Call me an amatuer, but what does FSR stand for? :S Full-suspension-racing or something of the like? Thanks
Really?splat said:FSR is a company name, who specilized ( amoung others ) has licensed the design from.
binary visions said:Really?
AFAIK, Specialized doesn't license the patent, they bought it - people license it from them. I thought FSR was the name they gave to it.
AMP as the first Virtual Pivot Point design? Really? I thought they were the first Macpherson Strut bikes? The first time I've ever heard of the VPP moniker was on the Outland.Dirtjumper999 said:specialized owns the fsr design, company's go through specialized to use it. I can't remember what it stands for though, i'll find out though. Beleive it or not the amp bikes were actually the first vpp.
AMP was the first company to utilitze the Horst link, I'm almost positive that Outland was the first one to try the VPP design.Pau11y said:AMP as the first Virtual Pivot Point design? Really? I thought they were the first Macpherson Strut bikes? The first time I've ever heard of the VPP moniker was on the Outland.
Correct BV.binary visions said:AMP was the first company to utilitze the Horst link, I'm almost positive that Outland was the first one to try the VPP design.
whoa hey gastro how ya doin'gastro said:Future Shock Rear
Well, I'd say that anyone saying "VPP" intends to mean Virtual Pivot Point, as in the patent, and if they don't then they're being misleading and deserve to be misunderstoodOGRipper said:Edit: Hahaha, my point was that dirtjumper might be right if meant virtual pivot in the generic sense.
I heard it was Full Suspension Response... of course that was from a sales rep... and we all know the BS that come out of their mouths!mr2monster said:I heard the same thing and I thought it stood for Full Suspension Rear
It is FULL SUSPENSION RIDE.Corksil said:Hmm, lot's of definitions. I think I'll go with full-suspension-rear, because I like the way it sounds, but if anyone asks me, I'll point them here.
Now the FSR, by your description is a vpp since the pivoting point is somewhere between the lower pivot and link. What/how does the Karpiels pivot classify? It actually moves up and slightly back as it progresses thru it's travel - floating vpp? What other frames behaves like this, DW?OGRipper said:Virtual pivot and VPP are not the same. Virtual pivot is a generic description for a bike with links instead of an actual pivot point. The swingarm moves around a "virtual" pivot point, and that point can and often does change as you move through travel. Just about every linkage bike (DW, Maestro, FSR) is a virtual pivot point bike. The exceptions are the Kona (and now, Turner) style rear ends that are really single pivots.
On the other hand VPP is a patented design and trademarked name. Only Outland/SCB/Intense bikes are allowed to be "VPP."
So, all VPP bikes are virtual pivot bikes, but not all virtual pivot bikes are VPP.
Edit: Hahaha, my point was that dirtjumper might be right if meant virtual pivot in the generic sense.
Yep, anything but a standard single pivot is a "virtual pivot".Pau11y said:Now the FSR, by your description is a vpp since the pivoting point is somewhere between the lower pivot and link. What/how does the Karpiels pivot classify? It actually moves up and slightly back as it progresses thru it's travel - floating vpp? What other frames behaves like this, DW?
Oh no, the chronic masturbator found me on the Monkey!revmonkey said:whoa hey gastro how ya doin'
OK I talked to My LBS owner and specilzed dealer about this.( I didn't ask what it ment , dummy me )binary visions said:Really?
AFAIK, Specialized doesn't license the patent, they bought it - people license it from them. I thought FSR was the name they gave to it.
I don't know about the rest (I think they've owned the patent for longer than that), but this certainly can't be true. Companies like Knolly have only been around for a few years and are using Horst link bikes.splat said:once specilized owned it they would only let Companies that already had Contracts for the licese use it, because they were contractually obligated too, they will not license it out to any one else any more.
And this one is really interstingOther companies use a four bar linkage design that differ from the FSR/Horst Link by positioning the chain stay pivot in a position that doesn’t interfere with Specialized’s patent. These include designs from Ellsworth, Titus, and Kona.
JANUARY 17, 2006 -- MORGAN HILL, CA (BRAIN)—Scott USA has dropped its challenge of Specialized’s suspension patents and will not sell its four-bar linkage Genius full-suspension bicycle design in the United States.
“After being forced to defend our FSR patent for more than 18 months, we can once again focus strictly on what we do best—making great bikes and equipment,” said Mike Sinyard, Specialized’s founder and president. Specialized settled a similar suspension suit with Jamis in 2003.
Scott USA originally pursued a licensing deal with Specialized to allow it to sell its popular Genius in the U.S. market. Scott was hoping to strike a similar licensing deal to what Specialized has with a variety of other manufacturers. But the company is not as open to licensing deals as it once was.
“The FSR design has proved itself and our business has matured. Now differentiation is more important to us and our dealers, so we are not looking for additional licensees for this technology,” Sinyard said.
Scott USA sells Genius bikes in 60 other countries around the world including Canada, something unaffected by the settlement. But the company wanted to sell the bike in the U.S. market. It questioned Specialized’s claim that the design infringed on its patents, so it challenged the patents.
“After 18 months of battling it out in court the judge said the case was too close to call. The next step was going to trial,” said Scott Montgomery, Scott USA’s vice president of the bicycle division.
Rather than continue investing more money in the issue Scott settled with Specialized, agreeing not to sell Genius bikes in the U.S. market.
“Our dealers have pre-ordered so many Ransoms that it didn’t make sense to continue to spend money on the suit. We have other great designs in development, so it’s time to settle with Specialized and move on,” Montgomery said. The Ransom is Scott’s 2006 high-end full-suspension design.
Specialized is not currently pursuing any suspension patent infringement suits with any other companies. However, Sinyard said Specialized is serious about protecting its intellectual property and he does not rule out future suits.
The company at one time licensed its FSR design to close to 10 companies, including Kestrel, Colnago, Turner, Giant, Ellsworth and others. Many of these companies no longer license the technology and Specialized is not disclosing what manufacturers currently pay royalties for the design.
Intellectual property battles over suspension designs are common. RockShox was almost driven to bankruptcy by two patent battles in 2002 before SRAM took the company over. And Pacific recently settled a long dispute with Trek and Maverick over suspension patent infringement issues.
Specialized’s patent dispute with Scott spilled over into retailer conversations last summer as many felt forced to choose between the companies over the patent issue.
Now that the matter between the two companies is settled, will Scott and Specialized embrace each other in a big hug? It is unlikely as the number of retailers is predicted to continue to fall and competition over the remaining dealers will remain fierce.
“Just like dealers are interested and concerned where we as Specialized sell our products, we as a supplier are interested in how dealers present our product to the market. It’s a two-way street,” Sinyard said.
For its part, Scott is looking forward to 2007 when it will release a full line of suspension bikes.
“Of course we missed the three- to five-inch suspension travel segment because of our involvement in the suit, but we will have that addressed in 2007,” Montgomery said.
“I am not sure we could have grown any faster anyway. It takes time to build the infrastructure to support the growth we’ve had,” he added.
Where'd you find that article? That's another piece of inaccurate information. Titus does use a Horst link on their bikes (licensed from Specialized), and Kona doesn't use a chainstay pivot at all, they use a seatstay pivot, so of course they're not interfering with Specialized's patent.splat said:found this out on the Net
Other companies use a four bar linkage design that differ from the FSR/Horst Link by positioning the chain stay pivot in a position that doesn’t interfere with Specialized’s patent. These include designs from Ellsworth, Titus, and Kona.
Wow, they should have come up with something a little better! Sounds like someone who rode the shortbus made it up.:mumble:revmonkey said:thats kinda weird, titus actually uses FSR, and has FSR printed on their bikes...
anyways, to set it in stone:
What does FSR stand for?
Question
What does FSR stand for?
Answer
At 11/22/99 11:04 AM we wrote -
FSR stands for "Future Shock Rear".
from specialized FAQ.
Where is this rumored "Specialized FAQ"? I couldn't find it on their website. I'm in the "Future Shock Rear" camp - remember when they had a carbon fork out called the Future Shock? At least I think that's what it was called.........revmonkey said:thats kinda weird, titus actually uses FSR, and has FSR printed on their bikes...
anyways, to set it in stone:
What does FSR stand for?
Question
What does FSR stand for?
Answer
At 11/22/99 11:04 AM we wrote -
FSR stands for "Future Shock Rear".
from specialized FAQ.
That's why it's best to ignore all that crap.binary visions said:Incidentally, I've been poking around looking for the differences between ICT and Horst links, and there's just an absolutely shocking amount of misinformation out there...
Ugh, it's all I can do not to sign up for forum accounts at all of these places and bring all of these threads back from the dead correcting people.SkaredShtles said:That's why it's best to ignore all that crap.
You see - you'll be happier if you just ignore all that crap.binary visions said:Ugh, it's all I can do not to sign up for forum accounts at all of these places and bring all of these threads back from the dead correcting people.
It's not so much that a few people have it wrong, since hey, I've had plenty of misinformation in my life, it just frustrates me when I see someone post something, "FSRs have a perfectly vertical axle path" and defend it to the death when someone corrects them. 'Cause you know that guy is still refusing to believe otherwise and is still going around telling people.
Learn from those who know more than you! Sheesh.
OGRipper said:"ICT" is not a set of initials, it doesn't stand for anything. It's actually a word that is pronounced "Ick."
ink:
Mine just says FS on it but I'm pretty sure it stood for future shock. It weighs 2.4 lbs or something close.SkaredShtles said:remember when they had a carbon fork out called the Future Shock?