimum!

You wont regret it - haha

We have a 500 running primary heat in 2k sq ft and we fiill it two - three times a year. There's no other appliances on it either.

My last place was off grid in camp sherman, same usage same tank size, but in much colder temps and much more genset use would get me 6-8 months, I doubt I would use 800 gal in a year in the climate. Also good measure for cascadia subduction zones events

 

[boostindoubles]

I'm in a slab-on-grade stick built house that needs re-siding anyways.

There was a 10k tank in my front yard when I was a kid so bigger is better in my eyes.

Are you going to loop that ground heat through some radiators on fans to condition the air space?

 

[gonefirefightin]

I'm in a slab-on-grade stick built house that needs re-siding anyways.

There was a 10k tank in my front yard when I was a kid so bigger is better in my eyes.

Are you going to loop that ground heat through some radiators on fans to condition the air space?

As for now I dont see a need for any mechanical in the geo system other than a 2-3gpm circulation pump, I can add a exchanger down the road if needed but doubt it will be an issue. I am building the zones to be used independently anyways so even a solar water heater would do what I needed if it had to be bumped 10-20 degrees

 

[boostindoubles]

Right on - sounds like fun!

 

[Changleen]

How is it off grid if you need the entirety of the fossil fuel industry to keep your oven going?

 

[gonefirefightin]

How is it off grid if you need the entirety of the fossil fuel industry to keep your oven going?

There is just no pleasing you

 

[CBJ]

How is it off grid if you need the entirety of the fossil fuel industry to keep your oven going?

Well technically its off grid and if alternatives to propane improves, gets cheaper etc. it will easier to lower use of propane with this setup vs actually being on the grid and having paid to connect. At least that is the case round here.

 

[gonefirefightin]

ok, I will play,

Technically the term off grid is defined as a dwelling that without the use of one or more grid based utilities. In my case I will be off the power grid, water grid and sewer grid and my own LPG rather than a NG grid.

You would be very hard pressed to find any off grid home without LPG. The cost of solar/infrastructure to run a 220v dryer, 220v oven, 220v range, 220v water heater and 220v HVAC would be at least double and I doubt I would have the space for the additional solar arrays.

the main reason for LPG is for the 20kw genset since the property is in the highest rated seismic zone in the country. If and when a subduction zone event happens I will be good to go for quite some time since infrastructure will be crippled for months if not a year on the coast.

and besides, I like cooking with gas and an electric clothes dryer is useless in this humidity

 

[Changleen]

There is just no pleasing you

Yes, it is a problem for me too.

 

[Toshi]

220v dryer, 220v oven, 220v range, 220v water heater and 220v HVAC

small food for thought:

new-gen 120V heat pump washer/dryer combo

120V battery-assisted induction stove

but if you like gas and inhaling combustion byproducts you do you. I like our (conventional 240V 40A) induction cooktop. swapped out from gas.

 

[Changleen]

ok, I will play,

Technically the term off grid is defined as a dwelling that without the use of one or more grid based utilities. In my case I will be off the power grid, water grid and sewer grid and my own LPG rather than a NG grid.

You would be very hard pressed to find any off grid home without LPG. The cost of solar/infrastructure to run a 220v dryer, 220v oven, 220v range, 220v water heater and 220v HVAC would be at least double and I doubt I would have the space for the additional solar arrays.

the main reason for LPG is for the 20kw genset since the property is in the highest rated seismic zone in the country. If and when a subduction zone event happens I will be good to go for quite some time since infrastructure will be crippled for months if not a year on the coast.

and besides, I like cooking with gas and an electric clothes dryer is useless in this humidity

Quite a lot of people over here are building totally off grid homes, and it doesn’t seem that wild. I guess everything is 220/240 by default for us so a bit different perhaps. We recently visited a friend who has built a place with 100% electric off grid, it was cool. He had an induction hob (range) too, a heat pump (3 actually) for heating and cooling etc. This stuff is default electric over here anyway, I’m not sure I could actually buy a lpg washer and dryer if I wanted to, heat pumps are basically the normal thing to have now and (3 phase) induction hobs are becoming more and more common. This chap has some solar on the roof, some in a paddock and a room full of batteries.

Also from seismic risk perspective, lpg is a much higher risk than electric power in a quake, as you know Aotearoa is also quite quake prone, and whilst you can build lpg systems to be quake resistant, it’s a lot harder than an electrical system where the transmission infrastructure is flexible by default.

 

[Adventurous]

Go big bro! Get a 3k tank minimum!

You wont regret it - haha

We have a 500 running primary heat in 2k sq ft and we fiill it two - three times a year. There's no other appliances on it either.

Jesus. I've got 2, 120 gallon tanks handling heating duties below 35* for an 1,800 sqft house and fill those 2-3 times per year.

 

[boostindoubles]

Jesus. I've got 2, 120 gallon tanks handling heating duties below 35* for an 1,800 sqft house and fill those 2-3 times per year.

Are they tied together, acting as one tank or are they seperate?

I need to re-side and install new doors and windows really bad!

 

[gonefirefightin]

Quite a lot of people over here are building totally off grid homes, and it doesn’t seem that wild. I guess everything is 220/240 by default for us so a bit different perhaps. We recently visited a friend who has built a place with 100% electric off grid, it was cool. He had an induction hob (range) too, a heat pump for heating and cooling etc. This stuff is default electric over here anyway, I’m not sure I could actually buy a lpg washer and dryer if I wanted to, heat pumps are basically the normal thing to have now and (3 phase) induction hobs are becoming more and more common. This chap has some solar on the roof, some in a paddock and a room full of batteries.

Also from seismic risk perspective, lpg is a much higher risk than electric power in a quake, as you know Aotearoa is also quite quake prone, and whilst you can build lpg systems to be quake resistant, it’s a lot harder than an electrical system where the transmission infrastructure is flexible by default.

North america is still in the stone age as far as power grid and construction techniques, Firstly our 220v is single phase for residential where as the rest of the world is 3 phase, that means north american appliances for 220 are very power hungry especially for inductive loads such as motors and coils/exchangers thus making them very inefficient, but more importantly impossible to get a hold of even if you built a 3 phase solar/battery setup, thus I am having to rely on LPG for the heavy lifting. Considering I can get bulk pricing around $1.30 a gallon and run on 800 gallons easily in a whole year the cost differential is signifigant to building the solar/battery infrastructure and finding appliances that can be as efficient.

The seismic concerns of LPG in my zone it not an issue, the tanks themselves are hard mounted and strapped and all the lines are flexible HDPE that are heat welded. Only very short segments of iron pipe are used sparingly in certain areas like soil to air transitions and manifolds.

 

[Adventurous]

Are they tied together, acting as one tank or are they seperate?

I need to re-side and install new doors and windows really bad!

In series. My provider calculated the 500 would be overkill, a 1000 even moreso.

And yes, new doors and windows would help a lot. We did our windows 2 years back cause you could see daylight through rot in the originals. Same with the doors, there are definite air gaps. At this point, all of those need to be replaced too.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Jesus. I've got 2, 120 gallon tanks handling heating duties below 35* for an 1,800 sqft house and fill those 2-3 times per year.

if you do the math its not far off, 240 gal @ 3 times a year is still 720 gal. a 1,000 gal tank will only hold 800 so you are using the same amount just smaller tanks and more refills.

 

[Changleen]

North america is still in the stone age as far as power grid and construction techniques, Firstly our 220v is single phase for residential where as the rest of the world is 3 phase, that means north american appliances for 220 are very power hungry especially for inductive loads such as motors and coils/exchangers thus making them very inefficient, but more importantly impossible to get a hold of even if you built a 3 phase solar/battery setup, thus I am having to rely on LPG for the heavy lifting. Considering I can get bulk pricing around $1.30 a gallon and run on 800 gallons easily in a whole year the cost differential is signifigant to building the solar/battery infrastructure and finding appliances that can be as efficient.

The seismic concerns of LPG in my zone it not an issue, the tanks themselves are hard mounted and strapped and all the lines are flexible HDPE that are heat welded. Only very short segments of iron pipe are used sparingly in certain areas like soil to air transitions and manifolds.

Wow, that’s interesting, and annoying. That’s actually a massive inhibition for your country’s transition to a green economy I guess. I didn’t know you had single phase only as default.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Wow, that’s interesting, and annoying. That’s actually a massive inhibition for your country’s transition to a green economy I guess. I didn’t know you had single phase only as default.

Stone age I tell ya, the infrastructure will never be changed as well since all the power generations is based off that same principal to the point we are stuck at 60hz now. North American electric grid system delivers AC powered at 110-120V with a frequency of 60 Hz, European nations use AC powered at 220-240V with a frequency of 50 Hz only due to historic reasons. america just cant get its shit together.

 

[boostindoubles]

In series. My provider calculated the 500 would be overkill, a 1000 even moreso.

And yes, new doors and windows would help a lot. We did our windows 2 years back cause you could see daylight through rot in the originals. Same with the doors, there are definite air gaps. At this point, all of those need to be replaced too.

I bet your propane guy was thinking he needs to hang onto the bigger tanks for other customers.

Or if you have them mounted up against your house - 120 is the largest size tank you can place against a building. If you had anything bigger you'd be digging a trench and placing the tank (I think its 14ft minimum) away from the structure. They'll hook a couple 120's together to scirt that rule.

 

[Adventurous]

North america is still in the stone age as far as power grid and construction techniques, Firstly our 220v is single phase for residential where as the rest of the world is 3 phase, that means north american appliances for 220 are very power hungry especially for inductive loads such as motors and coils/exchangers thus making them very inefficient, but more importantly impossible to get a hold of even if you built a 3 phase solar/battery setup, thus I am having to rely on LPG for the heavy lifting. Considering I can get bulk pricing around $1.30 a gallon and run on 800 gallons easily in a whole year the cost differential is signifigant to building the solar/battery infrastructure and finding appliances that can be as efficient.

The seismic concerns of LPG in my zone it not an issue, the tanks themselves are hard mounted and strapped and all the lines are flexible HDPE that are heat welded. Only very short segments of iron pipe are used sparingly in certain areas like soil to air transitions and manifolds.

$1.30/gal

My last fill up in January was $2.95/gal. Friend in town paid $3.55/gal around that same time.

 

[gonefirefightin]

$1.30/gal

My last fill up in January was $2.95/gal. Friend in town paid $3.55/gal around that same time.

Thats retail my friend, if you have at least a 1,000 gal tank you qualify for bulk prices from a distributor, you just have schedule it far ahead of time, out peak season and pay in cash.

 

[Adventurous]

I bet your propane guy was thinking he needs to hang onto the bigger tanks for other customers.

Or if you have them mounted up against your house - 120 is the largest size tank you can place against a building. If you had anything bigger you'd be digging a trench and placing the tank (I think its 14ft minimum) away from the structure. They'll hook a couple 120's together to scirt that rule.

That's probably it. They installed in March and wouldn't trench until things thawed out. Tanks are ~6ft off the house.