[Electric_City]

My 2017 Spartan felt way too small the first time I stood over it. I thought it was too small and wanted to swap the frame for a large. At 5'-8" this seems stupid! The stem is a 45mm 0* rise.

I looked back at the 2010-12 remedy- the bike I rode for 7 years. 2mm difference on the reach!? It can't feel that off cause of that. Laugh all you want, but that bike came with an 80mm stem w/7* rise and I didn't change it till 1-2 years ago and only went down to a 60mm w/10* of rise.

I looked at the Nomad since everyone loves that bike. The same reach! WTF?

I only rode the bike twice since I finished the build (pre season injuries) and around me we don't have flow trails. On any sharp turns, that fucking bar is right into my knees! Is this really the way these EndurBro bikes are being built? I keep seeing shorter and shorter.

I'll go with the Aeffect 60mm 6* rise and see how that feels.

Anyone else going longer?

 

[Udi]

No. Long stems suck for handling.
Personally my rule is 50mm on every bike unless there is an incredibly well-justified reason to stray from that.

If your bar is hitting your knees then you need a bigger bike. The "name" of the size (eg. medium, large) doesn't mean anything since it varies a lot between brands, and the reach measurement on its own does not mean much either (people should stop using that to compare bikes).

I've written about this in great detail in very recent posts if you do a search - last place was in Monarch's Commencal V4 thread.

A long stem will probably be a cheap temporary solution but not the best for bike handling. In my experience both Devinci and Commencal are the most notorious for making undersized bikes (Pivot used be the other one, but they seem to have improved) so in these cases it's usually best to go up a size as long as the WB value doesn't end up too long for the tracks you ride.

 

[Sandwich]

Wait what? Are you asking why people are using shorter stems? Are you wondering why your bike fits poorly with a shorter stem without increasing the reach at the same time?

If that's the question, then nobody is going longer. You need a longer bike. The cockpit length on my evil is similar in length to the cockpit on a cannondale rush I had years ago...but the stem is 40mm shorter, and the reach is longer. My guess is that you need a bike with like 20mm longer reach if you felt comfortable with a 60mm stem on it.

Why the longer reach/shorter stem? Slows down the steering and makes it feel more direct. More direct steering means you can go faster comfortably. The longer reach makes the wheelbase longer so you can go faster. It also stretches you out so that the overall cockpit length is the same. These are all good things, unless you're gary.

Don't go up to a 60mm stem unless you like the way it handles. Grab a longer frame when you can and move onto the 21st century, unless you're gary. I used to love longer stems, as it puts you further over the handlebars for climbing, but by combining the longer reach with the shorter stem, you get good handling with similar weight distribution. It's a win-win, unless you're gary.

 

[SylentK]

I am 6'2", ride a size L megatrail, and run a 50mm stem. Is that short? IDK.

When I first got the bike, I tried a 35mm. Cuz long reach/new skool geo. But after riding it, a longer stem was moar betterer. If you want to smash turns (real turns, not bermy sidewalk things), you gotta get over the front. Short stems don't help that.

 

[jonKranked]

I am 6'2", ride a size L megatrail, and run a 50mm stem. Is that short? IDK.

When I first got the bike, I tried a 35mm. Cuz long reach/new skool geo. But after riding it, a longer stem was moar betterer. If you want to smash turns (real turns, not bermy sidewalk things), you gotta get over the front. Short stems don't help that.

this sorta demonstrates that "long" can be relative. i have a 40mm stem on my large spitfire. 6'1". i have a 70mm stem on my xc bike, which i consider "long".

 

[StiHacka]

Long stems are great for this:

 

[Electric_City]

Hmmm...
Buy a new $2600 frame that's 19mm longer, or buy a $35 stem that's 15mm longer...

 

[iRider]

No. Long stems suck for handling.

I would say it depends. Short stems only work on bikes with slacker HA. I tried to put one on an old school XC bike and going below 70 mm sucked, even when I compensated for with a wider bar. Way to nervous.
I normally go a little shorter than recommended, but 50 mm on a steep HA XC bike doesn't work for me.

 

[Udi]

That might be relevant if this was the "old school XC forum".

 

[atrokz]

Long stems are great for this:

Easily the coolest move in mountain biking.

 

[jonKranked]

I would say it depends. Short stems only work on bikes with slacker HA. I tried to put one on an old school XC bike and going below 70 mm sucked, even when I compensated for with a wider bar. Way to nervous.
I normally go a little shorter than recommended, but 50 mm on a steep HA XC bike doesn't work for me.

that's the "lipstick on a pig" approach

 

[slyfink]

Hmmm...
Buy a new $2600 frame that's 19mm longer, or buy a $35 stem that's 15mm longer...

...and buy a new $1000 fork, and $700 for wheels because wheel sizes increased and hub widths expanded (but not quite enough)....

 

[mrgto]

I've for one am moving back to a longer stem incrementally. My 26" Megatrail is a Med. I'm 5'10 and the 35mm stem is just a little weird on the exit of fast flat corners.

I think it was Woo who was talking about the stem vs fork offset and how it might cause problems. My fork has a 40mm offset and I'm using a 35mm stem so it might be the answer to my problem or maybe I should just quit sucking at bicycles.

I'll have an answer when the brown guy shows up with my stem.

 

[norbar]

Hmmm...
Buy a new $2600 frame that's 19mm longer, or buy a $35 stem that's 15mm longer...

Sell the frame, buy a used frame. Loose no money, learn to look at reach charts or test a bike before buying for free.

 

[norbar]

...and buy a new $1000 fork, and $700 for wheels because wheel sizes increased and hub widths expanded (but not quite enough)....

2017 devinci needs a new fork and wheels?

 

[rockofullr]

I'm not your endurbra... bro

 

[Gary]

short stem
Short wheelbase
short reach
steep head angle
small wheels

Nervous?

STFU

 

[iRider]

That might be relevant if this was the "old school XC forum".

So, do we ban those "a downhiller's trail bike" and enduro conversations from here now? Because not DH???
Anyway, my XC trails sadly don't require a 64° HA Geometron bike and a sharp handling XC bike is just the right tool for the job.

 

[shirk007]

Bike feels to short seated or standing?

Nobody has mentioned top tube length and seat tube angle yet.

Both of those are going to play into how the bike feels seated. More than just reach and stem length to factor in how a bike feels unless all you do it stand all the time.

 

[Electric_City]

learn to look at reach charts or test a bike before buying for free.

Apparently you didn't read my OP about reach on 3 bikes.

"buying for free"?

 

[canadmos]

I'm 5'7/8ish and riding a medium Banshee Spitfire (27.5), running a Fox 3 and have had this short 35mm Easton stem for a few seasons now. Love it. The bike overall fits perfect, I think, and it feels better with that stem than the old 50/55 Transition stem did.

50mm stem on my medium DHR.

 

[marshalolson]

6'2'' guy here

Prefer offset plus 10mm on trail bikes, combined with a little narrower bar (770mm) vs a descending oriented bike (800mm and stem = offset).

 

[Udi]

So, do we ban those "a downhiller's trail bike" and enduro conversations from here now? Because not DH??? Anyway, my XC trails sadly don't require a 64° HA Geometron bike and a sharp handling XC bike is just the right tool for the job.

Personally my rule is 50mm on every bike unless there is an incredibly well-justified reason to stray from that.

1. "Personally" as in for my own bikes - none of which are oldschool XC.
2. This thread is about a Spartan which is Devinci's hardest-hitting Enduro bike so your post is hardly relevant.

 

[jstuhlman]

i run a fucking 70mm stem on my too-old unrideabru tiny wheeled bike. i keep up with/am faster than all my buddies on jist about any terrain/trails we ride, on their newest of the new fashionbikes...it's all great. eff all this nonsense. ask @canadmos if it seemed a problem on crap we hit last winter.

 

[Jm_]

So, do we ban those "a downhiller's trail bike" and enduro conversations from here now? Because not DH???
Anyway, my XC trails sadly don't require a 64° HA Geometron bike and a sharp handling XC bike is just the right tool for the job.

They do, you just don't know it yet.

 

[iRider]

They do, you just don't know it yet.

Did Chris Porter hack your account?

 

[norbar]

Apparently you didn't read my OP about reach on 3 bikes.

"buying for free"?

Sorry I was drunk. The free part was the lesson.

I have read your post. You have same reach on 3 bikes yet the new one has a short stem. It has shitty sizing. Get a frame with the correct size and use a short stem. Simple

 

[norbar]

i run a fucking 70mm stem on my too-old unrideabru tiny wheeled bike. i keep up with/am faster than all my buddies on jist about any terrain/trails we ride, on their newest of the new fashionbikes...it's all great. eff all this nonsense. ask @canadmos if it seemed a problem on crap we hit last winter.

This isn't a talk on how fast you are but if a longer bike with a shorter stem gives you NOTICEABLE improvements and if it's worth spending cash.

 

[Udi]

i run a fucking 70mm stem on my too-old unrideabru tiny wheeled bike. i keep up with/am faster than all my buddies on jist about any terrain/trails we ride, on their newest of the new fashionbikes...it's all great. eff all this nonsense. ask @canadmos if it seemed a problem on crap we hit last winter.

Gary? Is that you?

Come on, just pretend you ride an XL boost 29er so we can keep ripping on the special kids.

 

[Udi]

Anyway just so I haven't been completely useless, if anyone wants a little extra length on a bike with a standard taper steerer tube, Works have now got a +5mm reach adjust headset (0.2"). It fits a standard taper fork.

http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/reach-adjust---ec44-ec56-headset---to-suit-tapered-steerer-tube---5mm-reach-1239-p.asp

Maybe it's not for everyone, but I found 5-6mm noticeable. Just make sure you have a little extra steerer for the external cups, and probably email if interested to check when back in stock.

I've found their cups help me get an extra year out of bikes that internet bullies tell me aren't cool anymore - now I'm one of those bullies and with a little help you could be one too.

 

[Muddy]

Anyway just so I haven't been completely useless, if anyone wants a little extra length on a bike with a standard taper steerer tube, Works have now got a +5mm reach adjust headset (0.2"). It fits a standard taper fork.

http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/reach-adjust---ec44-ec56-headset---to-suit-tapered-steerer-tube---5mm-reach-1239-p.asp

Maybe it's not for everyone, but I found 5-6mm noticeable. Just make sure you have a little extra steerer for the external cups, and probably email if interested to check when back in stock.

I've found their cups help me get an extra year out of bikes that internet bullies tell me aren't cool anymore - now I'm one of those bullies and with a little help you could be one too.

Friend Request sent.

 

[Gary]

Gary? Is that you?

70mm? on a mountainbike?

er... not since 1993 - the pre-suspension dayz

 

[Electric_City]

@Udi- This isn't an argument, just my opinion... But what you're saying that a stem should be a fixed length without options even though there's generally 4 frame sizes available (s, m, l, xl)? Just go with me a minute. I'm 5'-8" or 172.7. According to Giants website I should be on there small frame Reign. 173 bumps me up to a medium (as always though, I'd just go for the medium). Giants small frame, according to their website, is for riders between 5'-2" and 5'-8" or 157-173. 6" per frame is a big difference to not have personal options. Should the seat height be fixed at "X" above the seat tube on each sized bike? Fwiw, I also disagree with someone whose shorter to be riding an 800mm bar width.

I have a more informative post with geo and why I went with, what I went with. Just give me some time to write it.

 

[PepperJester]

I've been running slightly "long" stems on my free ride... er enduro bikes for a while now. I have shortish legs and a longer upper body for my height so the fit works well for me this way. I've tried going up in frame size in the past to get the extra reach but prefer the shorter wheel base and lower stand over I get by keeping on a medium rather then bumping to a large. The only times I've felt I could benefit for a longer bike was on terrain that I really should be riding my DH bike on.

I picked up a new 2017 Specialized Enduro this spring it came stock with a 45mm stem. I'm running a 65 on it now. Works for me. Had a similar set up my old 2013 Enduro - pulled the stock 60mm (I think) stem off and ran a 70mm on it.

On the flip side thou, I sized up on my XC hard tale frame and then back down on the stem for that bike.

Run what works for you not what the the marketing department says you should (unless they pay your bills that is )

 

[Electric_City]

I previously had a Remedy since 2010. The geo of that bike was comfortable for me. I climbed steep, long grueling hills, rode down steep "walls" and rode off 7' drops once or twice with it when I was in better shape. I wanted to get a new bike but I wanted to feel comfortable on it. For whatever reason, Giant is the worst feeling bike.... I can't even explain my hatred for their fit/feel.
I looked around at geo charts and the Devinci Spartan was so close to the Remedy that it only made sense to get it. I did look at other bikes and geo charts too. But the Spartan was my choice since my Wilson is perfect for me on DH.

My old Remedy geo (17.5 m)
Spartan (m low setting)
Spartan (m hi setting)
Nomad (m)
Reign (m)
Enduro (m)

Geo listed in order above

Geo-----------------Reach-----------CS---------STA-----HTA-------SOH
Remedy (2010)--413mm--------435mm------73*------68*------745mm

Spartan (low) 413mm--------432mm-----72.4*---65.8*-----734mm What's not to like?
Spartan (hi) 419mm--------430mm-------73*----66.4*-----737mm
Spartan (L) 438mm--------430mm-------73*----66.4*-----752mm Hi setting.

Nomad 415mm---------433mm-----74.2*----65*------725mm Measured @160 fork?
(160-180 fork)

Reign !!!444mm!!!-------434mm------73*----65*-------714mm A lot longer reach!
Reign (small) !!!409mm!!!-------434mm------73*----65*-------716mm 2mm taller? 35mm shorter!

Enduro 421mm---------422mm------74.6*--65.5*---!!!776mm!!! Wow! That's tall!


The Small Reign was thrown in just to show what Giant recommends for me even though I'd never go that route.

Comparing the Remedy that I owned to the Spartan seems very similar. Even the Spartan to the Nomad is relatively close. We all know someone who LOVES their Nomad too. It was an easy decision to go with the Spartan to me. Fwiw, I ride it in "hi" so technically the reach is longer than the Remedy was.

 

[kidwoo]

@Udi- This isn't an argument, just my opinion...

Same thing to him.


I'll echo what he said though. I'm not dead fixed on 50mm but pretty much never have a reason go go outside of 45-55. My long winded way of saying the same thing (stems are not a fit component but a handling component)

http://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/guerrilla-gravity-badass-frame-manufacturer-in-colorado.251038/page-39#post-4163132


In one of the (many) syndicate videos of minnaar obsessing over bike bits, he puts stem length in terms of fork offset. There's something to that for sure. Which is why a lot of people end up running longer stems on their dh bikes than trail bikes. I've certainly done this. And it's not for 'reach'

 

[slyfink]

Same thing to him.


I'll echo what he said though. I'm not dead fixed on 50mm but pretty much never have a reason go go outside of 45-55. My long winded way of saying the same thing (stems are not a fit component but a handling component)

http://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/guerrilla-gravity-badass-frame-manufacturer-in-colorado.251038/page-39#post-4163132


In one of the (many) syndicate videos of minnaar obsessing over bike bits, he puts stem length in terms of fork offset. There's something to that for sure. Which is why a lot of people end up running longer stems on their dh bikes than trail bikes. I've certainly done this. And it's not for 'reach'

What's it for then? My trail bike started off with a 70mm stem. In trying to keep up with the Jonses, I put a 50mm stem on my trail bike, and found it hard to weight the front properly when climbing (it would wander up), and would wash out when cornering (I'm not sure if washout is the technical term, but the front wheel would push off to the outside of the turn, unless my body was really far forward, my belly almost touching the stem - which is a shitty way to ride fast on rough terrain). so I put a 60mm stem, and found the sweet spot.

Granted, this is a 2013 Ibis, which a really short, but I'm not ready to drop the coin to get a whole new bike at the moment. Now, if the industry had left good enough alone and not introduced new standards and new wheel sizes, I would probably be on a new frame already.

 

[jonKranked]

What's it for then? My trail bike started off with a 70mm stem. In trying to keep up with the Jonses, I put a 50mm stem on my trail bike, and found it hard to weight the front properly when climbing (it would wander up), and would wash out when cornering (I'm not sure if washout is the technical term, but the front wheel would push off to the outside of the turn, unless my body was really far forward, my belly almost touching the stem - which is a shitty way to ride fast on rough terrain). so I put a 60mm stem, and found the sweet spot.

Granted, this is a 2013 Ibis, which a really short, but I'm not ready to drop the coin to get a whole new bike at the moment. Now, if the industry had left good enough alone and not introduced new standards and new wheel sizes, I would probably be on a new frame already.

there's your problem. this is a dentist bike. it wasn't designed to actually be properly turned.

 

[kidwoo]

What's it for then?

stems are not a fit component but a handling component

 

[Gary]

I put a 50mm stem on my trail bike, and found it hard to weight the front properly when climbing (it would wander up), and would wash out when cornering (I'm not sure if washout is the technical term, but the front wheel would push off to the outside of the turn, unless my body was really far forward, my belly almost touching the stem - which is a shitty way to ride fast on rough terrain). so I put a 60mm stem, and found the sweet spot.

]10mm[

OMG DRAMA Much?