That's what I meant by the Camaro. The first version was Bumblebee, basically. Now they made it a 4 door and more practical, but I liked the Camaro version better.
Enertia Bike, the electric motorcycle
- Thread starter Toshi
- Start date
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- the b*tch fell off
The Jackal is awesome. Put 26" wheels on it and hit the trails!
The supermoto is $7200.
AC-M-48
Power:
48 Volts/ 33Ah
350 Amp AC Drive
Speed:
Geared to 60 mph
Brakes:
Dual Hydraulic Disks
with regenerative braking
Seat sits 36" from ground
Total Length: 78"
<edit> Here's the details on the GPR:
AC-GPR-48
Power: 18 Peak Horsepower 48 volts/44ah
350 amp AC drive
Speed: Geared to 62 mph
Range: 20+ miles
Brakes: Dual Hydraulic Disks with regenerative braking
Charge Time: 3.5 hours
Seat sits 30" from ground
Total Length: 74"
This model price: $7200
AC-GPR-84 model price: $8000
84V/80mph
The supermoto is $7200.
AC-M-48
Power:
48 Volts/ 33Ah
350 Amp AC Drive
Speed:
Geared to 60 mph
Brakes:
Dual Hydraulic Disks
with regenerative braking
Seat sits 36" from ground
Total Length: 78"
<edit> Here's the details on the GPR:
AC-GPR-48
Power: 18 Peak Horsepower 48 volts/44ah
350 amp AC drive
Speed: Geared to 62 mph
Range: 20+ miles
Brakes: Dual Hydraulic Disks with regenerative braking
Charge Time: 3.5 hours
Seat sits 30" from ground
Total Length: 74"
This model price: $7200
AC-GPR-84 model price: $8000
84V/80mph
i'm not sure what these homebrew companies do with regard to this, but in the production car world toyota handles all of the recycling, gratis:
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2006/fall/battery.html
toyota.com said:
Holy Crap!
I wonder the same thing, I think they transposed the charge time. The Hybrid Tech site states a 40+ mile range with 6 hour charge time. At a half ton, it's a beast. But it's a sexy beast!
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/products/motorcycles/chp_chopper
Performance
Speed: up to 50 mph (80 km/h)
Acceleration: 0-30 mph in 5.2 seconds
Range: 40+ miles (64+km)
Charge Time: 6 hours (110-120 VAC or 220-440 VAC) for full charge
Cycle Life: 1500+ full charges
Powertrain
Electric Motor: 72 V brush motor
Batteries: 42Ah maintenance-free lithium ion packs
Battery Management System: Proprietary HT design
Weights & Measures
Weight: 1100 lbs (499 kg)
Length: 112 inches (2845 mm)
Width: 34 inches (864 mm)
Height: 48 inches (1219 mm)
now that, is coolYou would want this one instead.
Reading about it and it seems to wheelie very easy because of the torque you get with the electric motor. I like it, but I can build one for half that price or less.now that, is cool
In theory, I love the idea of an off-grid motorcycle, but the Enertia just doesn't do it for me. To transcend yuppie toy status, it needs to effectively fill the void between riding my bike and borrowing a car, and for that it's missing crucial functionality:
- Where's my passenger's seat? A bicycle doesn't cut it for taking out a date or picking up a friend, but neither does this.
- How about storage? Panniers? A porteur rack? Anything for hauling a load when I'm too tired or not inclined to get sweaty?
- Longer range...I'm already willing to ride up to 30ish miles. I'd love to see that doubled.
- The price may accurately reflect their costs, but it still needs to come waaay down. I could have a custom steel frame built around a Stokemonkey
rolling on 38+ mm rims, with a Schmidt generator hub and Big Apples, and kitted out like a whizzer , for a third the price, with more style, less weight and probably better range (no highway use though.)
And as long as I'm dreaming, I'd love to see an enduro style e-bike with portable, deployable solar panels for untethered dirtroad touring or accessing a backcountry off-grid homestead.
I think these run around 8g's....
nope, try $10,500. lithium batteries are expensive, no way around it...
I think these run around 8g's....
http://members.forbes.com/fyi/2007/0917/156.html
passenger seat: acknowledged shortcoming (and limited by batteries -- you think they suck for one person, wait until you double the load...), and Brammo is working on it.In theory, I love the idea of an off-grid motorcycle, but the Enertia just doesn't do it for me. To transcend yuppie toy status, it needs to effectively fill the void between riding my bike and borrowing a car, and for that it's missing crucial functionality:
- Where's my passenger's seat? A bicycle doesn't cut it for taking out a date or picking up a friend, but neither does this.
- How about storage? Panniers? A porteur rack? Anything for hauling a load when I'm too tired or not inclined to get sweaty?
- Longer range...I'm already willing to ride up to 30ish miles. I'd love to see that doubled.
- The price may accurately reflect their costs, but it still needs to come waaay down. I could have a custom steel frame built around a Stokemonkey
rolling on 38+ mm rims, with a Schmidt generator hub and Big Apples, and kitted out like a whizzer , for a third the price, with more style, less weight and probably better range (no highway use though.)
And as long as I'm dreaming, I'd love to see an enduro style e-bike with portable, deployable solar panels for untethered dirtroad touring or accessing a backcountry off-grid homestead.
storage: yeah, i had the same thought. would be easy to rig up some panniers. non-issue.
longer range: while i'm certainly capable of riding a century, the point is that i'm not willing to ride 15 miles each way in to work. moreover, i simply don't have that kind of time: not only is riding significantly slower, but add in the time to change, +/- shower and it becomes non-feasible for a great many people.
a Stokemonkey setup is intriguing, but it's not the same class of vehicle. i realize that's your point, but if i'm going to be commuting on this in the dark after being up for 30 hours i want a real lighting system, and don't want to pedal. (sure, you could get more range... if you pedaled more.
)
another point with regard to the difference between a stokemonkey and a "legit" motorcycle: i would commute on a motorcycle if and only if i could wear full leathers (synthetic, whatever), boots, gloves, and a full-face helmet. i like my skin, and i like being protected by the elements. riding a bike in such an outfit wouldn't be possible.
The previous iteration came in at 6.5....I assumed it would go up a little at a time. Silly me!
I don't wear leather, too damn hot. But I do wear a Ti lined textile jacket and kevlar lined jeans. I wear my DH gloves unless it's cold, then I wear my heavy ones.
Light weight AND solid protection. I got all my gear on ebay (Icon, last seasons model) for $120. That's less than a friend paid for just his jacket.
the point is that you couldn't comfortably wear that gear while riding a bike (or moped, like the stokemonkey) over 20 miles...
I can't stand to wear pants on a bicycle
We have a winner!
<edit>Hydrogen/battery powered.
<edit>Hydrogen/battery powered.
I think thats called a steer.
I call BS on battery powered electric **** and the fact they are promoting a smaller eco footprint.
How many barrels of oil goes into all the plastic.
What are you going to do with those batteries when yo have to replace them every year? Probably just throw em in a dumpster.
Look at the lifespan of the batteries. Then look at how the companies that offer them also offer a recycle program. Then look at the cost saved, then consider trying to form an opinion.
I just think that's a sexy beast. It might be a serious reality in a year or two.cool. install a hydrogen station in my neighborhood and give me an MSRP and then we'll talk.
I found it while reading an article about Jay Leno's E85 Corvette (600hp). I want to build an E85 Cadillac CTS-V (same drivetrain as the Vette) now that there are 3 E85 stations within 10 miles of my house.
I've already formed an opinion, People actually have to use the recycling center. If people want to spend 15k on a plastic underpowered glorified scooter thats great, I'm all for funding technological improvements. Most people don't have a clue regarding the impact of batteries on the environment though.
I'll stick with my Suzuki 250, one 8 dollar tank of fuel per 1.5 weeks, I can carry a passenger, accelerate uphill. I'll burn a relatively small amount of petro over the life of the bike but I would be willing to bet it's environmental impact is much lower than any of these so called eco-bikes.
Evidently including you - have you looked into Toyota's extensive worldwide battery program before?
I don't know what types of batteries hybrids are using but Lithium Ion batteries can be fairly non toxic.
Cars haven't yet switched to Li - they should be very soon though.
Silicon nanowire batteries are the latest battery news.
You could always get the new Toshiba home fission reactor instead
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html
the studies have been done, and you are dead wrong.
http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/well_to_wheel.php
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/twentyfirstcenturycar.pdf <-- ugh, Tesla has taken it down for updates. let me try to find another host for it. ok, here's google's text-only cache: http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:ByK6R-aQmEMJ:www.teslamotors.com/display_data/twentyfirstcenturycar.pdf+tesla+21st+century+car&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a
read the Tesla 21st century car whitepaper for methodology. it suffices to say that "well to wheels" efficiency encompasses generating, converting, and transporting whatever powers the vehicle's propulsion system.
the first image is from Tesla, illustrating how the Tesla has higher well to wheels efficiency than a Prius, which is several times that of a car (and higher than that of your motorcycle).teslawhitepaperlinkedabove said:
the second image, same methodology but extended by Brammo to include the Enertia, shows the Enertia to double again the well to wheels efficiency of the Prius. the faint 0.86 and 1.9 for the standard car and motorcycle, respectively, represent projections for how efficient they could become with proper application of technology.
finally, not directly on the above topic but related (especially since both you and Westy brought up the fact that regular 4-stroke motorcycles get good fuel economy and are cheaper at the outset), the emissions regulations for motorcycles are much more lax than those for passenger cars. i don't have a hard citation for this info, but here it is
http://www.enertiabike.com/content/view/9/
Cliffs Notes: gas powered 4-stroke motorcycles have lower wells to wheels efficiency AND produce an order of magnitude more emissions per mile than a modern car. for me, they don't present a viable alternative -- i'd rather drive a prius than a SV650 given the above.
Seriously you want to compare a 100k car with a 15k electric moto? or a 1500.00 dollar 4stroke motorcycle. You should find something else to cut and paste to support that weak sauce. Don't believe everything a MFG constitutes as factual information. Plus what do those charts tell me? Whats the average motorcycle and what geographic area is the average calculated?
Some random quote about motorcyles and admissions don't bring anything to the debate, if you are making comparisons the data presented must represent the objects being compared.
Concerning the Enertiabike What's the service life of it's major components? I would hazard a guess this thing won't last 6-10 years before it needs to be scrapped, or at least a complete replacement of the major components related to the drivetrain$$$$. How much is it going to cost every three yrs to replace the batteries? Who's going to perform the service? It's hard enough to find someone I trust to work on my bicycle.
I still maintain that my 17yr old 4 stroke 250 over the term of it's usefull life leaves a smaller eco footprint than the scooter. Some random quote about motorcyles and emissions don't bring anything to the debate, if you are making comparisons, the data presented must represent the objects being compared.
My 250 also has the advantage of being a more practical vehicle. Due to it's low cost, the ability to carry a heavier load, and the availability of technicians to service it when it isn't working properly. Plus there is very little un-recyclable plastic on it, due to it being mostly metal it will be far easier to dispose of once it is no longer practical to maintain or overhaul. Currently my ride is 17yrs old and will go several more before I even have to have any sort of engine rebuild.
I don't need to know everything about electric vehicles out there to have formed a solid opinion that electric vehicles aren't the best solution especially when compared the American demographic that is traveling on roads designed for cars traveling 60+ MPH and wouldn't recycle a pop can if thier lives depended on it. Believe it or don't but batteries end up in the landfill every day, and If you live in WV you'll find them in our rivers too.
Some random quote about motorcyles and admissions don't bring anything to the debate, if you are making comparisons the data presented must represent the objects being compared.
Concerning the Enertiabike What's the service life of it's major components? I would hazard a guess this thing won't last 6-10 years before it needs to be scrapped, or at least a complete replacement of the major components related to the drivetrain$$$$. How much is it going to cost every three yrs to replace the batteries? Who's going to perform the service? It's hard enough to find someone I trust to work on my bicycle.
I still maintain that my 17yr old 4 stroke 250 over the term of it's usefull life leaves a smaller eco footprint than the scooter. Some random quote about motorcyles and emissions don't bring anything to the debate, if you are making comparisons, the data presented must represent the objects being compared.
My 250 also has the advantage of being a more practical vehicle. Due to it's low cost, the ability to carry a heavier load, and the availability of technicians to service it when it isn't working properly. Plus there is very little un-recyclable plastic on it, due to it being mostly metal it will be far easier to dispose of once it is no longer practical to maintain or overhaul. Currently my ride is 17yrs old and will go several more before I even have to have any sort of engine rebuild.
I don't need to know everything about electric vehicles out there to have formed a solid opinion that electric vehicles aren't the best solution especially when compared the American demographic that is traveling on roads designed for cars traveling 60+ MPH and wouldn't recycle a pop can if thier lives depended on it. Believe it or don't but batteries end up in the landfill every day, and If you live in WV you'll find them in our rivers too.
if you reread the quotes you'll see honda listed there, too. they're the only major manufacturers of true (as opposed to "mild" which just shut off engines instead of idling) hybrids at this time, iirc. besides, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence -- do your own homework if there's a specific manufacturer you're worried about.
i agree that it was a weak citation being from an interested party, and Brammo really should do a better job of citing their own references. i did 30 seconds of google hunting and came up with this, straight from the horse's mouth, the EPA:
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:7NauriYcR2MJ:www.epa.gov/otaq/////regs/nonroad/mcmarine/proposal/f02010.pdf+motorcycle+emissions&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a
epa.gov said:
how again did you come up with this 6-10 yr figure? who said anything about replacing batteries every 3 yrs? see a few posts up, where toyota reports that they haven't had to replace any batteries on Priuses (prii?) since their introduction in 2000. the duty cycle of hybrids vs. full electric is different, and so is Nimh vs. Li-ion but the point still stands.
while i agree that questions about service, availability and the like must be answered, pulling numbers out of your ass does not aid your point. (with regard to my own personal situation i'm hoping that i'll end up in seattle or portland, so in the worst case Brammo itself is in Ashland, oregon, not to mention that i'd have public transit to fall back upon.)
see above, with regard to motorcycle emissions standards dating from 1984: the objects being compared are equivalent (assuming a bike from now until then) since the standards haven't been changed. time to find a new point to harp on.
i won't argue that it's cheaper for you to ride your 250cc, or that you can do more with it. that's not my point. my point, instead, is that an electric motorcycle as exemplified by the Enertia is much more environmentally sound to run, taking into account power production, transport, everything.
Have you taken your bike through an emissions test? I know in Oregon, bikes aren't required to go through DEQ, so I have never tested my bike. But I wouldn't be surprised to see that my Toyota truck has a lot lower emissions than my bike.
Now you could say that since my bike gets 45mpg vs. the truck getting 17mpg that the bike is a better choice overall. But if I put more miles on the bike than the truck, which is doing more damage?
The point of this thread was that there are viable options. If someone is going to go through the effort and expense to purchase an electric vehicle, I would bet hard $$$ that they are going to recycle as well.
Now you could say that since my bike gets 45mpg vs. the truck getting 17mpg that the bike is a better choice overall. But if I put more miles on the bike than the truck, which is doing more damage?
The point of this thread was that there are viable options. If someone is going to go through the effort and expense to purchase an electric vehicle, I would bet hard $$$ that they are going to recycle as well.
with regard to the "3 yr" alleged battery life, Tesla for one claims their Li-ion pack will last 100,000 miles. i'm not sure what new devilry they've employed and how the Brammo Li-ion phosphate pack compares, but i think it's safe to assume that battery longevity will be superior to that of 1st generation Apple iPods
syadasti, good to know. do note that honda's Insight still beats the Prius in mileage, albeit at the price of practicality. i'm eagerly awaiting the Chevy Volt, too, assuming that's the plug-in you're mentioning.
down the road it'd be nice to have a 1.5 vehicle household:
2 commuters, me 'n the gf
Chevy Volt or plug-in Prius whenever that should emerge from Toyota for her to commute in and for the tasks that require cargo room or long distances
electric motorcycle for me to commute in and do errands about town
Flexcar/Zipcar membership for the odd times when two cars are necessary
syadasti, good to know. do note that honda's Insight still beats the Prius in mileage, albeit at the price of practicality. i'm eagerly awaiting the Chevy Volt, too, assuming that's the plug-in you're mentioning.
down the road it'd be nice to have a 1.5 vehicle household:
2 commuters, me 'n the gf
Chevy Volt or plug-in Prius whenever that should emerge from Toyota for her to commute in and for the tasks that require cargo room or long distances
electric motorcycle for me to commute in and do errands about town
Flexcar/Zipcar membership for the odd times when two cars are necessary
The Vue plugin is due in 2009:
http://suv-buster.blogspot.com/2007/09/2009-saturn-vue-plug-in-hybrid-is-go.html
very cool, even if its range is only 10 miles on the batteries alone. the 45 mile battery-only range forecast for the Chevy Volt (and, not incidentally, for the Enertia bike) seems much more livable day to day...