Evil Bikes 2008
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you just said it buddy, ultimate all mountain bike for me with a 36, hammerschmidt, all x.o and thompson...sex
HA is planned for 68° w/ a 511mm fork length (140mm Fox 32). Eff TT's will be 560/585/605/630mm. BB still nice and low at 330mm (w/ a 2.1" Highroller).
The dropouts are pretty much the same as the old DOC. The Faction will be available in three sizes; Regular, Long, X-Long. It will also have ISCG05 tabs that are not shown in the pic. Headtube is Campy style integrated.
The Sect is planned to have an ISCG05 mount.
-ska todd
good call on the drops. Sliding verts are really the best set up going.
Thank you! I'm really curious now to have more information regarding weight and goemetry.
any teaser's of the 'sect' todd? i am hoping it will NOT be an internal headset but something is telling me it will...can you confirm or deny?
i see evil/hammerschmidt in my future :evil:
i see evil/hammerschmidt in my future :evil:
I can't wait to see the fullys!
Imho the over-engineered sliding dropouts don't make a lot of sense on a DJ bike. For a hardtail meant for DS/4X/etc, a vertical dropout option makes sense, but for strictly DJ (or park or street), very few riders use derailleurs.
It is detrimental to the bike's aesthetics and would be a deal breaker for me, considering there are already about a dozen similar HTs on the market.
-r
Imho the over-engineered sliding dropouts don't make a lot of sense on a DJ bike. For a hardtail meant for DS/4X/etc, a vertical dropout option makes sense, but for strictly DJ (or park or street), very few riders use derailleurs.
It is detrimental to the bike's aesthetics and would be a deal breaker for me, considering there are already about a dozen similar HTs on the market.
-r
That doesn't make any sense at all. You won't buya bike simply because it has sliding dropouts? What monsterous disadvantage do these dropouts have that would make you avoid the bike completely?
While I don't mean to single you out (I really don't, so dont take what I'm saying personally) that really is an excellent example of the kind of comments that much cause bike companies to just put thier heads on their desks and sigh. They just can't win. Its a continuously losing battle.
Look at what Evil did. They posted up that they are gonna make some bikes. THey showed a pic of the DH bike as a bit of a teaser to get some interest. They fill people in on whos onboard witht he company, both administratively and sponsored. What do they get? A bunch of half-baked ideas about how a bike wll perform, based on some sketchy-ass, over contrasted rendering that doesn't even show the linkage. They get flayed for not posting pics of the real bikes. They get **** for sliding dropouts. They get crap for integrated headsets. THey are probably going to get blamed for WMD's any minute now. I might blame them for the gas I am currently suffering with.
Point is, its amazing that companies take the time at all to post on the forums, with all the headaches that come with it. I'm not chastising, not at all. But it sure does make me smile picturing the faces of some manufacturers when they read these responses.
While I don't mean to single you out (I really don't, so dont take what I'm saying personally) that really is an excellent example of the kind of comments that much cause bike companies to just put thier heads on their desks and sigh. They just can't win. Its a continuously losing battle.
Look at what Evil did. They posted up that they are gonna make some bikes. THey showed a pic of the DH bike as a bit of a teaser to get some interest. They fill people in on whos onboard witht he company, both administratively and sponsored. What do they get? A bunch of half-baked ideas about how a bike wll perform, based on some sketchy-ass, over contrasted rendering that doesn't even show the linkage. They get flayed for not posting pics of the real bikes. They get **** for sliding dropouts. They get crap for integrated headsets. THey are probably going to get blamed for WMD's any minute now. I might blame them for the gas I am currently suffering with.
Point is, its amazing that companies take the time at all to post on the forums, with all the headaches that come with it. I'm not chastising, not at all. But it sure does make me smile picturing the faces of some manufacturers when they read these responses.
@rpet
So you don't like the bike - great, you're entitled to your opinion. Evil's not trying to please everyone. Others do see the value of sliding vertical dropouts. I have the old sovereign... it's nice. The sov is also more than just a DJ bike. The aesthetics comment made me chuckle a bit.
@dropmachine
When you try to please everyone, you're bound to fail.
So you don't like the bike - great, you're entitled to your opinion. Evil's not trying to please everyone. Others do see the value of sliding vertical dropouts. I have the old sovereign... it's nice. The sov is also more than just a DJ bike. The aesthetics comment made me chuckle a bit.
@dropmachine
When you try to please everyone, you're bound to fail.
Evil and DW (no offence mate) are the undisputed masters of building pre release hype over products and bikes. They know full well that releasing ****ty pre production renders produces endless pages of ****ty comments. Its deliberate and they love it cause it creates interest and generates free advertising.
So don't feel sorry for them, if they kept quiet and just released stuff they would fly under the radar a lot more and avoid the pages of speculation but I doubt its what they really want.
So don't feel sorry for them, if they kept quiet and just released stuff they would fly under the radar a lot more and avoid the pages of speculation but I doubt its what they really want.
Well rpet made a valid comment, that is the DJ bike not the sov. I have a DOC and the dropouts are great, but if evil are trying to tap the 'pure' Dj market maybe horizontals would be better? But on the otherhand, i like to think when you buy an evil you get a bike that displays that little bit extra engineering and smart ideas, that aren't just added for the sake of it.
The fact is evil bikes have a buzz because they are ****in nice bikes, so threads are going to have a lot of people commenting, a lot of nit-picking comments and a lot of stupid-ass comment. That's the internet, that's the majority of the internet, give someone a voice and they're gonna use it...
The fact is evil bikes have a buzz because they are ****in nice bikes, so threads are going to have a lot of people commenting, a lot of nit-picking comments and a lot of stupid-ass comment. That's the internet, that's the majority of the internet, give someone a voice and they're gonna use it...
Hi dump - I mentioned the Sovereign (a 4yo "do it all" trail bike) nowhere, so I don't really understand your response to my initial post. I remember wanting a Sovereign back when they came out. I never rode one but they looked sweet on the internet.
Dropmachine - No I wouldn't buy this frame for my DJ uses, given that there are cleaner-designed (ie simpler/prettier/better and probably lighter) frames already on the market. Perhaps DS racers will love it, though. Bike companies seeking to sell and market their products via the Internet often receive comments/criticisms/kudos from potential customers in this manner, so get off my back. I would love to see Evil come to the DJ discipline with relevant new designs. My point here is that sliding verts are a fix for a problem that doesn't exist in the DJ world.
Dropmachine - No I wouldn't buy this frame for my DJ uses, given that there are cleaner-designed (ie simpler/prettier/better and probably lighter) frames already on the market. Perhaps DS racers will love it, though. Bike companies seeking to sell and market their products via the Internet often receive comments/criticisms/kudos from potential customers in this manner, so get off my back. I would love to see Evil come to the DJ discipline with relevant new designs. My point here is that sliding verts are a fix for a problem that doesn't exist in the DJ world.
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Aside from the versatility of have a derailleur option, sliding drops are IMO better than horizontal because the brake moves too and is always properly aligned...just sayin'. If you don't use a brake, fine, but then you'll probably be complaining about the cable guides too.
lets get the record straight, i wasnt 'bashing' internal headsets, i would just like to run my king if i were to buy an evil fully...a zero stack is always nice i just like king...
keep the good vibes rolling in this thread im tired of negative crap...
keep the good vibes rolling in this thread im tired of negative crap...
Yep, me buying a hardtail is a compromise. I wanted a slalom hardtail that I could DJ. I ended up with a Chameleon with 16.5 inch chainstays.
If Evil can sell a bike with adjustable chainstays from 16.5 to 15.5 it would no longer be a compromise to use properly for both slalom and DJ.
I need new ball joints in my truck...I'm calling Evil Bikes first thing in the morning to have them explain why this is happening to me..WHY ME!!That doesn't make any sense at all. You won't buya bike simply because it has sliding dropouts? What monsterous disadvantage do these dropouts have that would make you avoid the bike completely?
While I don't mean to single you out (I really don't, so dont take what I'm saying personally) that really is an excellent example of the kind of comments that much cause bike companies to just put thier heads on their desks and sigh. They just can't win. Its a continuously losing battle.
Look at what Evil did. They posted up that they are gonna make some bikes. THey showed a pic of the DH bike as a bit of a teaser to get some interest. They fill people in on whos onboard witht he company, both administratively and sponsored. What do they get? A bunch of half-baked ideas about how a bike wll perform, based on some sketchy-ass, over contrasted rendering that doesn't even show the linkage. They get flayed for not posting pics of the real bikes. They get **** for sliding dropouts. They get crap for integrated headsets. THey are probably going to get blamed for WMD's any minute now. I might blame them for the gas I am currently suffering with.
Point is, its amazing that companies take the time at all to post on the forums, with all the headaches that come with it. I'm not chastising, not at all. But it sure does make me smile picturing the faces of some manufacturers when they read these responses.
I think you should blame it on the Imperial SLI need new ball joints in my truck...I'm calling Evil Bikes first thing in the morning to have them explain why this is happening to me..WHY ME!!
No pics right now but, I will say that we are leaning toward a tapered headtube set-up that will use an external lower cup w/ a zerostack upper. This will afford the broadest choice of forks (140mm to 160mm) w/o greatly affecting geometry while also keeping bar heights low. So, I gather you can still run 1/2 a King headset if you wanted to.
As I discussed in the bikeradar piece, Evil is all about "Voice & Choice". If you choose to run the bike as a singlespeed, so be it. If you choose to run a RD you can too. The Evil dropouts allow a wide range of use and have proven to be really useful to a lot of riders. Perhaps we just need to make a driveside "nub" w/o the RD hanger to keep some people feeling more "core" dirt jumpy? The HVS dropouts maintains adjustment of the disc brake when changing CS length.
Bottom line, there are lots of great bikes on the market. Pick the one that suits your needs the best.
We'll come pretty close Jeremy...how's 15.7 to 16.4?
-ska todd
I'm blaming them for the fact that 90% of the cars on the road aren't electric or hybrid.
I'm blaming them for the Tacoma Narrows Bridge as well.
I might be completely missing something but are you talking about one of those tapered steerer designs ala trek? If you are PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DONT
I would much rather see a full 1.5 setup than that...For some reason i am guessing this isnt the intention though...1.5 would even be cool it is light as well, just ship it with reduction cups
Tapered headtubes are actually pretty danged cool! When 1.5 first came around in 02-03 dw and I both said to Manitou "why not just taper the steerer?" With tapered you get many of the benefits of 1.5" but w/o much of the excess weight; lower weight upper cups, lighter stems, lighter steerers. You can also fit it in much cleaner with top tube profiles. 1.5" for XC and all-mtn bikes is pretty much like going to 11.
-ska todd
-ska todd
I just hate the compatibility issues none of my current forks will work with that, and your options are really chopped down. I think when people think of evil they think of no no-nsense builds, i understand there are advantages with weight and what not but man it just seems like such a roadie thing.
personally i'm going to stick with standard head tubes...the last thing i need to introduce is more complication around standards and buy more stuff that probably wont be around that long.
1.5 was great, not sure this one will stand the test of time but who knows...
personally i'm going to stick with standard head tubes...the last thing i need to introduce is more complication around standards and buy more stuff that probably wont be around that long.
1.5 was great, not sure this one will stand the test of time but who knows...
Unless all of your current forks are 1.5, all you'll need is a reducer for the bottom cup.
Any 1.125" fork or any 1.5" --> 1.125" fork will fit on a tapered headtube frame. Dedicated 1.5" forks will not fit but, in general not a lot of people are using 1.5" steerers for 140mm and 160mm forks (and I wouldn't advocate use of a 180m fork on a 140mm frame in most situations anyway).
Additionally, by using an internal lower reducer cup with a 160mm fork you can maintain about the same a-to-c as with 140mm forks so that BB heights are not compromised much OR use the internal cup vs external cup to micromanage your BB height/HTA until your heart is content!
All of the parts we're planning to use are standard issue; zerostack upper cups are used on a bagillion bikes from all sorts of manufacturers. 1.5" lower cups are also rather common place. I guess it's a mash-up of headsets but nothing all new.
Since it is being used by both the road side and the mountain bike side it has a lot better chance of stickin' round than does a 1.5" headtube. Tapered pretty much negates the need for full 1.5" on anything but dedicated freeride or DH rigs. The selection of stems available for 1.125" also entirely trumps 1.5" for weights, lengths, rises, colors, and price.
-ska todd
i stand completely corrected...see msg boards are good for something other than criticism...
so i can use my existing fork (1 1/8) with the tapered? If so i see your point that they are pretty rad, i had no idea...sorta dismissed them right off the bat.
oster_oops:
so i can use my existing fork (1 1/8) with the tapered? If so i see your point that they are pretty rad, i had no idea...sorta dismissed them right off the bat.
oster_oops:
Absolutely! You could use your 1 1/8 with a lower 1.5 external cup and a reducing crown race (King makes this among others) or you could use an internal 1.5 cup (e13 or the like) on the bottom for a lower stack. Both great options to fine tune your front end!
What is the weight difference between the following?
Headtube: Tapered vs 1.5" vs 1.125"
Steertube: Tapered vs. 1.5" vs. 1.125"
It can't be enough to justify the extra cost of manufacturing the tapered crap.
Just make the headtubes 1.5" and let the user decided what size steertube they want to use.
Headtube: Tapered vs 1.5" vs 1.125"
Steertube: Tapered vs. 1.5" vs. 1.125"
It can't be enough to justify the extra cost of manufacturing the tapered crap.
Just make the headtubes 1.5" and let the user decided what size steertube they want to use.
1.5 headtubes suck. At least the topcups do.
All you damn luddites need to step in line. Product managers adding tapered headtubes does nothing to hinder anyone, except for the 2% of consumers who have full 1.5" forks.
From a structural standpoint a tapered headtube is better, as you get super ****ty weld area with a reasonable sized tt and a fulll 1.5" headtube.
Any bike designed around 140mm plus forks that uses normally drawn round tubes can and should have a tapered headtube. It's not about the fork, it's about making an efficient structure.
There are plenty of well designed long travel forks (and road forks for that matter) that are plenty stiff under braking with a 1.125" steer tube. But that doesn't mean there aren't still benefits to the tapered head tubes.
All you damn luddites need to step in line. Product managers adding tapered headtubes does nothing to hinder anyone, except for the 2% of consumers who have full 1.5" forks.
From a structural standpoint a tapered headtube is better, as you get super ****ty weld area with a reasonable sized tt and a fulll 1.5" headtube.
Any bike designed around 140mm plus forks that uses normally drawn round tubes can and should have a tapered headtube. It's not about the fork, it's about making an efficient structure.
There are plenty of well designed long travel forks (and road forks for that matter) that are plenty stiff under braking with a 1.125" steer tube. But that doesn't mean there aren't still benefits to the tapered head tubes.
For the HT, the weight can dramatically swing depending on HT length, HS style (traditional v zerostack v integrated), amount of machining, etc. In general, the traditional HT will be on the lowend of the weight war with a traditional 1.5 being on the top end.
The lowest system weight will probably be won by the internal with the zerostack close behind it. The full 1.5R external headsets here get trounced as they are over 2X the weight of a standard 1.125" headset and 2.75X the weight of a zerostack 1.125".
For the headsets:
integrated headsets ~50g
zerostack 73-77g
traditional 1.125" 93-99g
Trek style zerostack tapered ~95g
zerostack upper/external lower tapered ~ 120g
zerostack 1.5R ~ 140g
full 1.5 ~ 175-230g
external 1.5R ~ 200-230g
For the forks, on the 140mm style forks the weight savings for 2010 is being billed at 20-25g for tapered vs 1.125".
So, I reckon that the oh approx 20-ish grams gained by the headset gets washed in the fork but then gets eaten back up with the headtube to some degree. But, with that you get a more structurally sound, more adaptable, and badder ass looking bike.
-ska todd
This is exactly how I just built up my new Nomad. With a tapered fork and an e.13 reducer up top and a King 1.5 bottom half. That way I have the strength of 1.5 where it's needed, on the bottom half, and I was able to use a low stack-height top half with a normal stem and the appropriate sized bearings for my application. I could still go lower up top if I decide to but I haven't even ridden the bike in the dirt yet (just built it) so I'm not sure where I'll want the bars exactly.
Attachments
And forcing consumer to buy 2 headsets at the very least.....
Like so many other bike industry 'standards' 20% of the mfg are on board and screaming about all the supposed 'benefits'...while the other 80% are sitting back for years to see if the new standard catches on. All the while the consumer gets screwed. No proplem for you guys however, as you dont pay for day to day bike parts...
For 99% or consumers, it is not a beneficial trade off... Saving 50g yet getting tied into odd, non compatible parts (for the most part not knowing you bought into a new proprietary 'standard' that may very well not get adopted and leave you high and dry) that will cost double as a replacement down the road, or might just not be available again..leaving consumers SOL.
You cannot currently buy a headset to put a straight 1 1/8 steer tube in a tapered head tube frame..nor can you readily buy a tapered steer tube fork..... until they are wide spread, tapered head tubes should remain on paper only!!!
Step down from your PM platform and look at how these changes impact the average guy now..not what may or may not (based on history, more likel not) materialize sometime down the road.
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Nah, Trek had a kit from the start for their Remedy owners so that wasn't necessary. Any Trek dealer could order it.
Wait, so you went with a sliding vertical dropout allow you to run a bike as a SS or as a geared bike, and has the added advantage of adjustable chainstay length so you can get the CS's as short as possible depending on your rim/tire choice, with the only downside being... aesthetics?
WTF were you thinking??!!!/!?
lthumbsdown:oster_oops:
perhaps some people need to just bust out a hacksaw and a sharpie if they care that muchWait, so you went with a sliding vertical dropout allow you to run a bike as a SS or as a geared bike, and has the added advantage of adjustable chainstay length so you can get the CS's as short as possible depending on your rim/tire choice, with the only downside being... aesthetics?
WTF were you thinking??!!!/!?
Ok, so after your pretty much spot-on ripping of Chris King headsets in an earlier thread, you turn around and essentially make the same argument against internal and tapered style headsets that they've been barking for the past five years!
The only semi-valid reason I see for sticking with standard external 1.125" headtubes on aluminum or carbon frames is so people can run King or crankbrothers headsets. For fans of FSA or Cane Creek you can pick any standard you want because chances are, they both helped make the standard and the make a compatible product.
You can currently purchase tapered headsets (as others have noted). For 2010 I also know that headset manufacturers will be making a variety of tapered options for OEM and aftermarket. Aside from the Trek style tapered headset, none of the tapered headsets required new tooling. It's just juggling combos of upper and lower cup assemblies into new sku's. Pretty simple!
(I have heard chatter of vendors' plans to simply sell upper or lower assemblies separately so people can mix match to their particular headtube permutation.)
While a smaller percentage of manufacturers currently make tapered compatible frames, three of the four biggest brands do - Specialized, Trek, & Giant (Scott might but I only quickly glanced at their site). Globally, this probably represents a good 1/2 of the complete bikes sold. For 09 & 010 there are a bunch more small-mid sized mfgrs coming on-line with tapered frames. I'd gather for highend frames/bikes that tapered headtubes will be common fare by the 011 model year.
All of the fork vendors either have tapered options or will be offering them in 2010.
-ska todd
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You can indeed buy tapered head tube headsets in one package, from the fine folks at Cane Creek. Their Frustum headset is most definitely available directly from them, and FOB taiwain in a few different flavors. If I wanted to spec dual external tapered headtubes, Chris King will gladly sell me one of each cup (as they will any bike shop that calls them). I can call e.13 and buy all the reducer cups I want, and stick half in the bottom of a headset, and cane creek will sell me the i bearings for the top cub a full 1.5" zs lower cup sepearately, as they would any bikeshop on earth. Every 1.5" headset that exists already has the ability to run with 1.125" steer tubes, it's a simple matter of changing the crown race and top cup.
There is nothing "new" about the tapered headtubes. Adding them only effects people with 1.5" forks, and except for Shermans, every 1.5 fork that has ever been made is new enough that a tapered steer tube crown/stanchion assembly is available for it.
These days, if you make an integrated headset frame, you ship the frame with a headset for the most part. Evil, or I, can pretty much send the consumer about a bagillion different choices and options of headsets, and the tapered IS zerostack headsets give the consumers more options than ever before.
Nothing but positives. To hear some people talk about this you'd think the subject was racial integration, not headset integration...
Prime idea Piper.
Hear that Todd? Be innovative, and include an Evil Hacksaw and an Evil market with all the frames.
Hear that Todd? Be innovative, and include an Evil Hacksaw and an Evil market with all the frames.
I'm still not hearing much of an argument as to why these are needed/wanted on a DJ bike.Wait, so you went with a sliding vertical dropout allow you to run a bike as a SS or as a geared bike, and has the added advantage of adjustable chainstay length so you can get the CS's as short as possible depending on your rim/tire choice, with the only downside being... aesthetics?
WTF were you thinking??!!!/!?
If the frame is actually a hardtail meant to appeal to DS racers and height-challenged XC riders, possibly the CS "adjustment" and derailleur tab are necessary.
I suggest offering a very short and light track end version of the frame with a CS 15-15.5" if you want to seriously take aim at the DJ (and urban and park) market. The sliding dropout version can be used for DS racing and by riders who want a very short "do it all" geared frame with a long chainstay.
cheers.
-r