This isn't frothing.I hate to inform you... but you're frothing.
Frothing involves ranting and raving. I haven't reached that point yet.
Recommend a bike friendly wagon or small SUV
- Thread starter bluebug32
- Start date
Frothing involves ranting and raving. I haven't reached that point yet.
Maybe I just need to go take a dump and relieve some stress.Again, I hate to be the one to point it out...
but yes, you have.
Frother......
If it's frothing out of that end, there's something really wrong.Frother......
Perhaps I exaggerated somewhat. AWD can help you steer, if you know how to use it; I doubt most do. It definitely isn't going to help you stop.
I know...but for most people, rwd is worse than fwd. I was short on time and didn't feel like explaining myself, but I slapped some goodyear euro-market snows on that thing and it would drift so comfortably...once you stopped you were eFFed though.yeah, that'd be a rwd car, bub.
aren't you the one that had the Ur Quattro?
Yes, I did have the UrCoupe...selling it was one of my biggest regrets.
Again, I'll repeat myself, AWD is no replacement for good snow tires. AWD and good snow tires makes a true champ, but DO NOT think you can get away with cheap tires on an awd car, you will be sorely disappointed. I got stuck in my quattro with my summer tires (all seasons, low on tread) on less than an inch of snow. I drove through 6" of fresh powder with my snow tires on. Don't be a dummy.
A good driver with excellent tires will destroy an excellent driver with poor tires. It is so very worth it to own two sets of tires, no matter what car you drive, if you'll be driving in snow for part of the season. If you live south of the border, and you've seen it snow once, you can get away with all-seasons or summer tires.
Please don't try to argue this point...ask any driver and they'll tell you; the biggest engine, the best brakes, the lightest car don't mean anything when you don't have traction. You'll slow down better, turn better, and accelerate better with tires appropriate to the weather.
Don't pretend that because you can 4-wheel drift a car that you can panic turn to avoid an accident just as well.
i'll second the point on snow tires: my rx-8 does quite fantastically in the snow with a proper set of snow tires, with the one exception of climbing steep hills.
winter tires, traction control, a lsd, and a little bit of sanity go a long way to countering rwd, light weight, and a big (low pressure on the ground) footprint.
winter tires, traction control, a lsd, and a little bit of sanity go a long way to countering rwd, light weight, and a big (low pressure on the ground) footprint.
I've driven through 12" of snow with ASRs with good tread. I've also drive FWD with snow tires. AWD FAR outhandles a FWD vehicle with snow tires. If you want a good handling, all condition vehicle, AWD is by far the choice. No other tires necessary, no changing tires, no spinning wheels, no problem.I know...but for most people, rwd is worse than fwd. I was short on time and didn't feel like explaining myself, but I slapped some goodyear euro-market snows on that thing and it would drift so comfortably...once you stopped you were eFFed though.
Yes, I did have the UrCoupe...selling it was one of my biggest regrets.
Again, I'll repeat myself, AWD is no replacement for good snow tires. AWD and good snow tires makes a true champ, but DO NOT think you can get away with cheap tires on an awd car, you will be sorely disappointed. I got stuck in my quattro with my summer tires (all seasons, low on tread) on less than an inch of snow. I drove through 6" of fresh powder with my snow tires on. Don't be a dummy.
A good driver with excellent tires will destroy an excellent driver with poor tires. It is so very worth it to own two sets of tires, no matter what car you drive, if you'll be driving in snow for part of the season. If you live south of the border, and you've seen it snow once, you can get away with all-seasons or summer tires.
Please don't try to argue this point...ask any driver and they'll tell you; the biggest engine, the best brakes, the lightest car don't mean anything when you don't have traction. You'll slow down better, turn better, and accelerate better with tires appropriate to the weather.
Don't pretend that because you can 4-wheel drift a car that you can panic turn to avoid an accident just as well.
And yet AGAIN. FWD is not an option, so forget about it. If it's not AWD, it's crossed off.
Guess you'll have to cross off the Subaru if it doesn't have stability control in the price bracket you are looking at. Toshi can confirm this:
Canadian Driver said:
are you the girl who posted this thread?
I'm not saying she should get a FWD car, I'm just making the point not to keep your head up your rear about refusing to put for the 200$ on new wheels and tires. I spent $150 on 4 near new snow tires, mounted and balanced, plus 4 extra rims, and one extra tire. That's not a lot of money for added security.
If you know exactly what's best for her, why don't you tell her and close this stupid thread? You seem to negate everybody else's comments, no matter what they suggest...I just don't get it.
Buy a subaru to appease the various monkeys, get over the lack of interior space and the cheap interior, and be done with it.
I'm not saying she should get a FWD car, I'm just making the point not to keep your head up your rear about refusing to put for the 200$ on new wheels and tires. I spent $150 on 4 near new snow tires, mounted and balanced, plus 4 extra rims, and one extra tire. That's not a lot of money for added security.
If you know exactly what's best for her, why don't you tell her and close this stupid thread? You seem to negate everybody else's comments, no matter what they suggest...I just don't get it.
Buy a subaru to appease the various monkeys, get over the lack of interior space and the cheap interior, and be done with it.
I would definitely agree. My tires, on my AWD, passed inspection back in September, but definitely needed replacement (low tread) and
I found myself loosing traction on the fresh snow early in the winter. There is NO replacement for good tires (AWD, 4WD or other!)
No I am not the original poster, however I am the one who's working with her to help her decide what she needs. And you're keeping your head up your ass and ignoring the fact that I never said new TIRES are not necessary. I said SNOW tires are unnecessary on an AWD vehicle. I'd challenge you to put snow tires on the Corolla she has now and have it get better traction than an AWD vehicle with good radials. The entire point of this is that hearing about the joys of snow tires is unnecessary. What is wanted is something to put radials on and not worry about it. That's it. And I don't understand why you seem to keep harping on the same point. It's a pain in the ass to have to change tires twice a year, hence the invention of radials. And frankly, why bother with the extra money if your drivetrain is more than sufficient to get you through?
Yes, I negated a lot of comments. I negated an OLD Audi. I negated an Element, and gave reasons why. I negated the idea of an older/high mileage vehicle. Those are not unreasonable comments, especially after her and I have discussed this infinitely more than your input has been considered. People like Syd have given LOADS of useful information on different vehicles that have been mentioned. THAT'S the information that is appreciated, not "dude, get some snow tires and suck it up".
Syd - The traction control (whatever Subaru calls it) is definitely on the radar and is part of the decision. FWIW, I've never had a problem with my Subarus without stability control. I'm not autocrossing in the snow either.
Traction control is different than stability control. The canadian driver article was written about winter driving, not autocrossing. Toshi wasn't autocrossing, he was driving in the rain on the highway. It is still a valid concern. The cheapest 4 cylinder subaru you'll find the VDC (stability control) on is the new 2008 legacy (no longer offered in a wagon) and outback unless you can find a good deal on V6 used (mostly top of the line outback until 06 or 07 MY and then it was limited to certain V6 editions).
Well, the thought I was referring to is tear-assing through the snow isn't the greatest idea I've ever seen either.Traction control is different than stability control. The canadian driver article was written about winter driving, not autocrossing. Toshi wasn't autocrossing, he was driving in the rain on the highway. It is still a valid concern. The cheapest 4 cylinder subaru you'll find the VDC (stability control) on is the new 2008 legacy and outback unless you can find a good deal on V6 used (mostly top of the line outback until 06 or 07 MY and then it was limited to certain V6 editions).
So it's '08 that the stability control comes to the 4 cylinder Outbacks. I was curious when you mentioned that (didn't see it on Subaru's site). I can't even begin to read that chart, so I'll have to ask what are they anticipating the price of the SC option on the 2.5i model Outbacks?
I think the H6 Outbacks are out of the question d/t the gas mileage and high initial cost.
Ok, and here's the next thought:
The Outback (figuring no VDC system) is mechanical AWD with viscous limited slip front and limited slip in the rear. The Rav4 is electronic 4WD (electronic on demand) with Traciton control and VSC. Which turns out being the more reliable and consistent handling system?
The Outback (figuring no VDC system) is mechanical AWD with viscous limited slip front and limited slip in the rear. The Rav4 is electronic 4WD (electronic on demand) with Traciton control and VSC. Which turns out being the more reliable and consistent handling system?
Jesus Christ....she's not going to be driving up Mt. Everest. Have her drive a RAV4 and a Subaru and which ever one has the better stereo wins.
Have her drive a RAV4 and a Subaru and which ever one has the better stereo wins.I would guess around upper 26 to 27K flat with the IMBA invoice deal on the 4cylinder Limited. VDC doesn't add very much to the price.
I posted an better version of the 08 information easier to understand in my original post with the chart. Find the 2008 Legacy/Outback NASIOC thread here.
I like Tigg's line of thinking. But I'd think whichever includes a hitch rack for cheaper would get the nod.Jesus Christ....she's not going to be driving up Mt. Everest.
That too!I like Tigg's line of thinking. But I'd think whichever includes a hitch rack for cheaper would get the nod.
This should be the last post of the thread.Jesus Christ....she's not going to be driving up Mt. Everest.
No I am not the original poster, however I am the one who's working with her to help her decide what she needs. And you're keeping your head up your ass and ignoring the fact that I never said new TIRES are not necessary. I said SNOW tires are unnecessary on an AWD vehicle. I'd challenge you to put snow tires on the Corolla she has now and have it get better traction than an AWD vehicle with good radials. The entire point of this is that hearing about the joys of snow tires is unnecessary. What is wanted is something to put radials on and not worry about it. That's it. And I don't understand why you seem to keep harping on the same point. It's a pain in the ass to have to change tires twice a year, hence the invention of radials. And frankly, why bother with the extra money if your drivetrain is more than sufficient to get you through?
Yes, I negated a lot of comments. I negated an OLD Audi. I negated an Element, and gave reasons why. I negated the idea of an older/high mileage vehicle. Those are not unreasonable comments, especially after her and I have discussed this infinitely more than your input has been considered. People like Syd have given LOADS of useful information on different vehicles that have been mentioned. THAT'S the information that is appreciated, not "dude, get some snow tires and suck it up".
Syd - The traction control (whatever Subaru calls it) is definitely on the radar and is part of the decision. FWIW, I've never had a problem with my Subarus without stability control. I'm not autocrossing in the snow either.
I would gladly take that challenge. Even a corolla with studded 185s will run circles around most AWD cars with fat all seasons.
I never said "dude". I said you stand a better chance of getting stuck with all seasons on AWD, RWD, or FWD.
Snow tires are radial. All tires except for on lifted trucks are steel-belted radials. They have been for a long time (1970). Bias-ply tires are inferior for most driving conditions.
http://www.wisegeek.com/do-i-need-to-use-different-tires-in-the-summer-and-winter.htm
Plus, you should have your tires taken off at least once a year to check for damage, do brake work, or rotate your tires. That sure seems like a fair time to me to swap them for winter tires.
I'm sorry to have sidetracked this topic, I'll bow out. You can slide around all you want to, but the benefits of proper tires don't need to be argued. Would you run pythons on a dh bike? Or gazzalodi's on a xc race?
BlueBug, I don't care which car you buy, but seriously, do yourself a favor and invest in decent tires. It's an excellent choice to buy an AWD car, the benefits are immense in all conditions, but if deep snow and snowstorms are going to be a big part of your driving, you should factor in an extra little bit of money for good tires. There's one thing I'm sure about, and that's that your tires matter more than anything else on your car.
Toyota is infamous for their overly protective kill joy electro nanny VSC systems. Performance drivers hate it because its way too conservative, it won't let you drive very close to the vehicle's limits.
That said, Subaru AWD with VDC is supposedly more conservative than the Audi, BMW, or Benz Torsen (mechanical) AWD systems with stability control.
Also note CRV and RAV4 have better rated braking results than the Subaru:
Latest CR braking - Dry/Wet
07 redesign CRV 135/139
06 redesign RAV4 132/139
05 current Outback 141/158
Seriously, Rob, you're acting like you live in the tundra. Middle of NY does not the arctic make.Jesus Christ....she's not going to be driving up Mt. Everest.
If my 88 Accord with snow tires made it up snowpacked 10k foot mountain canyons, any FWD car will. AWD in cars for snow is mostly marketing unless you're in it for the performance, IMHO.
Don't buy an OEM hitch - they'll rob you. Buy it from www.etrailer.com or www.hitch-web.com if you DIY or get it installed at u-haul (or similar).I like Tigg's line of thinking. But I'd think whichever includes a hitch rack for cheaper would get the nod.
Same goes for factory stereos - major rip off and usually the premium stereo offered is pathetic compared to an aftermarket alpine or pioneer system.
Ding, ding, ding....give the man a beer!Jesus Christ....she's not going to be driving up Mt. Everest.
As for everyone else in the ring, chill out (Rob included
). I'm a chick who wants to feel safe, be able to leave the house in the snow, haul my bike safely, and have some cash left over for other more important things.
Sounds like you need a FWD vehicle with snow tires.Ding, ding, ding....give the man a beer!
As for everyone else in the ring, chill out (Rob included
I have a cheap friend with a FWD corolla with snow tires but he uses them year roundSounds like you need a FWD vehicle with snow tires.
I've had two in the past. No dice. As long as I'm buying a car, I might as well feel safe.Sounds like you need a FWD vehicle with snow tires.
As my father always told me:
"Fernando.... it is better to look good than to feel good."
Helpful information for used car prospects...
Warranty Direct is the consumer division of one of the largest independent car warranty providers in the United States and Canada. We are a 27 year old company with the experience of nearly 2 million extended warranty contracts sold and over $500,000,000 in paid claims. In addition to offering our coverage direct to consumers, over 2,200 manufacturers, car dealers, banks and credit unions choose to market our automobile extended warranties.automotive.com said:
I question *any* reliability study which has Citroen in the top 10.
^ and Mazda! There is no way in hell that has any credibility here in NA. Ever own a 90's mazda? Its the Japanese Ford.
As it says 33 different car companies for cars aged between 3-9 years old.
Mazdas have several distinct technical difference than their Ford counterparts and most are made in Japan, not the US.
I like the Mazdas, but they're all FWD.
not true! my rx-8 is rwd
as is the venerable miata/mx-5and the mazdaspeed3, mazdaspeed6, cx-7, cx-9, tribute, and the truck lineup are available in awd.
No they come in AWD (CX7 and Tribute). Tribute is outdated if you are buying new.
Interesting, I'll have to check that out. Thanks.not true! my rx-8 is rwd
and the mazdaspeed3, mazdaspeed6, cx-7, cx-9, tribute, and the truck lineup are available in awd.
Chances are I'll be going used.
Watch out on this option too...I installed my own Reese hitch (and for a LOT less than the dealer option) because I wanted a 2" receiver and the dealership hitch was only a 1 1/4". I wanted the 2" because I have a Sportworks DH/FR Rack and didn't want to use the adaptor because it stuck out a bit further and wasn't nearly as stable.I like Tigg's line of thinking. But I'd think whichever includes a hitch rack for cheaper would get the nod.