[Jm_]

looping out is key to learning to manual and wheelie. you'll never find the balance point without looping out.
Wheelie up a slight incline and cover your brake.
Manual down a slight decline and cover your brake.

Go. Report back.

I looped out for the first time today on pavement. It hurt. I do not feel like it helped me learn anything. I was trying to feather the brake more with my finger more inward. Even as I hit, I was still braking, so it wasn't as hard as it could have been. It concerned the passer-bys as I just laid there with in apathy with my bike on top of me.

I was concentrating more on initiating wheelies downhill, going fairly well. The looping out was most likely due to just being tired and not following through.

 

[Nick]

I didn't mean looping = crashing.
When you feel the balance shift past the point of no return, put your foot down.

learning wheelies uphill is easier, automatic speed check.

You aren't clipped in, are you?

 

[Jm_]

I didn't mean looping = crashing.
When you feel the balance shift past the point of no return, put your foot down.

Well that was the fucking plan, what I practiced on snow before. A possible catch 22 though is that back then, I didn't understand the balance point at all and proper form, so even though I practiced it, it may not have meant much.

And yeah, I'm clipped in, everywhere, all the time. I tried flats when I was learning, but it didn't make anything easier. I think I was just a bit apathetic and tired. This bike is harder for me to wheelie on, so I had spent a lot more effort on it during the ride. I'm past the uphill thing I think, on both bikes, I can control my speed downhills most of the time, was working on coasting downhill some today too (in the wheelie). I like the emphasis in the video above (and something I'd picked up myself) about just popping into position, not crouching crazy cat-like/loading. I had to do some pretty exaggerated movements at first, but now I'm doing that much more natural and on a whim, which is much better, also helps with initiating the downhill wheelies, etc.

 

[buckoW]

If you are to that point then playing around with seat height and only doing bitch cranks to initiate or keep going is fun. Going back and forth between and wheelies without putting the front wheel down is fun too.

 

[Jm_]

If you are to that point then playing around with seat height and only doing bitch cranks to initiate or keep going is fun. Going back and forth between and wheelies without putting the front wheel down is fun too.

I assume bitch-cranks is just little partial pedal strokes, so yeah, that's what I'm doing some of the time.

 

[buckoW]

yeah.... that's what I meant.
Nice! When you start doing that you are figuring out the balance point nicely. Have you tried starting in a wheelie and then standing to go to a manual? Also, you can increase your balance sweet spot if you put your butt lower. I like to go low and then high and back like a rowing machine. It feels so stupid it makes me laugh every time.

 

[jonKranked]

I didn't mean looping = crashing.
When you feel the balance shift past the point of no return, put your foot down.

learning wheelies uphill is easier, automatic speed check.

You aren't clipped in, are you?

when i loop out on BMX i have to hop off the back of the bike and hit the ground running.

 

[jonKranked]

If you are to that point then playing around with seat height and only doing bitch cranks to initiate or keep going is fun. Going back and forth between and wheelies without putting the front wheel down is fun too.

here in the states, at least the bmx dudes i used to ride with called them bitch kicks.

 

[Gary]

"Bitch cranks" 20+ years back here always used to mean sticking a pedal stroke in between sets in a dirt jump line when you'd overjumped, cased or just fucked up the flow. That definition would work just as well for me in the context of a using a pedal revolution to maintain the momentum of a manny or coaster wheelie.
a "bitch kick" sounds more like a "pedal kick" to me than an actual revolution of the cranks. Similar to "ratchetting" your cranks to maintain momentum and balance like trials riders do on skinnies. But yeah can also be used on the rear wheel.
Whatever tho. other than the DJ definition they're all a cool. another skill for your bag and fun.

 

[jonKranked]

"Bitch cranks" 20+ years back here always used to mean sticking a pedal stroke in between sets in a dirt jump line when you'd overjumped, cased or just fucked up the flow. That definition would work just as well for me in the context of a using a pedal revolution to maintain the momentum of a manny or coaster wheelie.
a "bitch kick" sounds more like a "pedal kick" to me than an actual revolution of the cranks. Similar to "ratchetting" your cranks to maintain momentum and balance like trials riders do on skinnies. But yeah can also be used on the rear wheel.
Whatever tho. other than the DJ definition they're all a cool. another skill for your bag and fun.

this is what i learned from the bmx crew i used to ride with, albeit casually. these weren't just a bunch of hardcore dudes. i went to college in Rochester NY, which is home to Kink bmx and blackout distribution. Tony Hamlin still lived there at the time, and FBM was 2 hours away in Ithaca. it was a surprisingly big bmx scene for such a small city.

 

[Gary]

Yeah, wasn't arguing with your terminology. The word "here" in my nostalgic geographically localised anecdotal biking terminology comment was refering to the UK. Prevelantly the (Scottish) Glasgow BMX scene 30 years back and later the South of England dirt jump scene (20 years back). You'd probably recognise a few riders names from both of those scenes back then too. But if not definitely the bike companies they're involved with.

 

[dovbush66]

Started practicing hops this past week. pull up technique was there but had a really bad tuck - think i got it now despite looping out a lot more

i feel like filming attempts helped. On attempts like top pic I felt good since i was landing it smoothly but i was barely getting wheel height. makes you realise how lame you look, lol.

 

[Jm_]

Nice, that seems like good height.

Been working on the downhill wheelies, doing pretty good with it. Able to brake and control my speed. Able to pop up to "downhill wheelie" position from a downhill easy. Only using the narrower fat-tire bike. Done a few tests with my mountain bike, much harder. Working towards that. Shorter chainstays is definitely easier to pop up. Didn't really notice this at first since I started on my longest one, but going incrementally shorter makes it easier to pop, going back to that longer bike I definitely notice it again.

 

[Nick]

FWIW Lenowski posted a good manual tutorial on the youtoobs.

 

[Udi]

I looped out for the first time today on pavement. It hurt. I do not feel like it helped me learn anything. I was trying to feather the brake more with my finger more inward. Even as I hit, I was still braking, so it wasn't as hard as it could have been. It concerned the passer-bys as I just laid there with in apathy with my bike on top of me.

Mad props for going through with it, I had a similar thing happen (not as bad) with an Avid brake coming to the bar and I've been terrified of trying it again since.

 

[djjohnr]

Punched up onto a platform the same height at my front tire this week.

 

[Jm_]

Just for shits and giggles, I tried to wheelie my Pivot 429SL in the parking lot post ride. Holy crap, way easier to wheelie than my RFX. Something about the DW on the RFX makes it all janky trying to wheelie. It's got long-ish stays, but the pivot is about the same and I think it's something weird with the suspension.

 

[Westy]

Moving to Washington a few years ago I started riding much steeper trails on much slacker longer travel bikes with much better dirt. I never felt I was short on skills but definitely short on confidence. 20 years of programming of where the edge of the envelope is was wrong. I have made progress but it has been slow, injuries didn't help. After just a few weeks of riding my new hardtail it is all making a lot more sense. Despite being less capable, without 6 inches of travel I can actually feel what the fuck is going on between the bike and the trail and I feel a ton more confident on the steep tech stuff in just a few rides. Will be interesting to see if that transfers to the big squish bike.

 

[toodles]

Week three of quarantine "stand down" (basically unemployment) and I've got one handed wheelies to the length I can flip a bird to my riding buddy without dropping the wheel. I still have no idea how some guys can casually one handed manual... Leg control and strength must be epic.

 

[Nick]

^^^ I read that 3 times and can't find the spelling error.
@Inclag

 

[englertracing]

Just for shits and giggles, I tried to wheelie my Pivot 429SL in the parking lot post ride. Holy crap, way easier to wheelie than my RFX. Something about the DW on the RFX makes it all janky trying to wheelie. It's got long-ish stays, but the pivot is about the same and I think it's something weird with the suspension.

I have a suspicion bikes with high antirise create an odd feeling when applying the brake during a wheelie the bike sinks a bit creating more of a loop feeling just before the front end actually comes down. My friends giant reign wheelies like a hard tail pedaling and braking, while my pivot 5.5 moves around quite a bit and does the weird antirise thing.

 

[Jm_]

I have a suspicion bikes with high antirise create an odd feeling when applying the brake during a wheelie the bike sinks a bit creating more of a loop feeling just before the front end actually comes down. My friends giant reign wheelies like a hard tail pedaling and braking, while my pivot 5.5 moves around quite a bit and does the weird antirise thing.

I'm not sure about that, first I'd consider around 100% to be fairly normal, not high AS, I'd consider something like an Orange to be high, but both the Pivot 429SL and Turner RFX are DW designs with relatively the same amount of AS. The pivot is a 29er though, so maybe that larger contact area was helping out? It was dramatically easier to wheelie than the RFX.

 

[buckoW]

I think, less travel bikes are easier to manual. Lots of soft and active travel with a low bar is the hardest combo. More suspension movement when pulling the brake is more to control. The bar height will have a much larger effect than AS and AR. High bars are easier to manual but harder to corner, in my opinion. Any bike can be a manual machine if you raise the bars and calm down the rear end with slower rebound, firmer compression and a heavier spring. Whenever I have a bike that’s great for manuals it‘s terrible for corners and usually pushes the front wheel wide and gets lots of rear flats.

 

[Gary]

@buckoW I've tried using your "moar compression" tip for mannies by just flicking the comp adjuster to pedal on the ESommet on my work commute a few times now. But TBH I'm not really finding it help out too much. I normally ride that bike everywhere fully open (even on the road) but it's also set-up fairly stiff (27%sag) so I'm probably just very used to how much the suspension moves when manualling. Compression set to pedal does change how much preload/throw effort I have to put in to raise the front to balance point though.
My real issue is I just don't have great brake control (yet). Still can't brake drag to save myself. I tend to end up dabbing instead of lightly dragging and having to kick to sort out the balance point again. it's kinda ugly

The longer the bike the harder I find it to raise the front end. Whatever the settings.

 

[buckoW]

Try slower rebound so that if you brake too hard the bikes reaction is less bouncy and more controlled. The firmer compression is for when you push with your legs to bring the wheel back up then it’s more direct.
Honestly, I can manual better with a brake that is on it’s way out and no longer has a lot of bite. Brand new progressive brakes are harder for me than a clapped out Formula or V4. I also wind the rear lever out real far.

The end of the runs in Champery usually looks like this. Lots of people go back and forth between seated and standing because it is long and tiring. Julien, the guy filming is the only one I know of that made it to the bottom.

Julien Fournier on Instagram: "Wheeling at Champery"

332 likes, 3 comments - julien___fournier on April 22, 2017: "Wheeling at Champery"

www.instagram.com

 

[OGRipper]

Damn, impressive. You know you're on a good one when your front wheel stops spinning.

I agree that slowing down rebound and compression can help. The less movement the better when you're learning. By extension, if it hasn't already been said, it's better to learn on a hardtail if you have the option. It's more precise and there is a more direct connection between your inputs and the effect.

The other day a buddy and I were observing how there is a certain point at which you stop measuring your wheelies. At first it's "ooh I went 10 feet", or "yay, three parking spots!", but then you just get 'em figured out and the actual distance doesn't really matter.

 

[Bikael Molton]

So... I guess I've learned that long offset forks seem to make this stuff harder.

 

[6thElement]

I too have taken up this wheelie thing, I should probably watch a YT video but I can get halfway up our driveway so far...

Manualing would be far more beneficial, but my previous attempts at learning that to an extended distance were a failure

 

[buckoW]

I finally found the manny clip I wanted to share. He’s like 15 years younger than me and we’ve been riding together for 15 years. I used to be his bmx coach hen he was 13.
Julien made it from the end of the WC DH track down to the tram once. I don’t know of anyone else who’s made it all the way. Nico Vink almost got there a few times but it’s really tiring and that’s usually the limiting factor for most people.
https://m.facebook.com/Extreme/videos/415816825426740/

 

[Gary]

Try slower rebound so that if you brake too hard the bikes reaction is less bouncy and more controlled. The firmer compression is for when you push with your legs to bring the wheel back up then it’s more direct.
Honestly, I can manual better with a brake that is on it’s way out and no longer has a lot of bite. Brand new progressive brakes are harder for me than a clapped out Formula or V4. I also wind the rear lever out real far.

The end of the runs in Champery usually looks like this. Lots of people go back and forth between seated and standing because it is long and tiring. Julien, the guy filming is the only one I know of that made it to the bottom.

Thanks. Yeah. I see why you recommend I slow down the rebound and compression to calm the braking effect. winding out the lever reach sounds like a good shout too as I'm still struggling massively to modulate my rear brake well. so much so that I've actually given up on trying and regressed back to just not braking at all. Any sat down manualling for me is really more of an accident caused when I compress my legs and have to bring my pelvis too far forwards so doesn't last too long until I have to extend my legs again and stand back up.

Julien's body seems so calm on those long manys just confidently hanging there pefectly balanced.
cheers for posting. I love manual videos.

 

[Jm_]

Nothing impressive here, can't really get the downhill parts on video, etc. It seems like on my RFX when I get a good pull and start to wheelie, the rear brake (servo lever) is WAY to grabby and it ends before I can ever get stabilized. The ones on the bike in the video are non-servo and way easier to control. Did some pretty good coasting while doing wheelies (not in video) and then slammed the seat and practiced a bit of manual stuff. That's going to take a while, it feels like the "control" is going to have to be developed just like wheelie-ing, but it's going to take a while and a lot of practice. Definitely doesn't feel natural (unlike wheelies)

 

[Nick]

nice job!
any crashes from not being able to clip out?

 

[StiHacka]

Speaking of progression, how about recovery from a regression? I am still mentally recovering from a bad wreck in 2018, just hitting some of the drops and rough sections I was hitting routinely before.

 

[Jm_]

nice job!
any crashes from not being able to clip out?

No, I had some worn cleats over the last month and I just started replacing them. The worn cleats did cause a few issues at times where I'd pop out while trying to just pedal. That caused me to have to stop fairly abruptly, not crash though.

Only crashed once in the last few months, well ever really. I was still trying to find the right balance points at that time and I had leaned way further back than I needed to on a level surface. Although I used the brake, it wasn't effective enough at that angle to slam me forward, so I fell back, kinda slow, but still hurt.

Getting out is easy. If I want to loop it out and step off that way, I can, but it feels odd.

 

[ebarker9]

Figured I'd revive this after struggling through the Grim Donut discussion...

Anyone still progressing?

I had the opportunity to chase one of the faster northeast US DH racers around my local trails a couple of days ago and it's definitely renewed my desire to improve. Most noticeable, beyond his vastly superior speed absolutely everywhere, was his ability to gap over rougher sections of trail. I have zero ability to do that. Something to work on. And also cornering. I'm actually better at flat turns than berms. Just don't trust the things. I contort my body trying to find a confident and balanced position, wind up riding slowly and awkwardly, and people disappear ahead. More to work on.

 

[jonKranked]

Figured I'd revive this after struggling through the Grim Donut discussion...

Anyone still progressing?

I had the opportunity to chase one of the faster northeast US DH racers around my local trails a couple of days ago and it's definitely renewed my desire to improve. Most noticeable, beyond his vastly superior speed absolutely everywhere, was his ability to gap over rougher sections of trail. I have zero ability to do that. Something to work on. And also cornering. I'm actually better at flat turns than berms. Just don't trust the things. I contort my body trying to find a confident and balanced position, wind up riding slowly and awkwardly, and people disappear ahead. More to work on.

it's not all riding skills, you need fitness and core strength.

 

[ebarker9]

it's not all riding skills, you need fitness and core strength.

Plenty of blame to go around. Pedaling fitness is good. Overall strength, stability, and power is less so. But it's probably 80% skills. Jumping and berms, specifically. Going to prioritizing some time at a pump track.

 

[jonKranked]

Plenty of blame to go around. Pedaling fitness is good. Overall strength, stability, and power is less so. But it's probably 80% skills. Jumping and berms, specifically. Going to prioritizing some time at a pump track.

i used to do training rides with some pro level DH racers. eventually you get to a point where improving skills themselves isn't gonna be enough to progress.

 

[jonKranked]

and core strength is much more important than you realize. you're gonna need to it really push through corners and start making those jumps and gaps.

 

[Jm_]

Yeah, most people I see crashing on jumps and drops do not hold their body rigid, weather it's at the launch or upon landing. They let the G-forces collapse their body. The same thing happens side-to-side, but wider handlebars have helped. For sure there's some body-absorption that you have to give, but you can't let the forces overwhelm you and that core strength and some upper body is real important for this.

I haven't progressed much on the wheelie/manual front. I was thinking about this thread yesterday as I went out on a ride to hit the city aid-stations for bike-day and do a bunch of wheelies. I can sometimes do 90 degree turns on a smooth surface if they are wide enough, but I have to come nearly to a stop to do it. I can do 45 degree turns better, but **** it takes so much effort to wheelie and steer at the same time. I intend on practicing more as it starts to rain more (our transition season). I do notice that I take longer "breaks" at times, not pedaling while in wheelie, so that's good.