money has a lot to do with buying/licensing someone's product...unless a company like Sony makes something eerily similar to another company's product, which they call sxrd....oh wait, sorry off topic.
DW Link to Turner for 09
- Thread starter Nagaredama
- Start date
-
- Tags
- .iron horse is dead .long live iron horse anal bum covers armchair engineers be or not to be chuck weagle dw-link ethnocentric americanism fapping flexy links gripe needs a nap i is ungineer jcl lubes stanchions linky squeeze pinky salad tossing by jcl sam hill=turner sticky keyboard turner wannabe sunday you know you want!
Suspension Center for a start (Emmeline Ragot).
if i was dave id be mildly disappointed. all this time keeping a secret for it to come up one night short.
hopefully someone posts pics of an actual frame or build if they have one at eurodyke or interdyke.
hopefully someone posts pics of an actual frame or build if they have one at eurodyke or interdyke.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but to say that money was the sole factor would be ludicrous.
As long as there is a bike built up at the show, Transcend will have photos tomorrow when the show opens its doors.if i was dave id be mildly disappointed. all this time keeping a secret for it to come up one night short.
hopefully someone posts pics of an actual frame or build if they have one at eurodyke or interdyke.
and within 13 hours, Fraser will have a thoroughly abused liver :biggrin:
Nope, I am not at the show this year. I have a few guys on the ground covering things for me. I figured having to do one trade show this year was more than enough.
First you skip Canberra, now Eurobike.... sheesh what are you, some sort of armchair photographer?
A guy who wanted a week or 2 off this year! Schladmign next week, Interbike, Rampage, Rome.First you skip Canberra, now Eurobike.... sheesh what are you, some sort of armchair photographer?
Still a busy schedule to go.
amateurs. . . . . .First you skip Canberra, now Eurobike.... sheesh what are you, some sort of armchair photographer?
then again, you d provide some of theee most sexual pictures in the industry.
thumbs up.
Sweetness,
I had heard someting a while back but didnt really think...
O well
I had heard someting a while back but didnt really think...
O well
OK, i'm gonna be a little less cynical, its my first thread here, but i've been in the industry a loooong time, and i'm fully aware of the background, patents licencing etc...
Ih8rice is perhaps grasping my point, which Ok was mibbe a bit over zealous, but its still my opinion, can you honestly see what is gonna be written in the Turner brochure, "we developed the RFX from...oh, wait a minute, no we didnt" it will be full of pictures, how can they do this and maintain credibility, I had a Turner Burner 13 years ago, i loved it, it was truly awesome, OK, take the technology, run with it, do something different though, work with it or something, its a VERY poor effort from a company i idolized not so long ago, Tyurners prices in the UK are a disgrace, so this doesnt go down well with me, if they are still a fortune, whats thier excuse, R&D? i dint think so.
If IH had facelifted the Point series this year, they would have looked like this, also my point about caot tails was riding on the succes of IH bikes, not copying thier designs, folk cant get an IH point, so they'll buy one of these whatever the cost. i feel its just a crap effort all round, and they've a cheek asking us all to swallow it.
IMO
No, unless TE is a strapping scotsman who drinks at a rate he probably should'nt then throws up this Sunday whilst half way round his local trail centre?
You took the keyboard right out from under my fingers.
Interesting news - Its always different to see a bike live but so far not as aesthetically pleasing as the Sunday. Also so far not something that would make me sell my Sunday and get this one. Always wanted to own a Turner though.
Basically, I THINK the point you are making is that the Turner frames are going to be super expensive now, is that right? I only vaguely looked over your post though. The way I see it is that Sam Hill(#1 in the World) rode for IronHorse. IH didn't have a great team until DW teamed up with them, even though they did have Sam, Nathan, and Bryan.
To sum this up, Sam didn't hit big until the Sunday design with DW, so DW was being directly related to Sam's success. Where ever the DW Link goes, that is where the customers will go. Iron Horse didn't make the technology, they just applied it to some Aluminum tubing.
Turner will make a fortune off of the new frames, and I'm willing to put a lot of money on that. Maybe not this next season but in the 2010 MSC, I guarantee you there will be a ton, especially if they make a Nationals and WC Team.
This might sound incredibly stupid because I dragged it out so much, but I'm standing behind it.
To sum this up, Sam didn't hit big until the Sunday design with DW, so DW was being directly related to Sam's success. Where ever the DW Link goes, that is where the customers will go. Iron Horse didn't make the technology, they just applied it to some Aluminum tubing.
Turner will make a fortune off of the new frames, and I'm willing to put a lot of money on that. Maybe not this next season but in the 2010 MSC, I guarantee you there will be a ton, especially if they make a Nationals and WC Team.
This might sound incredibly stupid because I dragged it out so much, but I'm standing behind it.
TE is Tony Ellsworth and long time nemesis of DT (Dave Turner) in the boutique bike world. Its a joke from the Turner forum on mtbr.com.
Haha. What do you think the DW-link is free? You think Turner just said to Dave Weagle can I have your dw-link on my bikes for free and that was ok? It doesn't matter if a subcontractor/consultant/whoever does the R&D, the company (Turner in this case) will still pay for it.
Last edited:
The site's working fine for me now.
I wonder if the bulk of the frames will still use bushings? DHR is the only bike speced with a coil? Also, notice the swoopy tubing on the RFX and DHR that I haven't seen on a Turner before... Ever.
Not to point out the obvious here, but I also think it's funny how Iron Horse went to ICT now and Turner will be DW. Musical suspension designs.
I wonder if the bulk of the frames will still use bushings? DHR is the only bike speced with a coil? Also, notice the swoopy tubing on the RFX and DHR that I haven't seen on a Turner before... Ever.
Not to point out the obvious here, but I also think it's funny how Iron Horse went to ICT now and Turner will be DW. Musical suspension designs.
Quick "Sunday" owners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To the classifieds!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To the classifieds!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, thats what i thought, stone me, you mean they paid for it.
What the hell is it with you 14 year olds on these forums, cant you read between the lines of a point, instead of digging for something to up your post count? I dont know where in the world you are son, but i'm sure its past your bed time?
To be honest, i don't like the look of the new DHR. However i find the Sunday very appealing. So they can't be exactly the same. I'll give it to you though that the RFX looks strikingly similar to the 7Point series. I would also still pay more money for the DHR or RFX (even though i don't find this new DHR appealing) purely based on the fact that Turner's ARE, and always WILL BE, a much nicer build. The quality at Turner far outshines the Ironhorse!
Exactly what I thought, except I'm not sure I like it at first look.
I'm sure it will be a killer ride but aesthetically challenged IMO. I prefer the vertical shock positioning of the Sunday (and RFX).
Guess I'll squeeze another year or two out of my Sunday.
I was talking about the RFX and similar in my previous posts, of course the DHR looks nothing like the Sunday.
I agree with you on the DHR too, its a bit rough in my opinion. I prefer a more traditional looking bike all round, not to say it wont work like a charm.
Have you owned both IH and Turner bikes? Dealt with their CS?
I have, and currently own a Sunday.....while it is a great riding bike and seems to be well put together (it is US built)...the attention to detail and quality of build is a fair bit shy of any of the Tuners I have owned.
Will Iron horse warranty second hand bikes???? offer $500 trade in value on ANY old frame, working or not? ..Turner does.
Does Iron horse source all their raw materials from the US and then have them all built/machined/welded/painted/etc here in the US (not saying that overseas quality cannot be good, but fewer jobs and goods farmed to the orient is a good thing..and we all know that labor and parts are more $$ here...bikes are built in asia to boost company profit, not lower consumer cost period (see Specialized, IH, etc)? Turner does.
I would suggest you open your eyes and look around. You will see plenty of QC issues with IH bikes over the last few years, and the overwhelming response from IH has been to blame some one else.
You have a problem with a Turner..it gets taken care of period. Does not matter the age of the frame, or who bought it, or where or how it failed...they take care of their customer without excuse or typical bike biz BS.
Awesome.......and quite the resemblance
The thing is (from what i gather) is that you are crediting Ironhorse with developing the dw link bikes, and Turner are just copying the build. I don't think they (DT and DW) could really stray that far from the look without making it look ghastly or ruining the suspension. The bikes need to look like that to be dw-link suspension. I look at it now as DW brings the suspension design/layout and Turner brings the build quality, which was something that was definitely missing on the first sundays...
Gripe, given how long you say you've been around you are showing a lack of understanding of how bike stuff gets made. DW is an independent engineer, and he has a patented design that has been successful. If Iron Horse was worried about this sort of thing, they should have either never used the DW link or bought the patent. But for whatever reason they didn't - instead they entered into a license agreement of limited duration, knowing that one day they would have to either renew or risk the technology ending up on other bikes.
You seem to be saying that DW should not be working with anyone other than IH. Given that IH is getting out of the high-end bike business, what should he do with the DW link?
You seem to be saying that DW should not be working with anyone other than IH. Given that IH is getting out of the high-end bike business, what should he do with the DW link?
Have you owned both IH and Turner bikes? Dealt with their CS?
Yes, i work and have worked in dealers for both.
I have, and currently own a Sunday.....while it is a great riding bike and seems to be well put together (it is US built)...the attention to detail and quality of build is a fair bit shy of any of the Tuners I have owned.
Good for you, and fair point perhaps.
Will Iron horse warranty second hand bikes???? offer $500 trade in value on ANY old frame, working or not? ..Turner does.
No, but niether does turner in the UK as far as i know (someone correct me?)
Does Iron horse source all their raw materials from the US and then have them all built/machined/welded/painted/etc here in the US (not saying that overseas quality cannot be good,
Not sure that matters to me, or a lot of others on this side of the pond to be honest?
we all know that labor and parts are more $$ here...bikes are built in asia to boost company profit, not lower consumer cost period
Only consumer affordability can boost company profit, which asian building gives almost all major bike companies. you could not expect a company like Specialized who sell tens of thousends of bikes a year to make even half of thier performance range indigenously, they would make NO money, they used to make all thier good stuff in the US, the brand grows, more sales, more demand, needs a solution, Asia is it, turner can do itas they have a rep for small production and good quality, id they sold an extra 2000 bikes this year, see how fast they run east for a "comp" model to boost the line.
its an unfair comparison.
I would suggest you open your eyes and look around. You will see plenty of QC issues with IH bikes over the last few years, and the overwhelming response from IH has been to blame some one else.
Take your own medicine open your eyes and take a look back, i never questioned Turners QC, its always been impeccable as far as i know. IH's distributer here has always been OK, and who says that if there is a continuing issue with IH, its not born of a huge demand for thier product, resulting in fast manufacturing, shortcuts and rushing stuff out, whoever inherits this type of bike is gonna end up with the same problem (maybe) dont think for a second your beloved Turner wont turn to Asia if theres a demand.
You have a problem with a Turner..it gets taken care of period. Does not matter the age of the frame, or who bought it, or where or how it failed...they take care of their customer without excuse or typical bike biz BS.
I'm really not quite sure what that staments got to do with anything i said?
Oh, and how do you know all of your above statement is even gonna apply to these 2009 bikes, have you been riding one for the last 6 months?
Yes, i work and have worked in dealers for both.
I have, and currently own a Sunday.....while it is a great riding bike and seems to be well put together (it is US built)...the attention to detail and quality of build is a fair bit shy of any of the Tuners I have owned.
Good for you, and fair point perhaps.
Will Iron horse warranty second hand bikes???? offer $500 trade in value on ANY old frame, working or not? ..Turner does.
No, but niether does turner in the UK as far as i know (someone correct me?)
Does Iron horse source all their raw materials from the US and then have them all built/machined/welded/painted/etc here in the US (not saying that overseas quality cannot be good,
Not sure that matters to me, or a lot of others on this side of the pond to be honest?
we all know that labor and parts are more $$ here...bikes are built in asia to boost company profit, not lower consumer cost period
Only consumer affordability can boost company profit, which asian building gives almost all major bike companies. you could not expect a company like Specialized who sell tens of thousends of bikes a year to make even half of thier performance range indigenously, they would make NO money, they used to make all thier good stuff in the US, the brand grows, more sales, more demand, needs a solution, Asia is it, turner can do itas they have a rep for small production and good quality, id they sold an extra 2000 bikes this year, see how fast they run east for a "comp" model to boost the line.
its an unfair comparison.
I would suggest you open your eyes and look around. You will see plenty of QC issues with IH bikes over the last few years, and the overwhelming response from IH has been to blame some one else.
Take your own medicine open your eyes and take a look back, i never questioned Turners QC, its always been impeccable as far as i know. IH's distributer here has always been OK, and who says that if there is a continuing issue with IH, its not born of a huge demand for thier product, resulting in fast manufacturing, shortcuts and rushing stuff out, whoever inherits this type of bike is gonna end up with the same problem (maybe) dont think for a second your beloved Turner wont turn to Asia if theres a demand.
You have a problem with a Turner..it gets taken care of period. Does not matter the age of the frame, or who bought it, or where or how it failed...they take care of their customer without excuse or typical bike biz BS.
I'm really not quite sure what that staments got to do with anything i said?
Oh, and how do you know all of your above statement is even gonna apply to these 2009 bikes, have you been riding one for the last 6 months?
dead on sir. same with the four bar. do you see much change between fsr/vps linkages? nope infact the difference between the sunday and that dhr are about the same as a norco team dh and a demo. same system, different configuration. turner looks like they tried to keep there frames as close to there old configuration as they could. even the top link looks just like my dhr's top link. so in doing that yep they look like the iron horses. however they could have completely reworked the system and spent countless dollars on r&d to re-work the whole line in one year, or take it one step at a time
edit: to those talking about IH getting out of high end, where did you hear this? if they where, why would they lisense the ICT suspention, and why would they say there still going to make a sunday with it...
Last edited:
......
fer phuck's sake...
Whoever the webguy was for Turner could have at LEAST waited like 12 more hours...? At least....?
:biggrin:
Oh well... I was talking this over with some people a few months back... heard some clues here and there, but nothing solid...had my suspicions but didn't really have them confirmed until I spoke with a local rider who was on a Turner... word was BIG changes were on the horizon for the DHR in 09... that was the last piece to the puzzle.
The insane thing is that something like 7 people in the industry were trusted with this info and now...
Pre-mature pagination on Turner's website aside, this frame looks phucking INSANE... THIS was what dw was burning up the hard drives with on his hot-rodded PC with FEA analysis...
Dave - you've brought an amazing looking creation into the world. Now let's see how she rips!
... and Gripe - if you really ARE an industry guy, judging from your horrendous attitude and lack of respect for your peers - it's definitely time for you to get out. Maybe move on to something else, you know? We all learn from one another, and that's what pushes design and fabrication to the next level. Someday someone out there is gonna come up with something that will blow THIS away - and that's the awesome part of it all...
fer phuck's sake...
Whoever the webguy was for Turner could have at LEAST waited like 12 more hours...? At least....?
:biggrin:
Oh well... I was talking this over with some people a few months back... heard some clues here and there, but nothing solid...had my suspicions but didn't really have them confirmed until I spoke with a local rider who was on a Turner... word was BIG changes were on the horizon for the DHR in 09... that was the last piece to the puzzle.
The insane thing is that something like 7 people in the industry were trusted with this info and now...
Pre-mature pagination on Turner's website aside, this frame looks phucking INSANE... THIS was what dw was burning up the hard drives with on his hot-rodded PC with FEA analysis...
Dave - you've brought an amazing looking creation into the world. Now let's see how she rips!
... and Gripe - if you really ARE an industry guy, judging from your horrendous attitude and lack of respect for your peers - it's definitely time for you to get out. Maybe move on to something else, you know?
We all learn from one another, and that's what pushes design and fabrication to the next level. Someday someone out there is gonna come up with something that will blow THIS away - and that's the awesome part of it all...
Last edited:
Turners are $$ in the UK because your distro is screwing you along with your countries import duties. Orange bikes are way overpriced in the states (so much so that they stopped importing them as they would not sell) for the same reason.
However, if you were to buy a Tuner in the UK and have a problem, you would be able to contact turner directly here in the states and get warranty service through them. I know of no other manufacturer of any goods that will bypass thier official distibution routes and help a consumer of a foreign county directly. Try to call Fox USA and tell them you want to warrant your fork cartrage and see what the say.....
On the IH/DW front.....the vast majority of people did NOT buy a Sunday, 7 point, 6 point, MK3, or other because they were IHs. They bought them because they were DW designed frames..despite who made them (possible to support a bunch of guys that got IH in the specialty bike biz and how are all gone as well). They wanted and purcahsed a DW bike period.
Now DW stopped working with IH of his own choice (I have my guesses as to why) AND IH is no longer selling ANY bikes (in the US) through local bike shops.
Just because they are using a DW link, it would be foolish to assume that the Turner versions will just be re-baged 6 or 7 points. I would be extremely suprised if Turner did not re-think many/all aspects of the frame. The DW link allows for a fair difference in ride characteristics. Look at the DHR for example....no concentric pivot....lower shock/mass...different link placement/length/angles.
So in the end, what you get now is a suspension design that many many people have gone out of their way and swallowed their pride to ride.....
That is now going to be built and refined by the MTB company with arguably the single best QC/warranty/CS in the business...
yea, definately a "crap effort"
Jesus, NO! all i did was say that the aesthetics of most of the designs, bear a striking resemblance to the IH Point series bikes, everyone knows about the DW, IH Patent, contract experation etc etc....
I think Turner copuld have done something a bit more adventurous with thier final design, still think its an aesthetic cop out, its like theyvr said, it worked for IH, lets make it a tiiiiiny bit different, all the saps that loved the IH range will buy one, only (in the UK at least) it will be 40-50% more expensive.
I could'nt give a rats ass if IH kept it or flushed it.
Not really. Not at all actually. Turner has had some of the biggest shortcomings in CS I've seen in terms of total unwillingness to help owners of older frames (original owners and second-hand), albeit that poor CS is collinear with their good CS. They just have been known to treat the same CS issue in two radically different ways.
Flame away.
I for one am happy to see the suspension design picked up by a quality company. Pivot and Ibis already make great bikes using the DW link, but they don't quite hit what I'm looking for on the nose. I currently ride a MKIII and love the way it rides but hanker after something that's slightly stiffer at the rear end and able to take agressive BC-stlye XC rides in it's stride. I hope Turner provide me with something like that in the new 5-spot.
stunning is all i can say
ive always drooled over Turners, but was never sold it was the right bike for me
now i know otherwise
ive always drooled over Turners, but was never sold it was the right bike for me
now i know otherwise
Although they're still pricey, if your shop has an account with UBP in Ashland Oregon, they distribute Orange frames.
