[DBR X6 RIDER]

It has come to my attention that several people were out there on Sunday (the same time they run the Cyclocross races) and were crossing the race-tape and walking up the road. This led to that and eventually Wick, the person that oversees ALL the trails at SST, made a visit to the flow-park.
I heard he was given quite a rude reception (as well as a cyclocross official) and was lied to as well. I'm not giving names as those people know who they are. Needless to say, if you want to be respected you must also respect.
More importantaly, Wick did a walkthru of the section and said everything is basically OK, but the large gap after the table has to go, as well as the other double after it along the trail.
IF THE GAP WAS NOT REMOVED THEN THE REMAINDER OF THE JUMPS WOULD BE PLOWED DOWN AS WELL.

So the bad news is that the large gap and subsequent jump following it have to go - the good news is that the rest of the section will remain intact...so long as there's nothing crazy-huge out there.
Yes, he saw the larger stepdown gap - I guess since it's not directly on the main trail and people that won't hit it know better, he must have figured he'd leave that one for us. That was cool of him.

In the future, if you are forced to interact with either a race official or a person that manages trails, I would seriously appreciate it if you talk to them in a respectful manner. Remember, what one person says can be taken as a direct reflection of how the dozens of other people are viewed.

As Wick has told my friends in the past, if you want to build the big-hit stuff, you know where it belongs - across the creek (aka - Softies).

Needless to say, if you come across us leveling the big gap below, don't get pissed at us - it's not our call on this other than we must cut a limb off to preserve the body.
We will likely leave it there until Tuesday for sentimental value/last hits, but will have to take it down after that.

I hope this doesn't cause a big to-do with the builders of that gap (wasn't us). All I know is myself and a few other people have done TOO much down there in the last year to have one poorly located jump ruin it all.

Any comments/complaints can be posted on this thread or just PM/e-mail me.

 

[seand]

im going to hate tearing the gap down, but after talking with Wick yesterday for a while, it has to be done.

As I told you andy; going over future building plans with Wick was a good idea as he provided yes' and no's for our plans giving us a means for building practices.


To all:

please respect the hard work all the builders, maintainers, and those that deal with the redtape have put in and dont build big to suite yourselves.
andy, pip, scottie, mike...lots of blood, sweat, and shovel hours went into cutting in the first flowy lines for last falls premiere, and a ton of us have also picked up shovels and started adding out own touches and love to the area. i love progression, but SST is not the place for high consequence stunts. There is no insurance for the area and one big mistake while riding can/will lead to the total destruction of an amazing local riding spot. just be respectful of all the energy/time put in and dont be selfish. its a place for everyone.

we are going to put up a bulliten board at the bottom for a means of communicating upcoming events, changes in the area, etc. Wick accepted that idea with open arms and asked for a spot on the board for him to post stuff so we all know whats coming up to be prepared to change our ways of doing stuff...EG - walking up our trails to avoid the road when a race is in session.

One of the race officials exchanged words with me. He asked me to ask people to not walk up the road since everyone he had spoken to gave him attitude: there is NO reason for this. We have to co-exist with xc riders, cyclecross racers, and the other random events that occur at SST. It is a mass-use public place that we run the risk of losing if we dont act respectfully.

Wick told me he is willing to work with us as long as we adhere to his requests and, to be honest, he doesnt have any outrageous requests. No large gaps, respect others, and ride safely. He really liked the signs Andy put up around informing people where to and where not to exit the trails, and asked that we put more signage up if we see fit.


Enjoy the gaps at the bottom while you can; come tomorrow mr andy and myself will be, dreadfully, tearing them down

-sean

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

Yeah, tearing sh*t down kind of goes against my way of being.

All the same - what has to be done has to be done.
We all started building the trails up so we had a place to ride in the 'off-season' that would keep our skill levels up to par. Also, some stuff that would challenge us and others without any serious risks. We've seen a few places leveled in years gone by due to structures/jumps being way beyond the grasp of the majority of people that rode these places.
Seattle has been home to over 1,000,000 lawyers for several years now. Trailbuilding has to be done with some consideration of that fact...otherwise one finds out the hard way about the army of lawyers.

Anyway, I think there can at least be a nice hip jump incorporated into that corner of slab that is sticking out of the ground. At the same time, there is that slab jump thingy that is pointing in the general direction of Miguel's double-line. Perhaps both?

First things first - must level the gap that I haven't (and now won't) clear.*sigh*

 

[dirtjumper]

It is a shame that you have to tear the gap down. This park is so dope on so many levels for all kinds of riders. It sucks for all of us who put in all the work moving dirt and removing large rocks to hear that there is this possibilty of SST being torn down. There trully is no need for supper large gaps on this trail for only a handfull of people that can hit it. I have put way to much work in the last year 1/2 for it to be torn down. If needed I will help you tear down the big gap. I just talked with one of the other builders and he is also not in a good mood.

 

[oly]

Sounds like basic common sence. Ive only been there 2-3 times to trail ride as my DH bike is always at home, and my XC bike at work when ride plans happen. Im hoping to some day get out there on the big bike to have fun (i did rip through a couple times on my trail bike and it was a blast) It would be a shame for a few to ruin the fun for the many. Too bad most young punks dont realize that till they turn into old punks.

 

[ioscope]

AC2
avid disc brakes
fights man with shovel
refuses to walk up road...
I'm just guessing at who this was on the basis of assholishness

 

[huckerAJ]

Wick is an A$$hole and should just go away. He rudely interupted me one day and proceeded to be a D!CK .... I told him to step up or shut up and he wouldnt....hes a major punk. I hope to see him in a dark alley........

 

[seand]

Wick is an A$$hole and should just go away. He rudely interupted me one day and proceeded to be a D!CK .... I told him to step up or shut up and he wouldnt....hes a major punk. I hope to see him in a dark alley........

problem is...
wick has a big mouth that many people listen to because he wont stop talking. if we appease wick with a plan that satisfies the majority of riders, life will be more peaceful for everyone in the long run...ya know?

i agree, the whole situation stinks, but what can you do? its better to lose one battle and prevent war, than to fight a battle to eventually lose the war.

 

[huckerAJ]

your conceding defeat before the battle begins.....He does not own the land and we just want a little piece.....

 

[seand]

he has the ears of council members of both burien and des moines and has insurance coverage for his activities. the land we are using for this park is on the path he used for his wednesday evening rides.

he does not own the land, but wick has far more stewardship over it than any of us do. we have to tread lightly seeing as there was no previous acceptence, agreement, or approval of what has become of that land from the governing councilers.

how would a battle such as this be won?

doing and then asking forgiveness is not something any government official is a fan of. neither is building objects that will cause potential liability lawsuits against the government.

as wick said, he is turning a blind eye to everything despite the fact that it is illegally built with zero insurance from the city while using their land for our recreation.

if you could come up with a means to win such a battle, im all ears, but realistically, its a battle being lost coast to coast as well as in our northern neighbours riding spots.

 

[evilbob]

Wick is an A$$hole and should just go away. He rudely interupted me one day and proceeded to be a D!CK .... I told him to step up or shut up and he wouldnt....hes a major punk. I hope to see him in a dark alley........

You may not like him but at this point he is about the best thing going at SST for big bike interest. If he wasn't just a little bit on our side SST would look like St. Eds/Finn Hill does now..........FLAT FLAT FLAT. Keep in mind kiddies if you don't own the dirt your self you build on borrowed time at someone elses grace. Don't offend, don't be belligerent and most of all when someone (or their rep)wants their dirt used a different way (or not at all) than you would use it don't cry and wine and call them things. That does not help at all, never has and never will. Sorry!

 

[bibs]

Bob, Wick started the fight with aj, not the other way around. Wick is a prick, he was a dick to me two years ago when i went ot race his race. Lawerance is who is in charge of the land, not wick....If you want somting approved..talk ot Larwance!...**** wick

 

[bibs]

he has the ears of council members of both burien and des moines and has insurance coverage for his activities. the land we are using for this park is on the path he used for his wednesday evening rides.

he does not own the land, but wick has far more stewardship over it than any of us do. we have to tread lightly seeing as there was no previous acceptence, agreement, or approval of what has become of that land from the governing councilers.

how would a battle such as this be won?

doing and then asking forgiveness is not something any government official is a fan of. neither is building objects that will cause potential liability lawsuits against the government.

as wick said, he is turning a blind eye to everything despite the fact that it is illegally built with zero insurance from the city while using their land for our recreation.

if you could come up with a means to win such a battle, im all ears, but realistically, its a battle being lost coast to coast as well as in our northern neighbours riding spots.

Why dont we get stewardship, this is rediculous. Wick blabs his mouth and makes oyu guys think he is some one...hes not..one of easly could have the same power. Lets do somthing, Im sick of him telling us what we can or can not do. All he does is but permits to use the land....City of Des MOines owns it..so lets do somthing around him. Im sick of getting pushed around by assholes..... :eviltongu

 

[evilbob]

Bob, Wick started the fight with aj, not the other way around. Wick is a prick, he was a dick to me two years ago when i went ot race his race. Lawerance is who is in charge of the land, not wick....If you want somting approved..talk ot Larwance!...**** wick

Sorry, not defending wick at all, I know what he is like. I just find it amazing how we all (me included) forget that we build often where we are not wanted (or approved 1st) and then gripe about loosing all our effort later on. Going back and reading my post it appears even to me that I was harping on AJ and completely defending wick and for that I appologize especialy to AJ....Sorry Dude my bad, please forgive..

 

[seand]

Why dont we get stewardship, this is rediculous. Wick blabs his mouth and makes oyu guys think he is some one...hes not..one of easly could have the same power. Lets do somthing, Im sick of him telling us what we can or can not do. All he does is but permits to use the land....City of Des MOines owns it..so lets do somthing around him. Im sick of getting pushed around by assholes..... :eviltongu

actually, the city of seatac owns it. the parks/recs dept of seatac owns the des moines creek park area (which is what this area is).

in order for us to take stewardship of this land, we would have to provide insurance for all riders, builders, and hikers of the area. we would also have to get building permits to continue to construct anything on the land.

i initiated contact with the parks/rec depatment of seatac regarding the land we are using but do not want to bring it to their attention that we have already built on it, giving them an excuse to say "you never asked, its illegal, consider it gone". very sensitive situation...suckage

so many people have put so much time into this i want to do all i can to help protect it.

 

[evilbob]

Why dont we get stewardship, this is rediculous. Wick blabs his mouth and makes oyu guys think he is some one...hes not..one of easly could have the same power. Lets do somthing, Im sick of him telling us what we can or can not do. All he does is but permits to use the land....City of Des MOines owns it..so lets do somthing around him. Im sick of getting pushed around by assholes..... :eviltongu

Hhhmm, good idea. Maybe someone should get a permit on a regular basis to host ride clinics there. Permits to hold clinics like you did recently would justify the existance of the jump/drop lines that are out there. Can't very well tear them down if there is an official permit/s to use them. neaky: Same with the Softies......then wick couldn't say anything.

 

[ioscope]

Don't be against wick, at least he advocates for bikes in general. It's better thyan dealing with horse people.

 

[jimbo_the_biker]

Thats a pretty good idea evilbob.
Plus, the clinics look kinda fun.
I don't see why we even go through wick. If he can have XC races, we can have our stuff. You can get hurt just as bad doing XC stuff. Heck, at least we wear armor! If anything our stuff might be safer. We don't blaze around on trails for miles on end, we just go up and down a little section over and over. Chances of running into/over people is far less in the flow section.
Perhaps we could raise some money to get the insurance/permits or whatever. We could get GHY to print a bunch of "wick's a dick, save SST" shirts or something, kinda like the lance armstrong wristbands.

-James.

 

[Skookum]

Wick dick prick hmmm i'm starting to see a pattern here.....

Feelings aside, when it comes down to politics, the most important thing is to keep it open to everybody. i personally was suprised when they didn't bulldoze it after the summer(which i agree those clowns don't have to threaten with that crap). Beyond the petty threats it sounds like a pretty good common ground is being established by Mt. Bikers that use the area, no need to let personal feelings ruin a fairly cool situation.
i mean if the ball keeps rolling, the percieved power of said Wick will not be such an issue. If hoops are jumped thru, bigger things will eventually get worked out i would think.....

i used to ride there before it was legal, just like i know this guy who put in a ton of work that eventually became Softies(or at least he claims i used to work with the guy i've seen his shovel work on the roof hmmm), Wick's crew put in a lot of time and effort on trails and races. Now while i agree i can't stand the dude (even though i did like some Control Tech products...) i don't want my personal feelings or decisions contribute to getting the place possibly shut down.
And i don't think that all of Wicks idea's are put out there to hurt or just help only himself either. Damn i hate defending this dude..... somebody please shoot me.....
S. Seatac is turning out to be a really cool place from EVERYONE'S help. So basically until they level it by slapping 509 thru it, i just wanna see ALL kinds of mt. bikes allowed in there.
Racer's reading this clean up your stupid tape and stop squirting your frikkin flourescent orange paint on rocks and roots. It looks like crap and if you can't handle them (even on a CX bike) you deserve to crash.... Thank you......

 

[seand]

Hhhmm, good idea. Maybe someone should get a permit on a regular basis to host ride clinics there. Permits to hold clinics like you did recently would justify the existance of the jump/drop lines that are out there. Can't very well tear them down if there is an official permit/s to use them. neaky: Same with the Softies......then wick couldn't say anything.

Bob,

I am getting the ball rolling with one of the council members at the city of seatac to see what exactly is required to make this area legal and accepted so it doesnt turn into another 76, finn, or stay on target. We have had enough massacres of local riding spots. When I hear back, hopefully tomorrow, I will see how far we have to go (forwards or backwards) to be inline with what the city requires.


-Sean

 

[ioscope]

"All the people in city hall, they fvckin' it up, fo' the people tha's in the streets ah."
-Jack Black

 

[oly]

Could BBTC lend a hand at something like this? Or wasnt there some other FREERIDE club starting to address this sort of thing?(thinking back some time to old RM posts)

 

[seand]

i just shot an email off to my fellow officers at nsmba to see if there is anyone down here from imba or bbtc that they can put me in contact with in regards to this.

surely slaving over the damn website for nsmba has to provide SOME international aide

we should see how much it would cost to be insured through imba as an organization. then start up sst-freeriders or some other corny name..pay our dues and call it done.

 

[jimbo_the_biker]

SST is a cool place, I can't imagine them shutting us down.
Perhaps we should all start signing a petition or something. Get a bunch of signatures to show them how many people want to keep the place open. I'm sure at least 100 riders use it every week.

-James.

 

[seand]

I just got in touch with a local imba officer to see if he can offer any assistance with this situation.

more to come...

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

Or, we could just get stewardship over that particular area...I'm all for that.
Like I mentioned to Sean, it's not that I'm not good at politics, I just don't like them. He's had to deal with several of these issues for sure thru NSMBA, so I say "full-steam-ahead" with the idea.
I just joined BBTC several weeks back, so I will throw a few lines out thru there to see what actions are best suited for this particular scenario.

In the meantime, we need to act as courteous and respectful to anybody that we come across out there - regardless of how ignorant/blatant the other person(s) may be. If we manage to maintain a good image with the general public, that can only help the cause in the long run.
You many even make a new friend as well!

The wheels are already turning, so please do not do anything to tarnish these efforts.

 

[bibs]

Bob,

I am getting the ball rolling with one of the council members at the city of seatac to see what exactly is required to make this area legal and accepted so it doesnt turn into another 76, finn, or stay on target. We have had enough massacres of local riding spots. When I hear back, hopefully tomorrow, I will see how far we have to go (forwards or backwards) to be inline with what the city requires.


-Sean

nie work Sean, oyur right I had forgotten that when I called Des MOines they transfered me over to Sea-Tac...oops..but somthign needs and can be done abou thtis...

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

nie work Sean, oyur right I had forgotten that when I called Des MOines they transfered me over to Sea-Tac...oops..but somthign needs and can be done abou thtis...

I think it's almost time for an intervention with those percocets, Cory.

Yeah, this process has been a long time coming, really. I guess it just took an incident like yesterday's to get the ball rolling.
Just to keep things to a dull-simmer for now, we're going to pull the gap.
It really is in a bad location as far as being right along the main trail and was not built properly as-is. The landing should have been totally boxed as well as the takeoff ramp. If it were not along the main trail, I am sure it would not have been the issue it has turned out to be.
We make our mistakes and we move on from there.

I believe that even if/WHEN we do obtain stewardship over the area, there are likely going to be limits to what we can/cannot do. I'm willing to accept those 'standards' if it means the area is legitimized.

I hope we find out sooner than later.

 

[evilbob]

Bob,

I am getting the ball rolling with one of the council members at the city of seatac to see what exactly is required to make this area legal and accepted so it doesnt turn into another 76, finn, or stay on target. We have had enough massacres of local riding spots. When I hear back, hopefully tomorrow, I will see how far we have to go (forwards or backwards) to be inline with what the city requires.


-Sean

Awesome!

 

[Bullitrider]

If you go through proper channels, the councils says yes, but no gaps, does this mean the dirt jumps will be shut down? Just trying to help think it through. From what I've heard, the locals have been enjoying those for a lot longer than the flow section and I would hate to see the bike community more fractured than it already is.

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

If you go through proper channels, the councils says yes, but no gaps, does this mean the dirt jumps will be shut down? Just trying to help think it through. From what I've heard, the locals have been enjoying those for a lot longer than the flow section and I would hate to see the bike community more fractured than it already is.

If you're referring to Softies, that is an area we are never going to -
A) touch
B) bring up
C) acknowledge
That is somebody else's fish to fry.

It's been less than a day since I e-mailed folks at BBTC, so I would expect some kind of response in the next day or so. I e-mailed their IMBA rep., by the way. It seems like they've acknowledged the freeriding community as of late, so I'm sure they know what hoops need to be jumped thru, etc.

All I do know at this point is that everybody should enjoy what is out there for now...there's no telling how long it will remain (let alone remain as it is) if it's a no-go w/ city council.
If we had known that we were about to create a 'monster' of sorts a little over a year ago, we would have approached this issue back then. It all started out so innocently.

 

[Snacks]

I believe that even if/WHEN we do obtain stewardship over the area, there are likely going to be limits to what we can/cannot do. I'm willing to accept those 'standards' if it means the area is legitimized.

I hope we find out sooner than later.

What does it mean to have stewardship over the area?

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

What does it mean to have stewardship over the area?

Alot more than what we have right now.
We would be able to 'legally' build and maintain the area we're at within limits prescribed by city council. We would also have to insure the area for liability purposes...makes lawyers happier.

It would also mean we could give Wick the proper salute when he came around trying to tell us what we can/can't have there.

 

[Snacks]

Alot more than what we have right now.
We would be able to 'legally' build and maintain the area we're at within limits prescribed by city council. We would also have to insure the area for liability purposes...makes lawyers happier.

It would also mean we could give Wick the proper salute when he came around trying to tell us what we can/can't have there.

So you would go though NORBA for the insurance, like a riding club? Have you worked with them before on getting insurance for an area?

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

So you would go though NORBA for the insurance, like a riding club? Have you worked with them before on getting insurance for an area?

I have not.
Sean has in his work with NSMBA, so he's going to be doing alot of the 'dirty work' in that department (thanks, Sean!!). He's also going thru the IMBA, which will be who we ultimately work with I'm sure.
Trailbuilding is still a relatively new thing in my life, let alone the political aspect of it. I guess I'll be learning that aspect soon enough.
Mmmmmmm...political tightropes.

 

[Snacks]

So does Wick have stewardship over the area now? And who grants it? The city?

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

So does Wick have stewardship over the area now? And who grants it? The city?

Those are questions we are seeking to find the answers for.
I'm pretty sure it would come down to the city council for ultimate approval since it is a city park and not a state or county park.

Dear God, the hoops of fire we'd have to jump thru for either of those two systems to approve anything would be quite the nightmare-and-a-half.

 

[jimbo_the_biker]

We've got enough grave sized holes dug there though.. I think we could hide the bodies of all that oppose our little section. haha.
I'm looking forwards to that place going legit though. Then we'll know what we can/can't build for sure. And maybe even enforce the "no walking up the trail with dogs" stuff. Injuries are bound to happen with people walking carelessly through there.

-james.

 

[seand]

as i am sure many of you have noticed by now...the gap at the bottom is gone

it took andy n' me ~2 hours to tear it down. You would be surprised what was actually inside the takeoff:
-the bench that we used to use to sit on and store our bags on that vanished a while back...yeah that was in there
-enough deadfall to rebuild a small forest
-treated wood with rusty nails
kinda scary and if someone else tore that down and saw what was packed in, who knows how they would have reacted as far as safety is concerned.

we also tore out some of the tranny which had a ton of deadfall in it too. we piled all of the deadfall for mike to use for his doubles in a place that was out of everyones way.

the gap afterwards no longer has a tranny. we left the take-off there since it was built on a rather large fallen tree. the idea is going to be using that and making the take-off a hipper and create a new trail in the woods after it. that way the line goes longer, stays out of the way of the xc riders, and still gives us more to ride.

all that aside...

instead of just destroying the stunt and leaving the area for dead, we took the dirt, moved some rocks/slabs and built a hipper at the bottom that will satisfy all the skeptics of that gap. we used the foundation that was sticking out of the ground as a support structure, and built the tranny that was there to be a perfect landing for the take-off.

the hipper isnt a huge gap, it isnt a monsterous take-off/landing by any means...its just something else to flow over to help up your abilities.

while there, we did a bunch of drainage work to get the standing water off the trails, we stomped in a bunch of the new stuff that was getting washed away from the down pour...

hopefully everyone enjoys the hipper at the bottom. we know its not what was there, but its better to have something to enjoy than to have nothing to ride


i have gotten a reply for the parks/rec guy from seatac. its just the basic initial communication starting up, but as i find out what needs to be done to protect both our butts and the riding area, as well as the city's butts from lawsuits, i will post it up.

if anyone wants to yell at us for all of this, or chat it up about where we are in regards to the city, or just stick a stick in our spokes....come up and do so

-sean

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

And maybe even enforce the "no walking up the trail with dogs" stuff. Injuries are bound to happen with people walking carelessly through there.

-james.

A major misconception. No matter what, this is a public park. Dog-walkers have as much, if not more, right to that area than we do.
It's our responsibility to be alert/aware of other users of every kind out there.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread - we have no exclusive right to that area, nor should we act in such a manner.

Good deal, Sean. Again, thanks for the 'behind the scening' that you're doing for not only us, but everybody that has a stake in that place.

On a side note, I found out Wick's e-mail address and sent him a civilized e-mail with my phone number. This way, he can contact me if/when there are future incidents of any kind...rather than have to argue with immature/arrogant kids like he had to on Sunday.

In other words people, let us deal with Wick and the politics involved with this area for now - the last thing we need is somebody else mouthing off to him for no reason and getting it all shut down while we're in the process of trying to keep it running.
I thank everybody in advance.

p.s. - NO - I will not give out Wick's e-mail address.