[Nick]

looping out is key to learning to manual and wheelie. you'll never find the balance point without looping out.
Wheelie up a slight incline and cover your brake.
Manual down a slight decline and cover your brake.

Go. Report back.

 

[Gary]

Reporting back from the mid 70s.

He's right of course.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I went out and spent all of fifteen or twenty minutes this afternoon. Not much success. I may keep fiddling.

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

I started Ryan's 30 day challenge today. Gotta say as an utter wheelie failure thus far in my riding "career", the tips just in his first lesson made a huge difference. The big one for me was keeping full weight on your saddle when putting down that first pedal stroke. Never thought about it but it's a huge deal. I was able to hit the balance point with just a half stroke and even looped out (landed on my feet) a few times. I'm pumped to keep going--at very worst I'll end up miles better than I am now.

 

[Jm_]

Training ride today. I was way more unstable, I think due to being tired, but at the same time much better able to change my direction and steer, able to slow down much more too and control speed more on the downhills, riding through several intersections, down the curbs, through the intersection, and up on the other side (yay, progression!) and a bridge that goes over a major road. I was definitely able to get further back on the downhills. 2 hours of wheelieing over 20 miles. Was surprised at how long I held some, probably 2x longer than the last ride (but again, all over the freaking place due to being tired I think).

 

[Katz]

I have been wanting to bunnyhop/bump hop higher lately, inspired by Braydon Bringhurst's edits.

So I started doing some plyometrics, even though I generally avoid non-MTB physical activities.

And I slipped/bulged a disc somewhere on my lower spine.

Le Regression.

 

[buckoW]

Well shit! I’ve got a moldy back myself. No fun.

 

[Rhubarb]

I prefer manualing to wheelies and been practicing a lot the past month. Seems more useful on the trails and I generally enjoy the feeling of manualing. Just started practicing front end stoppies. After watching Bernard Kerr explain the process it is much easier. Might need to change my pads to metallic for a little more power though.

 

[Katz]

Well shit! I’ve got a moldy back myself. No fun.

Yeah, fortunately I've recovered well enough that I can make light of the situation, but the first 2~3 days were pure misery. I've been (semi-)diligently doing spinal decompression and McKenzie stretches every evening.

 

[Gary]

This thread motivated me to start Ryan's course yesterday afternoon with my 10yr old.
She's not really into bikes like I am. Plays football (goalkeeper) to a pretty high standard and pre-C-19 trained 3 days a week with games or tournaments at the weekends. She now has goals and other equipment to train in the garden and gets out for a walk/ride once a day. I've helped/taught loads of folk how to wheelie and she's asked me a few times but doesn't really commit to what I tell her in the same way she commits to her teachers/coaches so I thought I'd try teaching her from Ryan's course using it like a textbook. Day 2 and she's committing to the drills and making good progress. Reading through his couse also made me realise I'd missed some beginner mistakes for giving others tips. The biggest one was stay siting on the saddle. I somehow had failed to even notice all these years that some riders unweight their ars when they do the initial pedal kick.
I had a quick skim read through the whole course and realised that although I've been pretty proficient at wheelies and been doing them prettty much every time i ride a bike for 40+ years. I could definitely do with learning proper brake control. Ryan's advice is to drag the brake a little the entire wheelie. fuck me! for me this feels like learning to wheelie from a beginner level all over again. I'm also starting to realise me doing long wheelies and manuals without using my brake for control is really quite unusual.

 

[StiHacka]

I had a quick skim read through the whole course and realised that although I've been pretty proficient at wheelies and been doing them prettty much every time i ride a bike for 40+ years. I could definitely do with learning proper brake control. Ryan's advice is to drag the brake a little the entire wheelie. fuck me! for me this feels like learning to wheelie from a beginner level all over again. I'm also starting to realise me doing long wheelies and manuals without using my brake for control is really quite unusual.

Brag level unbrag achieved.

 

[Jm_]

Did a big ride on the "skinnier" fat bike, definitely harder. I got to maybe about 80% of what I was doing before. Had to go back and remember some basics about pulling straight up and continue the pedaling to get to the balance spot, a little trickier finding the right gear. Eventually was doing pretty good, but again, not as good as on the other bike. There's a "forward" position where you can pedal against the resistance and it's easier, but the higher/rearward position gives me more steering and downhill control/bit of manually, but is harder to balance. I'll keep at it on this until I get at least as good as before. Definitely wore me the F-out.

 

[Gary]

On the way down the road to see my daughter this afternoon I stupidly thought I'd try lifting the front to manual while brake dragging like Ryan describes for teaching brake memory when learning wheelies. Only it just resulted in not being able to raise the front consistently to balance point. (in hindsight, no shit Einstein!) So I then just tried a normal manny and leaning back lower while trying to hold my brake a little. but because I'm so used to not using a brake I pulled too hard and my ass hit the tyre and my nads got smashed against the back of my seat so hard I had to check they were ok. I can't believe how difficult I'm finding getting my head round this.
Later, when I told my girlfiriend my funny story of the day, her reply was "why do you want to learn to brake when you can already manual without them anyway?" er... I was reading something about progression on the internet!

Progression level unprogress achieved

Not giving up on this yet tho. brakes are useful

 

[Jm_]

Thinking about this from a beginner perspective, I think a few of my biggest errors initially were trying to do it in too low of a gear, then pausing pedaling when I brought the front end up and not bringing the front end up straight. Thinking about "continuing" the pedaling until in position helps me. Now I can get away with not bringing it up perfectly straight every time, but only because I've learned more how to steer and counter my weight. At first, there was no way I could get established without a good clean pop and my wheel had to be perfectly straight, then I had to be in a hard enough gear to pedal against the nose dropping to continue shifting my weight back. It definitely took a few tries at times today to get to that established point.

On the other hand, although more frustrating and not up to the level that I had on the other bike, I still rode through 2 intersections on a wheelie, so goddammit you can't take that away from me.

 

[Gary]

You know I have no idea what an intersection is.
I assume it's some sort of sexual encounter
As that's what usually happens to me when I pull sweet wheelies in public

 

[Jm_]

You know I have no idea what an intersection is.
I assume it's some sort of sexual encounter
As that's what usually happens to me when I pull sweet wheelies in public

It will look damn cool when I get hit by a car and die.

 

[Gary]

Thinking about this from a beginner perspective, I think a few of my biggest errors initially were trying to do it in too low of a gear, then pausing pedaling when I brought the front end up and not bringing the front end up straight. Thinking about "continuing" the pedaling until in position helps me.

Yeah, you get used to all that with experience. Once you truely get there you'll be able to start a wheelie in any gear, pause, correct your balance/straighten up and resume pedalling. The biggest help for a noob when learning is the resistance. hence grass surfaces and slight uphill gradients being way easier.
I just wish I'd bothered to learn how to make reistance with a fucking brake lever all those years back. The fact we're all spoilt fucks running super good reliable quality (except @Udi) powerful brakes these days isn't really helping me.

 

[buckoW]

I think getting a feeling for going past the balance point but dragging the brakes to avoid looping out and slowing down but not putting the wheel down helps understand the sweet spot. Also, if you play with low ones and high ones on the vertical axis then that also gives you an idea of the zone where the balance happens. Anytime I’m going downhill I practice manuals. You can always get better.

slow rebound and firm compression makes for easier manuals, imo.

 

[OGRipper]

I think getting a feeling for going past the balance point but dragging the brakes to avoid looping out and slowing down but not putting the wheel down helps understand the sweet spot. Also, if you play with low ones and high ones on the vertical axis then that also gives you an idea of the zone where the balance happens. Anytime I’m going downhill I practice manuals. You can always get better.

slow rebound and firm compression makes for easier manuals, imo.

^^^This. Learning to modulate/feather your rear brake just enough to keep from looping out without slapping the front wheel down seems to be one of the hardest parts for a lot of folks. I see a lot of people give up and put a foot down because they don't realize how steep they can get their bike without going over backwards. Once you trust that rear brake you can get your bike pretty much vertical without looping out.

 

[Katz]

...slow rebound and firm compression makes for easier manuals, imo.

Definitely. I can roll a manual reasonably well on a hardtail, but not nearly as well on my 165mm bike. Using the blue cheater lever makes it a lot easier.

.....

My 0.02 pesos on manualling a fully squishy bike :

I found that compressing the rear suspension with legs before lofting the front wheel helps with consistency. I'm guessing the "L-shape" maneuver touted by many people lately is probably meant to accomplish this, though I've never heard anybody specifically telling you to squish the rear suspension.

I find that each individual's brain has its unique way of interpreting body motion. The L-shape thing never made sense to me until I equated the initial part of "L" as compressing the rear suspension, like I've been doing. And more than likely, when I manual, I probably look exactly like people doing L-shape in their mind.

If my brain was to explain my own body motion, it would be more like "J-shape" ... Compress rear suspension vertically with legs, then kinda heel down and push the pedals forward against palms of stretched arms, while keeping the upper body steady (this helps me stabilize side-to-side balance).

Something to try if the L-shape maneuver and other methods aren't working out for you.

P.S. bike fit matters also. I can loft the front wheel of my large Nomad V3 with relative ease. I had a hell of a time just getting the front wheel off the ground on my friend's Rid Egg Smash size 3 in long setting - I managed to roll a manaul on it eventually, but it took a whole lot more effort.

 

[OGRipper]

^^^Bike fit definitely matters, but for me that's mostly about wheelbase and wheel size. Feels like my front wheel is roughly 15 feet in the air when I do a wheelie or manual on my XL Megatower. I'm exaggerating, of course, but this stuff is definitely harder on your average modern long and squishy bike.

 

[Jm_]

I don't quite understand "feathering" the brake, as in applying a smooth consistent/constant amount of brake, that's what I consider to be "feathering". I'm going in between using brake and the front end comes back down, then I pedal back up a bit, but it's janky.

And yeah, I'm amazed how far back you can go.

 

[OGRipper]

I think of "feathering" like modulating, I guess. It should be smooth but it's not consistent - you increase or decrease brake force with subtle changes. Eventually you'll touch the brake just enough to not flip over, but not so much that you need to pedal. The flip side is also true - you'll get the feel for adding enough pedal input that you don't need to touch your brake. When you're first figuring it out you end up see-sawing between being on the gas and being on the brake (maybe that's what you mean by "janky"?) but eventually you should settle into that sweet spot with only subtle corrections.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I think of "feathering" like modulating, I guess. It should be smooth but it's not consistent - you increase or decrease brake force with subtle changes. Eventually you'll touch the brake just enough to not flip over, but not so much that you need to pedal. The flip side is also true - you'll get the feel for adding enough pedal input that you don't need to touch your brake. When you're first figuring it out you end up see-sawing between being on the gas and being on the brake (maybe that's what you mean by "janky"?) but eventually you should settle into that sweet spot with only subtle corrections.

Roughly, modulate means "use": exert a modifying or controlling influence on

 

[Bikael Molton]

Covering the brake rather than feathering seems to be what's being discussed.

 

[OGRipper]

Ha! I knew this would turn pedantic. I guess we've got a lot of time on our hands. But no, I think covering the brake means holding your hand over the lever, ready to pull the brake when you need to. That's a good idea when learning wheelies but we're talking about actually using the brake but applying a variable amount of pressure - just enough to keep from looping out, but not so much that you slap down your front wheel. It's a good skill regardless, but especially helpful for wheelies.

 

[Gary]

^^^This. Learning to modulate/feather your rear brake just enough to keep from looping out without slapping the front wheel down seems to be one of the hardest parts for a lot of folks. I see a lot of people give up and put a foot down because they don't realize how steep they can get their bike without going over backwards. Once you trust that rear brake you can get your bike pretty much vertical without looping out.

Yeah, I'm finding brake control hardAF to learn after years and years of doing pretty decent slow or fast mannies without ever learning to use my brake. (as opposed to just tapping it as a last resort). Only really just decided to start trying to do it so trying to introduce it quickly is messing with my head big time as all my muscle memory is still forcing me to just kick/straighten or squat/bend my legs to hold balance instead of using the brake to do what a leg squat would. I guess I need to also be learning/forcing myself to squat less if I'm even thinking of touching the lever. I suppose learning straight leg mannies and downhill coaster wheelies might be a good place to start to learn lighter brake finger control too? My fine control of the rear brake rear lever is pretty shockingly bad and it's really showing. Does this makes sense to you guys? @buckoW and @OGRipper

TBF I'm only just back getting outside doing anything and this is the first time in years I've intentionally tried to learn the braking technique. This was on my little 4X hardtail and I was definitely expecting to get the hang of using the brake more too quickly. I don't really have an issue switching from that bike to an FS using my old self taught no brakes way. but there's definitely far less room for error on it compared to a big FS. I tend to manny with my front wheel pretty low on any bike but on that HT (and my BMX) it's def lower than on an FS bike.

 

[Westy]

Wheelies on a bike with old school geometry is a hell of a lot easier than one with modern limousine geometry.

 

[buckoW]

Sounds about right. I switch bikes a lot and they all have different brakes.
Try throwing the manual on something steeper so you are accelerating then do your brakeless bmx technique/position with your ass as low as you can go. Now try to do the same but dropping the brake and try to slow down and come to a stop. You can control your speed by dragging the brake if you go too far back low or high with your butt.

Try with slow rebound and firm compression so when you tap the brake the input is dulled down and it isn’t as jerky.

It’s really steep here so doing long manuals involves lots of speed control and corners. A friend of mine made it from the end of the WC track down to the tram on his back wheel. That’s one of the better ones around here. Vink always pulls the sickest ones anywhere.

This was fun to film. He insisted that he link up every manny line so we are not « cheating ». It was a funny tension where we knew he wasn’t cheating and could link up all of them but he needed to prove it to himself by doing all the lines linked up. So, he would hike up 40x higher than the shot to keep the integrity of the manual lines.

 

[Jm_]

It’s really steep here so doing long manuals involves lots of speed control and corners. A friend of mine made it from the end of the WC track down to the tram on his back wheel. That’s one of the better ones around here. Vink always pulls the sickest ones anywhere.

This was fun to film. He insisted that he link up every manny line so we are not « cheating ». It was a funny tension where we knew he wasn’t cheating and could link up all of them but he needed to prove it to himself by doing all the lines linked up. So, he would hike up 40x higher than the shot to keep the integrity of the manual lines.

Wow, that was impressive.

 

[Gary]

Sounds about right. I switch bikes a lot and they all have different brakes.
Try throwing the manual on something steeper so you are accelerating then do your brakeless bmx technique/position with your ass as low as you can go. Now try to do the same but dropping the brake and try to slow down and come to a stop. You can control your speed by dragging the brake if you go too far back low or high with your butt.

Thanks man, Yeah. that all makes sense.

Try with slow rebound and firm compression so when you tap the brake the input is dulled down and it isn’t as jerky.

Never really thought about adjusting settings on FS and tend to run a slightly faster rebound and minimal compression so will try that too and see how much difference it makes.

It’s really steep here so doing long manuals involves lots of speed control and corners. A friend of mine made it from the end of the WC track down to the tram on his back wheel. That’s one of the better ones around here. Vink always pulls the sickest ones anywhere.

Yeah. I can manual pretty far on the Les Gets to Morzine road (probs around a mile) and follow the bends fine. you're probably talking steeper roads than that though.

This was fun to film. He insisted that he link up every manny line so we are not « cheating ». It was a funny tension where we knew he wasn’t cheating and could link up all of them but he needed to prove it to himself by doing all the lines linked up. So, he would hike up 40x higher than the shot to keep the integrity of the manual lines.

Absolutely love that Vink video. I remember thinking WTF when I first saw him manny the left right berms near the end of the vid, if that's the bit of track I'm thinking it is it's way steeper into the second berm than the vid makes out isn't it? Super cool to hear how he was being such a no cheat perfectionist doing it. I'd love to see a drone shot one take video of him somewhere similar.



Ben Deakin just put out a pretty decent manny tutorial video.
If you skip the first 4mins ish

Pretty simplified, doesn't go on about the needless L shape thing (You can clearly see he doesn't do it himself on the manual trainer) and explains the pre-load/push pretty well.
Nothing in it I didn't already know/do but I've gotta admit I spent the entire POV part of the video just watching his left braking finger trying to judge how much he's pulling on it.

 

[OGRipper]

Damn. Forget I said anything and just watch BuckoW’s video instead.

 

[djjohnr]

To make learning the manual pop-up movement easier you can use sidewalk pedestrian ramps to initiate the movement. A buddy showed me that when I was first learning and it helped quite a bit.

 

[Jm_]

Thought this was a great discussion on wheelies/manuals and other things. Super-long, but kept me interested.

 

[Gary]

Thought this was a great discussion on wheelies/manuals and other things. Super-long, but kept me interested.

Might watch it later, but surely manuals and coaster wheelies must have come before wheelies as the first bikes velocepedes didn't have any sort of drivetrain

...and when they finally did many were front wheel driven.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jm_]

Might watch it later, but surely manuals and coaster wheelies must have come before wheelies as the first bikes velocepedes didn't have any sort of drivetrain

...and when they finally did many were front wheel driven.

[/QUOTE]
Yeah, even though that's the title, it's not really the premise, the video is about skills, manuals and wheelies, answering some questions and going into a lot of depth on the topics, based on the ride clinics that he does. I found it interesting, but you should set aside time for it.

 

[kidwoo]

Might watch it later, but surely manuals and coaster wheelies must have come before wheelies as the first bikes velocepedes didn't have any sort of drivetrain

...and when they finally did many were front wheel driven.

Oh yeah, that thing looks MADE for manuals!

 

[mtg]

For feathering the rear brake during a wheelie, it definitely helps me to hold my finger as close to the pivot point of the lever as possible. It effectively reduces the brake power and helps prevent slamming the front wheel down.

 

[Gary]

Oh yeah, that thing looks MADE for manuals!

Brah, Who gives a fuck about regulation 50mm stems and thirty, forty blah offsets when your bike has reigns

 

[jonKranked]

Manualled 20 feet. Bmx bike. None of that brake nonsense.