Israel's Crimes Against Humanity

ohio · Jan 9, 2009

Samirol said:
The truce was going pretty well until Israel attacked on November 4th, but like most things it isn't cut and dry Israel=bad Palestinians=good, but a majority of the blame lies on Israel and the United States.

Am I incorrect in understanding the sequence of events to be:
- Hamas announces they will not continue to honor the cease-fire.
- Rocket launches escalate in number significantly from the lull period
- Israel begins attacks on November 4th

Look, I'm generally ANTI-Israel (or at least left of "pro-Israel" folks), but you seem to be pathologically biased against the facts.

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

TheMontashu said:
You sir are full of ****, Israel has the best defensive tank on the planet, they also have some of the most advanced rifles on the planet. Not to mention the fact that intel does all kinda of military development in Israel, much of our high tech weaponry is being designed by American companies by Israeli designers.

No, that currently is the Leopard 2A6HEL, and the Galil is hardly, if at all, in use with combat units anymore.

TheMontashu said:
and Israel was the name given to the name of it in the Torah, THOUSANDS of years before Rome had control of it. It was called Israel before Palestine sir, again you really need to not argue Israel and the bible with me, I am a good Jew and have read the Torah several times and have been to enough religious school to have a damn good understanding of the history of the region going back that far.

You're right about it being an older name. Although, that don't deprive that area from also being rightfully called Palestine, specially considering that it's been in use for the last 2000 years, and that Palestinians have an equal historical right to that same area just like the Jews have.

bohorec said:
Heh I always thought Israel destroyed EU taxpayers investments.

Your post shows very clearly that you are greek :biggrin:

I'll explain. During our travelling trough south of our continent we came to surprising conclusions. Spain is full of islamic monuments, (and they care for them) while on the other hand there is not a single trace of islamic presence in Greece. See? It's all about perception.

Forgot about those lost investments....bastards. They should be made to pay it back, with interest, and fined for destroying civilan property that has been paid for by others.

Well indeed, we have suffered our own catastrophy so that probably makes it easier for me to understand and have empathy. Actually it's called The Catastrophy in Greek, which means the same as Nackba, and in essence the same thing happened; A foreign force occupied Greek territories in the Pontus, Constantinopel and surrounding Thrace, Asia Minor and other parts in current Turkey after they had lived there for thousands of years, way longer than the occupiers, and then throughout the 20th century millions were "removed" though etnic clensing.

Naah, I think you just missed them.. I'm from the capitol of Macedonia Thessaloniki, or Solon as you call it, and from walking distance from my mothers neighbourood the house of Kemal Ataturk still stands together with other old houses that are protected by the government, and the place is called for the Turkish Quaters (or similar).

http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D313E603BF9486D4371D209A85B5E49F32C4

2-300m from my dads old doorway lies Rotonda, an old churche later turned into Mosque with a minaret added. The country is full of old Turkish stuff and naturally we have loads of Turkish words in our language; samatá, ntoulápi, tsóban/os (like you :biggrin: ), as well as sharing a lot of our cultural stuff with them; baklavá, toursí, you get the picture (and I bet you use those words too). We actually eat, live, and breath the Ottomans today, and all our bitches love to dance tsiftetélli (we even call those tsiftitélli places for "skiládika, doghouses, and achoúr/ia).... :clue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotunda_of_St._George

Relating a bit to the thread: Thessaloniki was the largest Jewish city in the world for at least two centuries, often called "Mother of Israel".

drkenan · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
, he hosted web pages for a little outfit called - and i hope i pronounce this correctly - "hamas"

How does that even remotely justify Israel killing two CHILDREN while playing on their roof after being cooped up in their house due to this wrongful occupation?

Are you saying they were targeting Mr. Camerman but instead blowing a family's house to bits (again - with 2 children playing on the roof) with an unmanned drone is acceptable practice?

TheMontashu · Jan 9, 2009

rockwool said:
You're right about it being an older name. Although, that don't deprive that area from also being rightfully called Palestine, specially considering that it's been in use for the last 2000 years, and that Palestinians have an equal historical right to that same area just like the Jews have.

And again I totally agree (see my support for a Palestinian state) Transcend just likes to make stupid arguments like that, and I was just pointing out that not only is it a dumb meaningless point, that he was wrong.

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

TheMontashu said:
And again I totally agree (see my support for a Palestinian state) Transcend just likes to make stupid arguments like that, and I was just pointing out that not only is it a dumb meaningless point, that he was wrong.

Triggered as you probably were, you came out a bit unreasonable..

blue · Jan 9, 2009

Samirol said:
Main export partners: US 38.4%

Main import partners: US 12.4%

His point that the economy of Israel relies very heavily on the US is still valid.

This was indeed my point. I'm well aware of Israel's shabby weapons dev industry and branches of Silicon Valley firms located within it.

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

blue said:
This was indeed my point. I'm well aware of Israel's shabby weapons dev industry and branches of Silicon Valley firms located within it.

I belive taht the EU is Israels biggest trading partner. Somehow the CIA world factbook fails to mention that (where I belive samirol got his info from).

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

drkenan said:
How does that even remotely justify Israel killing two CHILDREN while playing on their roof after being cooped up in their house due to this wrongful occupation?

Are you saying they were targeting Mr. Camerman but instead blowing a family's house to bits (again - with 2 children playing on the roof) with an unmanned drone is acceptable practice?

Also take into consideration that that was a presission guided weapon and that therefore the targeting was deliberate. First time misstake, or purpousefull aiming for terror reason?

Compare that to Qassam rockets that have no aiming capability at all, and mortars that do but still need a forward observer to call in X and Y of the fire. That's not possible through the other side of a prison wall.

Add the UN school were 20 kids died. Terror to quech the fighting spirit of the Palestinians?

Add the killing of the UN truckdriver yesterday by Israeli troops wich had the effect that the supplies were stopped. Who could have guessed that that would happen? :rolleyes:

Add the 4 UN observers that were killed in the Hizbollah war of 2006 so that they couldn't be able to report the comming terror of the Israelis with undisputed questionability.

Add that the Israelis have always refused UN observers in the Occupied territories.

Add that the Israelis are refusing all media but Al Jazeera to report from the occupied territories. Or rather, limiting journalists.

There is a continuous pattern of humanrights violations and silencing of dissent and information.

$tinkle · Jan 9, 2009

drkenan said:
How does that even remotely justify Israel killing two CHILDREN while playing on their roof after being cooped up in their house due to this wrongful occupation?

Are you saying they were targeting Mr. Camerman but instead blowing a family's house to bits (again - with 2 children playing on the roof) with an unmanned drone is acceptable practice?

ummm...if you had followed the posts, you would (hopefully) arrive that i was pointing out the dead are being used for propaganda.

rockwool said:
Also take into consideration that that was a presission guided weapon and that therefore the targeting was deliberate. First time misstake, or purpousefull aiming for terror reason?

guidance system != targeting civilians, which is hamas' m.o.

rockwool said:
Compare that to Qassam rockets that have no aiming capability at all

neither to bullets; are they too just a nuisance?

rockwool said:
Add the UN school were 20 kids died. Terror to quech the fighting spirit of the Palestinians?

did you miss that part about rockets being fired from at or very near the school, & the terrorists (i.e., valid military targets) took cover there?

rockwool said:
Add the killing of the UN truckdriver yesterday by Israeli troops wich had the effect that the supplies were stopped. Who could have guessed that that would happen?

i only heard just a snippet of this unfortunate event. trigger happy idf? probably.

rockwool said:
Add the 4 UN observers that were killed in the Hizbollah war of 2006 so that they couldn't be able to report the comming terror of the Israelis with undisputed questionability.

again with this.
hezbollah was believe to be holed up there, that is why it was targeted.
i write "believed" b/c they were observed firing from positions only meters away & were observed to take shelter there.

rockwool said:
Add that the Israelis have always refused UN observers in the Occupied territories.

don't know about this. not shocking.

rockwool said:
Add that the Israelis are refusing all media but Al Jazeera to report from the occupied territories. Or rather, limiting journalists.

ibid

rockwool said:
There is a continuous pattern of humanrights violations and silencing of dissent and information.

maybe if israel pulled out from its outposts & settlements in the west bank violence would abate.

drkenan · Jan 9, 2009

It's a clusterfvck all around.

It's also slightly bothersome that we have no say as to where our tax dollars are spent.

I can't remember the circumstances, but for some reason I was watching Fox News during the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah conflict and an American citizen called in from Beirut and started telling them how Israel was killing civilians and children and her life was in danger. I just remember whatever pundit they had on air said "you don't know the full story" and then hung up on her. I wish that I could find that on youtube.

But that just goes to show you the type of news that we get.

Transcend · Jan 9, 2009

bohorec said:
Unlike Canada Israel is pretty much capable of self defence.

Not without US weapons they couldn't. Not a chance. A sweet tank and some Uzis isn't going to cut it against an airforce, any airforce.

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

Here are a few interesting parts of an analysis from another forum:

Another important factor is the fact that Israel wishes to wipe the memories of its less-than-satisfactory performance against Hezbollah in 2006. An acquaintance of mine who was recently discharged as a sniper from the Golani Brigade informed me that IDF high command made some adjustments since the 2006 conflict. They hope to give ground troops, especially the infantry corps, combat experience without exposing to dangerous opponent such as Hezbollah.

a following question:

Giving the infantry combat experience like that is too cynical for my imagination, but non the less interesting view from the Golani (or had it been leaked all the way down to a sniper?)

the reply:

There is an official directive from IDF High Command to do so and it's no secret. Since 2006, active duty infantry brigades will be deployed to a combat zone regardless of which command the region falls under. All regular brigades of the Israeli Infantry Corps have arrived in Gaza to reinforce the Givati, Golani from Northern Command, Tzanchanim and Kfir from Central Command. The guy I know held the rank of sergeant in the Golani and served as a sniper during the 2006 war against Hezbollah.

The way I look at it, they might want to take another crack at Hezbollah sometime in the future. It's not entirely impossible to imagine they want to give the troops some combat experience against Hamas in preparation for that.

Food for thought of why this is going on right now.

Defenestrated · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
guidance system != targeting civilians, which is hamas' m.o.

yet Israel has killed significantly more civilians with its "military" action.

I don't care if you aren't targeting them, killing civilians is killing civilians. They don't come back to life after you are done bombing, they stay dead.

bohorec · Jan 9, 2009

Transcend said:
Not without US weapons they couldn't. Not a chance. A sweet tank and some Uzis isn't going to cut it against an airforce, any airforce.

While Israel is heavily dependant on US weapons, they are also capable of developing their own weapons. They made few capable planes, based on french technology. Unlike their opponents they actively take a part in development of their weapons, they are not just end users of equipment.

For example:

Lavi was canceled in 1987 as a result of growing American concerns about the cost of the project, as well as from concerns that Lavi fighters would threaten the export market of the US F-16 and F-18.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/weapons.htm

I'm trying to say that they would have their airforce with or without USA, even more, I think they would live much better without that "help" (Rockwool stated it pretty good), however that is not important, because no weapon can solve that conflict. Israel is hostage of it's own retarded politics against Palestinians and USA carries a major part with its support to Israel. Only the extremists on both sides benefit from the situation.

Spiegel has some good interviews about the topic:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,599142,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,599459,00.html

With the help of US weapons Israel become a puppet state with double standards for people (friend who worked there was surprised to found out that they have different wages for the same job, one class for israelis and other for palestinians).

$tinkle · Jan 9, 2009

Defenestrated said:
yet Israel has killed significantly more civilians with its "military" action.

I don't care if you aren't targeting them, killing civilians is killing civilians. They don't come back to life after you are done bombing, they stay dead.

if you aren't willing to acknowledge varying degrees of judicial action for events resulting in death, then you have long disposed of your usefulness to reason.

you do understand the difference between murder & manslaughter (or negligent homicide), right? at worst, the idf is engaged in depraved indifference, which is demonstrably shared by those militant elements of hamas who both fire rockets & hide among civilians.

if you are a subscriber to clarity, you must concede this point.

bohorec · Jan 9, 2009

rockwool said:
Naah, I think you just missed them.. I'm from the capitol of Macedonia Thessaloniki, or Solon as you call it, and from walking distance from my mothers neighbourood the house of Kemal Ataturk still stands together with other old houses that are protected by the government, and the place is called for the Turkish Quaters (or similar).

Good to hear, another proof that unlike alcohol pot doesn't effect memory :biggrin:

Defenestrated · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
if you aren't willing to acknowledge varying degrees of judicial action for events resulting in death, then you have long disposed of your usefulness to reason.

you do understand the difference between murder & manslaughter (or negligent homicide), right? at worst, the idf is engaged in depraved indifference, which is demonstrably shared by those militant elements of hamas who both fire rockets & hide among civilians.

if you are a subscriber to clarity, you must concede this point.

Israel is not a car that happened to smack a pedestrian crossing the street too early. They know they are going to kill Palestinian civilians with their actions, they may be not be targets, but they are prepared to kill thousands of Palestinians to stop Quassam rockets which have killed 18 Israelis.

Where is your justification. It is really pitiful that you can so quickly dehumanize a group of people to the point where referring to their mass murder as merely unintentional manslaughter satisfies what's left of your ethical thoughts.

Israel has locked these people into a finite area and drops bombs on them and you call it negligence?! hahahahaa

$tinkle · Jan 9, 2009

i think we should tone down teh rhetoric before it turns into this: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,478626,00.html

lulz

Transcend · Jan 9, 2009

Defenestrated said:
Israel has locked these people into a finite area and drops bombs on them and you call it negligence?! hahahahaa

Like shooting fish in a barrel...

TheMontashu · Jan 9, 2009

Transcend said:
Not without US weapons they couldn't. Not a chance. A sweet tank and some Uzis isn't going to cut it against an airforce, any airforce.

Not to mention the galil, and there new rifle (not sure what it's called) on top of being the single best trained army on earth. They did it on there own in 48 they can do it again

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
ummm...if you had followed the posts, you would (hopefully) arrive that i was pointing out the dead are being used for propaganda.

Jigga please, what should that do, hide the truth from the world? does their action differ from what anybody else rightfully would have done in the same situation? I know this is a common Israeli statment but looking at what they do the Palestinians don't come close, because the Israelis won't let the media in so the media has to settle with showing the suffering mainly from Israeli side. Now is that a good fakin propaganda machine or what?

I was watching c-span today and I got sick of all those politicians taht had traveled to Sderot and had a lot of stories to tell about all those horrible alarms that went of several times per day, but they didn't spend one single thought that while the alarms went of on one side all the dying went on on the other side.

Immagine how our mainstream medias would report on this issue if the same amount that today is owned by Jews and other zionists, would instead be owned by Palestinians and their supporters... They are after all what are shaping the minds of at least 99% of us. We'd sure have different world.

Propaganda.....they've got some audaicty to speak of that.......

$tinkle said:
guidance system != targeting civilians, which is hamas' m.o.

Exactly, we all know how accurate those are. So obviously they're sometimes targeting civilians only to break their spirit. No frikken way they'd hit two kids on a roof playing football otherwise.

$tinkle said:
neither to bullets; are they too just a nuisance?

No, compare Qassam rockets with laserguided 500lb, 1000lb and 2000lb bombs dropped from F-16I's. Keep to what's happening in reality. As horrible Qassam rockets are, they're noting compared to AGM missiles. You don't agree? compare damage on infrastructure and count the victimes; 18+injured vs +2500.......

$tinkle said:
did you miss that part about rockets being fired from at or very near the school, & the terrorists (i.e., valid military targets) took cover there?

I musta missed the UN saying that they were, and Israel hasn't shown any footage of it to my knowledge. Claming collateral damage on this one is as retarded as claming collateral damage on the Qassam rockets fired towards Sderot just because they were intended for legitemate targets and that they hoped that they would hit one.

lthumbsdown:

$tinkle said:
again with this.
hezbollah was believe to be holed up there, that is why it was targeted.
i write "believed" b/c they were observed firing from positions only meters away & were observed to take shelter there.

I kno the Israeli claim of it, but there's no hiding that the exact location, and therefore the cordinates, was known by the Israelis. Their forward artillery coordinator were also directing the fire and knew exactly were he was directing is as he was watching. Those were aimd at the UN to make them retreat. :nopity:

$tinkle said:
maybe if israel pulled out from its outposts & settlements in the west bank violence would abate.

Without a doubt those are parts of the Palistinian claims, the other likewise important ones are withdrawal from E.Jerusalem, let them have it for their capitol, and let all the refugees return.

Personally, I'd like to see a one state sollution (with a one sallary sollution, conserining Bohorec's comment). I belive that would be best for both people, for reconsiliation, and everybody else taht is affected by this.

bohorec said:
Good to hear, another proof that unlike alcohol pot doesn't effect memory :biggrin:

And if it does, it's only the short term memmory wich you don't have to worry about. Just give it some time, then it will be an issue for the long term memory and voilà!

Transcend · Jan 9, 2009

TheMontashu said:
Not to mention the galil, and there new rifle (not sure what it's called) on top of being the single best trained army on earth. They did it on there own in 48 they can do it again

I sure hope that rifle can shoot down a plane or a missle when the US takes back it's radar systems, F16, F35s, Patriot Missles, Helicopter Gunships, Lift aircraft, anti aircraft defenses, drone aircraft etc.

They have no chance against an airforce of any sort without the US weapons, and their ground forces would be in much longer, bloodier battles without the support of their own airforce's US craft, intelligence (drones) and munitions.

$tinkle · Jan 9, 2009

rockwool said:
Jigga please, what should that do, hide the truth from the world? does their action differ from what anybody else rightfully would have done in the same situation? I know this is a common Israeli statment but looking at what they do the Palestinians don't come close, because the Israelis won't let the media in so the media has to settle with showing the suffering mainly from Israeli side. Now is that a good fakin propaganda machine or what?

you're a smart kid.
why did you write this? do you believe the video showed an honest effort at "reviving" the corpse (or kid pretending to be dead)? do you know how to effectively render chest compressions? do you know that the kid wasn't even bagged/ventilated?

rockwool said:
Exactly, we all know how accurate those are. So obviously they're sometimes targeting civilians only to break their spirit. No frikken way they'd hit two kids on a roof playing football otherwise.

so you think it's a reasonable claim that 2 kids were "playing football on the roof" during wartime? if true, these kids were more trusting of the israeli military than you are.

rockwool said:
Personally, I'd like to see a one state sollution (with a one sallary sollution, conserining Bohorec's comment). I belive that would be best for both people, for reconsiliation, and everybody else taht is affected by this.

i was being sarcastic about israel pulling out of west bank - THEY ALREADY HAVE, and it has not resulted in peace. get my drift? seems there are elements who don't recognize concessions by israel to give land back

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

Transcend said:
I sure hope that rifle can shoot down a plane or a missle when the US takes back it's radar systems, F16, F35s, Patriot Missles, Helicopter Gunships, Lift aircraft, anti aircraft defenses, drone aircraft etc.

They have no chance against an airforce of any sort without the US weapons, and their ground forces would be in much longer, bloodier battles without the support of their own airforce's US craft, intelligence (drones) and munitions.

Next thing the Israelis are gonna be launching their spy satellites with the help of the spaceshuttle X-Lax1.

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
you're a smart kid.
why did you write this? do you believe the video showed an honest effort at "reviving" the corpse (or kid pretending to be dead)? do you know how to effectively render chest compressions? do you know that the kid wasn't even bagged/ventilated?

I was speaking in generall, and not specificly about that vid. It's not like the lives of 200 kids haven't been taken so that I should have a need to question what's happening. Consentrating on if they've bagged the victim, and what not, when we all know that they hardly have any equipment due to the 18month blockade is ridiculous.

$tinkle said:
so you think it's a reasonable claim that 2 kids were "playing football on the roof" during wartime? if true, these kids were more trusting of the israeli military than you are.

They're kids man, they're gonna wanna play football after 14 bloody days of war. Kids don't reason like us about danger, they have needs that are more important. :bonk:

OK, let's say that I'm wrong. Why the hell were the Israelis targeting the building of a cameraman for? It's common practice of the IDF to kill Palestinian cameramen and journalists so that the truth won't get out. WARCRIME

$tinkle said:
i was being sarcastic about israel pulling out of west bank - THEY ALREADY HAVE, and it has not resulted in peace. get my drift? seems there are elements who don't recognize concessions by israel to give land back

But they didn't pull out of E.Jerusalem and let all the refugees repatriate that they rightfully are allowed to do, did they? Concessions to give what and how much as it pleases it? Forgive me your exellence, I forgot my place.

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

RON PAUL a Republican hero, one of fiver persons to go against the mainstream in the resolution voting today!!!

Defenestrated · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
you're a smart kid.
why did you write this? do you believe the video showed an honest effort at "reviving" the corpse (or kid pretending to be dead)? do you know how to effectively render chest compressions? do you know that the kid wasn't even bagged/ventilated?

I don't need to question the validity of news stories when I have raw data.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

Latest update:

Two journalists injured when Israelis now have targeted various different news organizatons (I think about three), one of them was Turkish (kill'em I don't care).

In total three journalists have been killed and also six paramedics.

$tinkle · Jan 9, 2009

does that graph include the number of palestinians who kill their own who they suspect of being zionist agents? or the number of bomb manufacturers who die in "work related accidents"? or suicide bombers?

and how many israelis killed were civilians?

i'm curious. aren't you?

e: for funzies

Defenestrated · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
and how many israelis killed were civilians?

i'm curious. aren't you?

You'd know if you took the time to look at the link I posted. Here let me do it for you.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Civilians Killed:
Israeli - 727
Palestinian - 2,227 - 3,149

Edit: and for laughs, 1,050 of those Palestinians were children!
Edit 2: Statistics for current fighting http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dec08.html
Edit 3: Oh my god, http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/third.html those swine!

$tinkle · Jan 9, 2009

30 israeli soldiers committed suicide? must've been feeling rather blue

rockwool · Jan 9, 2009

$tinkle said:
does that graph include the number of palestinians who kill their own who they suspect of being zionist agents? or the number of bomb manufacturers who die in "work related accidents"? or suicide bombers?

and how many israelis killed were civilians?

i'm curious. aren't you?

e: for funzies

Those who you call zionist agents are actually beduins. Their tradition is to allways go with the winning power, that way they have survived. I think they're scum. They serve in the Israeli military and are called 'scouts'.

Good funzy.

803 Palestinians killed
3330 wounded

TheMontashu · Jan 10, 2009

Samirol said:
I was at the SF protest today, it was pretty cool, there were a couple thousand people there at least

Hey me too, though I wasn't protesting. Both sides are wrong so it's kind of hard to take one

TheMontashu · Jan 10, 2009

rockwool said:
Those who you call zionist agents are actually beduins. Their tradition is to allways go with the winning power, that way they have survived. I think they're scum. They serve in the Israeli military and are called 'scouts'.

Good funzy.

803 Palestinians killed
3330 wounded

Bedouins have a history of not having problems with whom ever controls the land. How can you call a group of Muslims who can actually get along with Jews scum? The Bedouins are a prime example of how peaceful coexistence is possible.

TheMontashu · Jan 10, 2009

Samirol said:
they assist in oppression, and people that directly help in oppression are scum

I don't think they typically send them into gaza or the west bank

Israel's Crimes Against Humanity

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