FYI, not all patents are legitimate. Theres a big reason a lot of things in the big industry look like other patented products. BECAUSE THE PATENT IS BULL****. It won't hold up in court and the patent holders know that. It doesn't represent any non-obvious innovation. Ex. chainguides. OMFG A PULLEY AND PIECE OF PLASTIC TO HOLD A CHAIN ON?!?! How innovative. Oh wait, things exactly like that are used in countless other industrial applications to solve the exact same problem, and are considered ridiculously obvious. Patent protection is important, but not everything deserves a patent, and a lot of big products fall into that category. As someone earlier said in this thread, IP is to push innovation forward, when obvious things become patentable and prevent competition in products that would've been developed without the IP protection, then the patents have become a problem, not a solution.
Edit: Yes I am an engineer.
Edit 2: What if someone had a patent on using rubber compounds in tires, or making a bike frame out of aluminum........come on people.
You sir are what makes the internet such a wonderfull place to converse. Very easy for you to sit behind your computer and talk all E-hard. Anyhow.......I did read the whole thread and at that point was getting sick of hearing a bunch of un-informed Fan boys wimper about a bike looking like another bike. I clearly stated that I wanted to see proof supporting this claim. I haven't read the Patent........but how many DW supporters in this thread have????Before you say anything else so rediculous, do two things.
1 Read this thread
2 Read the patent
IF you cannot figure it out by doing the above, I will help a bit.....DW and Giant have been in conversation since the inception of Meastro, and there is a LOT more to this or any bicycle suspension patent than 'axle path'
Get readin'
seriously, if you dont understand this kind of thing(or are just too lazy to read anything pertaining to yoru arguements), dont give your pointless input
Just read the patent.You sir are what makes the internet such a wonderfull place to converse. Very easy for you to sit behind your computer and talk all E-hard. Anyhow.......I did read the whole thread and at that point was getting sick of hearing a bunch of un-informed Fan boys wimper about a bike looking like another bike. I clearly stated that I wanted to see proof supporting this claim. I haven't read the Patent........but how many DW supporters in this thread have????
You need suppress that narcisistic rage and go ride your bike.
That is a dumb way of thinking, of course their is money in patenting the DW link, DW also makes money off his patent buy selling the companies who are willing to pay the rights to use the DW link. Independent Fabrication, Iron Horse, Ibis and Pivot Cycles had no problem paying, but Giant played the asshole role and used his link without paying. What I find weird is that if the two links are so similar, how has Giant been able to patent an already patented design with only changing the name?So why apply for patents in the first place then?
DW seems to patent everything he does, but if he hasn't the funds to go to court and protect his rights why not save the money in the first place?
I think we are not told the whole story here.
Now that is a brilliant question I would like to hear the answer to.That is a dumb way of thinking, of course their is money in patenting the DW link, DW also makes money off his patent buy selling the companies who are willing to pay the rights to use the DW link. Independent Fabrication, Iron Horse, Ibis and Pivot Cycles had no problem paying, but Giant played the asshole role and used his link without paying. What I find weird is that if the two links are so similar, how has Giant been able to patent an already patented design with only changing the name?
So he should be guilt tripped into riding a DW link?? (Over anything else on the market)Not being a jackass - I just thought it funny that you decide not to buy a Giant and feel bad for Dave, and then in the next sentence say you're glad you jumped to a competing design.
I don't think Canfield is DW-link, but if it is, then yes I am a jackass.
Agreed, i'd be pretty pissed about it too, however like most on here who have downloaded movies, tv shows, mp3s etc, we're all hypocrites, its a sad way the world is going, but perhaps its time for things to evolve?As DW said earlier, the world is not open source. Just because you can does not mean that it is ethically acceptable to duplicate the hard work of others and pass it off as your own.
Ugh, come to New Zealand, a Sunday is about twice as expensive as a glory, it really sucks!However I would buy the new giant, especilally if it will be the same system with new dw -bikes-if you want to order a sunday here, you only had limited time in spring to make a pre order(2 weeks or something), pay something totally overpriced here (sundays are cheap in US), then wait for it, without any chance to make an actual test of the bike. But damn all that could be also said for Yeti-cycles And we also know that all bunch of bike companies were ripped off by companies like cannondale, trek, etc...
Anyway I agree with you about the people who owned giants and are full of hate now. I guess they didn't know that they were riding the dw-link all the time :biggrin:
By staying ahead of everyone else instead of trying to push back or hinder everyone else. Industries compete and evolve around themselves and past one another. This is progress.How does the little guy survive on his own when big business takes his livelihood away?
Ohhhhh yes it is, and to a level far greater and far more intricate (and probably better documented/substantiated).It is NOT like this in other industries, at least not to this level.
You walked out of your job holding your check and let someone drive up and take it? That sounds like a personal problem...perhaps you are unhappy you own a small cheap truck/car?? F fancy trucks anyway...How would you feel if you went and did your work, worked at your job for 15 hours a day, for three years. At the end of all your work, you were pretty happy with the job you did. You worked really hard and the results were good.
Then at the end of the job, some guy in a big fancy, expensive truck came up and stole your paycheck.
I can tell you from experience. It SUCKS.
Mechanically speaking a DW link or Maestro fits into this category as well. The member that contains the rear axle is separated from the front triangle from two links (no direct pivot). Again from the mechanical standpoint the lower link on a DW link/Maestro could be construed as just a short chainstay in an FSR system...I could build an FSR bike with a forward chainstay pivot above the seat. It would ride like crap, but its still an FSR.
That's pretty much it....but it would sure make a robust case for Giant to be DIRECTLY ripping off the Sunday design, wouldn't it?? God that would be sensational....almost enough to get the Ridemonkey crew sent into a 10 page frenzy in the first day of the rumors existence!! Perhaps someone is bitter that they avoided the patent laws and came up with a workable design that was similar??? Nothing like a vicious rumor that is too technical and debateable to completely disprove to hurt the competitors reputation before the product is even finalized or released....Man this must be the fastest growing thread I can remember!
I really dont get it - the '09 glory and Sunday are not the same! They have different axle paths, different squat curves, different braking characteristics, and different leverage ratio curves just to name the most basic differences people will note! This is somewhat obviously from just noting the orientation of the linkage mounting points. OK so I can't give you specifics, but they are different enough to say the qualitys listed above are not the same.
What is really happening here is marketing shift. The new giant LOOKS somewhat similar to the former Sunday (even on its own, I think the '09 glory looks Siccckkkkkk). People are typically simple and oriented to visual characteristics. The new glory looks like the sunday so people will buy it based on the sunday's marketing tradeoff.
Or not, who knows. All I know is that there IS a difference between the former meastro and DW suspension for DH, as I have ridden both. Is it a bad difference? No. It's just a difference like every other damn bike out there. If they were all the same they'd be boring. Despite how similar the glory looks to the sunday, until it actually uses the same exact geometry and suspension, its still not a sunday! I love how people can get so e-hyped over stupid visual characteristics.
No, your attitude is exactly whats wrong with the world today, the world SHOULD be open source. Business and money are what is holding technology back, ever wonder why lots of technical advancements are made during desperate war times, because money doesn't matter then! Life isn't all about money, if you truly love mountain biking then you would be stoked that your design is being used by a company that has a better capability to get it to the masses then you do, regardless of whether or not your getting paid for it. Great thinkers often SACRIFICE themselves for their work, you should be stoked that Giant is giving access to an awesome suspension design to a very broad audience so more people can enjoy cycling. Problem is too many people in this industry aren't willing to make sacrifices to move the sport along, instead they think the sport should make sacrifices to them, I mean what type of person that truly loves this sport would hold an awesome design back from people just because they aren't making royalties off it?This attitude is exactly what's wrong with the world today.
The world is not open source.
It is not your "right" to have access to anything that you want, when you want it. The world is not the internet.
How does the little guy survive on his own when big business takes his livelihood away?
What motivation is there for people to share their ideas in the cycling industry when the inevitable outcome is that they will be "borrowed"? It is NOT like this in other industries, at least not to this level.
Let me ask you a question, what do you do for work?
How would you feel if you went and did your work, worked at your job for 15 hours a day, for three years. At the end of all your work, you were pretty happy with the job you did. You worked really hard and the results were good.
Then at the end of the job, some guy in a big fancy, expensive truck came up and stole your paycheck.
I can tell you from experience. It SUCKS.
BTW, the only thing that the patent office has said is that the dw-link is patented. The rest is up to the courts and lawyers.
there will be 09 Sundays with a DW link.....that in all honesty looks alot like the first glory proto which looked like a sunday. that bike does scream sunday, if IH still had the dw link and was bringing out 09' bikes im fairly sure everyone would would be rushing to the shops.
my hat goes off to dw, firstly for making such a great system which works very well and secondly for trying to fight these guys. i hope in all honesty that the little guy prevails in this story, im sick of seeing big companies rip off the little guy and i think its wrong is such an enclosed community of riders.
im sick of people on here claiming that "no this doesnt infringe" etc. if you want to comment on the design at all please atleast have the knowledge of reading the patent! dont just through comments out willy nilly like that, its stupid and makes you look ignorant.
i have to say i used to be a massive giant fan, but this is icing on the cake and i dont think i would be purchasing one anytime soon. for a company to go and blatantly take someones idea (whether it has been changed a little or not) is disgraceful. if Giant wants to progress then it should do so in the proper and legal manner. i hope they have the courtesy to resolve this in court and not put a prominant designer out of business
^^^ Lololololololol
So is it ok to steal from you?No, your attitude is exactly whats wrong with the world today, the world SHOULD be open source. Business and money are what is holding technology back, ever wonder why lots of technical advancements are made during desperate war times, because money doesn't matter then! Life isn't all about money, if you truly love mountain biking then you would be stoked that your design is being used by a company that has a better capability to get it to the masses then you do, regardless of whether or not your getting paid for it. Great thinkers often SACRIFICE themselves for their work, you should be stoked that Giant is giving access to an awesome suspension design to a very broad audience so more people can enjoy cycling. Problem is too many people in this industry aren't willing to make sacrifices to move the sport along, instead they think the sport should make sacrifices to them, I mean what type of person that truly loves this sport would hold an awesome design back from people just because they aren't making royalties off it?
Its a changing world and just having ideas isn't enough to make a living anymore, you have to get creative. Having someone ripoff your idea and then to come say it sucks on the internet is pretty much as lame as when musicians get pissed off that their music is getting distributed for free online. The world needs to advance and SHARING ideas is what is going to do it for us. If you are really the engineering genius everybody makes you out to be then having big name companies take your designs shouldn't even be a bump in the road but instead a compliment and reassurance that you are going in the right direction. Unfortunately the mountain bike industry is filled with so many cheapskates who (I understand why, obviously gotta put food on the table, but still) act like any loss of profit means they are heading in the wrong direction.
The world and the mountain bike industry needs more creative thinkers and less engineers and businessmen, I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining but the mountain bike industry is the pinnacle of greed and technology hording and I think companies like Giant are doing a really good job of saying f-off we want people to ride good bikes and aren't afraid to play on the edge to do it, and if they make a few bucks along the way then they have learned how to work smart and not work hard. Good for them, they've adapted and learned how to evolve with times (thats why they are successful), you gotta show that you can do the same instead of filing patent claims and clinging to your '15 minutes of fame' suspension design that you came up with years ago. If you can't find a way to make money in this industry other then clinging to one design and trying to contract it out to a few small companies then the industry would probably be better off without you and the dw-link. Bikes are bikes, sure dw link is great but it would be a lot better for the sport to gain some creativity and open minded thinkers as opposed to a few clever designs and a lot of cumbersome business technicalities to go along with them.
How exactly are anyone gonna design a new types of bikes and components if they aren't getting paid? Do you know how much it costs to get an education? Creative thinkers? Wtf? You can't just freestyle up a good bike in your mind without experience. You need education, preferably in engineering if you are gonna make a bike. To afford this you need money. To afford living after your education you need money to be able to be creative. You can't just spit out an awesome idea in 5 minutes. We are talking about months of research at the very least. Wake up and smell the coffee. You live in a dreamworld.The world and the mountain bike industry needs more creative thinkers and less engineers and businessmen,
Sweet, I just started a bike company. The frame designers are liberal arts majors using Microsoft Paint for all engineering and FEA, and my Marketing & Sales team is run by 16 yr olds hired straight from Pinkbike. I'll put you down for 3 bikes now just to save time.The world and the mountain bike industry needs more creative thinkers and less engineers and businessmen, I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining but the mountain bike industry is the pinnacle of greed and technology hording.
No doubt.
stupid has reached new heights in this thread
Yeah but I can't afford to pay you since all my $ is going towards legal fees now. Huffy already stole your design and is marketing the same bike, except they're using TWO rockets instead of one.so after reading byman1999's post, i decied to forget that i am engineer and become a designer. Noone needs engineers anymore. check out my new suspension design.
ninjia edit: I now work for gunner!!!!!
Need a mechanical design engineer?!?!!? CAN I APPLY?!?!?!? I kick wicked ass in MS paint. My years of Solidworks experience carried over nicely. Sure my toolbars are a bit different and hard to get used to, but I make it work. OH! I kick ass at Excel too. I can create spreadsheets that will automatically calculate stresses based on the color hue used in MS paint. Works all the time 60% of the time.so after reading byman1999's post, i decied to forget that i am engineer and become a designer. Noone needs engineers anymore. check out my new suspension design.
ninjia edit: I now work for gunner!!!!!
You can also create thermal gradiants with the air-brush tool.Need a mechanical design engineer?!?!!? CAN I APPLY?!?!?!? I kick wicked ass in MS paint. My years of Solidworks experience carried over nicely. Sure my toolbars are a bit different and hard to get used to, but I make it work. OH! I kick ass at Excel too. I can create spreadsheets that will automatically calculate stresses based on the color hue used in MS paint. Works all the time 60% of the time.
I already have an idea for a frame. It utilizes my "WWDWD?" (what would dave weagle do?) suspension system.
Yep bud u know me down to the ground... So im guessing now that you have been to England come to my house and spent years with me growing up!!!Up until this thread, I thought you seemed like a kid with his head on straight....unfortunately you now seem more like a typical example of so many if your age group....like your typical spoiled kid with no appreciation for the vaue of anything as it has always been 'provided' for you. I could be 100% off base, but your attitude is of someone who has had everything given to them....
It is not 'business', it is illegal...why is it that the majority of teens and early 20 somethings feel they are 'entitled' to what ever they can 'get'.
WAA WAA WAAA
Lets all cry about patents.....
Poor DW...... 1 man show...... with lots of revenues!
Come on...
In my opinion patents are just stupid devices so engineers and nerds can say look at me I did that.
Why not open the patent up and let people improve on it!
The bike industry fights way to much over nonsense.
No, your attitude is exactly whats wrong with the world today, the world SHOULD be open source. Business and money are what is holding technology back, ever wonder why lots of technical advancements are made during desperate war times, because money doesn't matter then! Life isn't all about money, if you truly love mountain biking then you would be stoked that your design is being used by a company that has a better capability to get it to the masses then you do, regardless of whether or not your getting paid for it. Great thinkers often SACRIFICE themselves for their work, you should be stoked that Giant is giving access to an awesome suspension design to a very broad audience so more people can enjoy cycling. Problem is too many people in this industry aren't willing to make sacrifices to move the sport along, instead they think the sport should make sacrifices to them, I mean what type of person that truly loves this sport would hold an awesome design back from people just because they aren't making royalties off it?
Its a changing world and just having ideas isn't enough to make a living anymore, you have to get creative. Having someone ripoff your idea and then to come say it sucks on the internet is pretty much as lame as when musicians get pissed off that their music is getting distributed for free online. The world needs to advance and SHARING ideas is what is going to do it for us. If you are really the engineering genius everybody makes you out to be then having big name companies take your designs shouldn't even be a bump in the road but instead a compliment and reassurance that you are going in the right direction. Unfortunately the mountain bike industry is filled with so many cheapskates who (I understand why, obviously gotta put food on the table, but still) act like any loss of profit means they are heading in the wrong direction.
The world and the mountain bike industry needs more creative thinkers and less engineers and businessmen, I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining but the mountain bike industry is the pinnacle of greed and technology hording and I think companies like Giant are doing a really good job of saying f-off we want people to ride good bikes and aren't afraid to play on the edge to do it, and if they make a few bucks along the way then they have learned how to work smart and not work hard. Good for them, they've adapted and learned how to evolve with times (thats why they are successful), you gotta show that you can do the same instead of filing patent claims and clinging to your '15 minutes of fame' suspension design that you came up with years ago. If you can't find a way to make money in this industry other then clinging to one design and trying to contract it out to a few small companies then the industry would probably be better off without you and the dw-link. Bikes are bikes, sure dw link is great but it would be a lot better for the sport to gain some creativity and open minded thinkers as opposed to a few clever designs and a lot of cumbersome business technicalities to go along with them.
No, your attitude is exactly whats wrong with the world today, the world SHOULD be open source. Business and money are what is holding technology back, ever wonder why lots of technical advancements are made during desperate war times, because money doesn't matter then! Life isn't all about money, if you truly love mountain biking then you would be stoked that your design is being used by a company that has a better capability to get it to the masses then you do, regardless of whether or not your getting paid for it. Great thinkers often SACRIFICE themselves for their work, you should be stoked that Giant is giving access to an awesome suspension design to a very broad audience so more people can enjoy cycling. Problem is too many people in this industry aren't willing to make sacrifices to move the sport along, instead they think the sport should make sacrifices to them, I mean what type of person that truly loves this sport would hold an awesome design back from people just because they aren't making royalties off it?
Its a changing world and just having ideas isn't enough to make a living anymore, you have to get creative. Having someone ripoff your idea and then to come say it sucks on the internet is pretty much as lame as when musicians get pissed off that their music is getting distributed for free online. The world needs to advance and SHARING ideas is what is going to do it for us. If you are really the engineering genius everybody makes you out to be then having big name companies take your designs shouldn't even be a bump in the road but instead a compliment and reassurance that you are going in the right direction. Unfortunately the mountain bike industry is filled with so many cheapskates who (I understand why, obviously gotta put food on the table, but still) act like any loss of profit means they are heading in the wrong direction.
The world and the mountain bike industry needs more creative thinkers and less engineers and businessmen, I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining but the mountain bike industry is the pinnacle of greed and technology hording and I think companies like Giant are doing a really good job of saying f-off we want people to ride good bikes and aren't afraid to play on the edge to do it, and if they make a few bucks along the way then they have learned how to work smart and not work hard. Good for them, they've adapted and learned how to evolve with times (thats why they are successful), you gotta show that you can do the same instead of filing patent claims and clinging to your '15 minutes of fame' suspension design that you came up with years ago. If you can't find a way to make money in this industry other then clinging to one design and trying to contract it out to a few small companies then the industry would probably be better off without you and the dw-link. Bikes are bikes, sure dw link is great but it would be a lot better for the sport to gain some creativity and open minded thinkers as opposed to a few clever designs and a lot of cumbersome business technicalities to go along with them.
I could'a sworn communism was open source.communism & socialism were great ideas too...
on paper.