[Udi]

The 40 is only 2mm taller than the Boxxer, but the 40 has longer stanchions (they stick out the top more), so it has more range of height adjustment if you want it.

I must say, -2.5* is pretty crazy, are you riding really steep tracks? No problems keeping the front wheel weighted on flatter corners? I guess it's hard to judge, as compression damping and spring rates + f/r bias make a big difference to these numbers dynamically.

Edit -
Just did some more measurements, hopefully it will make more sense now. I just lowered my fork 4mm, and it still has a whopping 235mm of exposed stanchion, A-C height is about 598mm. That's 28-30mm higher than a stock 40/Boxxer.

BB is now 13.74". I measured the stock head angle at 64.5, and 63.5 after -1 cups (boxxer, min height). Assuming +1" of fork extension = 1* slacker HA, then 62.5* actually makes sense. I'm happy with that, my hack ass needs the clearance!

 

[BmxConvert]

The 40 isn't taller than the Boxxer (well, they're within 2mm of each other at minimum height - about 570mm A-C) but the 40 has longer stanchions (they stick out the top more), so it has more range of height adjustment if you want it.

I must say, -2.5* is pretty crazy, are you riding really steep tracks? No problems keeping the front wheel weighted on flatter corners? I guess it's hard to judge, as compression damping and spring rates + f/r bias make a big difference to these numbers dynamically.

Don't trust my head angle either, not sure how accurate the iphone is. I had good results with magnetic angle finders in the past, but haven't got one here.

Stanchion length is what I was reffing to as being taller.
On my local trail, we've got some real steep stuff, but then theres a good 3 minute flat section with sharp flat corners. I haven't had any issues yet.
I think I notice myself steering more with the rear wheel than anything else on the flat corners, which is something I started doing on my Demo. As I come into a corner, I weight the front tire and then push the rear end out and around the corner, as I pass the apex I lean back and put the weight bias on the rear wheel then start pedaling out of the corner.
I'm going to do some more runs on a flatter track today with 1 steep shoot. We'll see how it goes.

After I installed my -1.5* cup alone a buddies Android said my HA was 67*. Yes I had the bearing offset so it was closest to the seattube. I really didn't trust that at all so I didn't bother to ask him to measure with the -1,-1.5* cups.

 

[yetihenry]

Malcolm from Canecreeks reccomendations:

Henry, on the Sundays most liked a fast rebound. The newer DB does have enough range to get there and then some. Below are settings from IH riders - Note these are an average and every rider is different.

Open all adjusters counter clockwise. Be careful with the low speed adjusters they have small clicks, when you get near the end of the adjustment range and you feel resistance stop.

Now Turn Adjusters clockwise

HSR- 0.5-1.5 turns in from all out
LSR – 10-15 clicks from all out
HSC - 1.0-1.5 turns in from all out
LSC – 12-15 clicks in from all out


Thanks,

Malcolm Hadley
www.canecreek.com

He seems to think a lot more low speed.

Can't wait for Uni to be over so I can start shuttling and getting it dialled for me.

 

[Udi]

Malcolm is an amazingly great guy to deal with, but I found the settings suggested in the manual were WAY off what I'd consider ideal, and I'm not sure about those ones either.

The cool thing about the CC is that you can try 101 different setups (as Malcolm says, the newer 2010+ model has a lot more range too) so there's no single correct answer, but I personally felt the shock worked better with more on the HS adjusters, and less on the LS ones. I also found that you could keep the settings for both compression and rebound very similar to start off with.

The Sunday is by no means a poppy bike, and I found anything I could do to make it a bit more lively was useful - better compliance on loose stuff, and easier to clear obstacles / jumps. Anyway you can always try it a few different ways, let us know how you go.

After I installed my -1.5* cup alone a buddies Android said my HA was 67*. Yes I had the bearing offset so it was closest to the seattube. I really didn't trust that at all so I didn't bother to ask him to measure with the -1,-1.5* cups.

Yeah, it definitely looks slacker than that in the picture, and stock is a bit slacker than 65 from what I measured. I'd guess it's at least 63, keep us updated on how it goes!

 

[Sandwich]

Hey so I could use a little help trying to tune my dhx. This weekend I opened up/reduced bottom out without changing air pressure and the rear end woke up. Previously I had bottom out cranked down and I've been running about 125psi or so. The bike would ramp up really hard about 2/3 of the way into travel, now it doesn't ramp up so hard, it's a little smoother. What gives?

 

[Gary]

the pressure reduces as you unwind bottom out, try running less pressure if you like it livelier.. I like a lively back end too IIRC I run about 90psi in my DHX (no bottom out) and fairly quick rebound.

 

[Sandwich]

the pressure reduces as you unwind bottom out, try running less pressure if you like it livelier.. I like a lively back end too IIRC I run about 90psi in my DHX (no bottom out) and fairly quick rebound.

I'll give that a shot.

By "no bottom out" do you mean you have the chamber wound all the way out, to the negative side? The tuning suggestion in post 1 suggests winding it all the way in/positive side. That's where I've been running it but it's always felt like crap.

My shock may not have the "sunday tune" as it was second hand. I have rebound fully cranked out and I still feel that it could be faster.

 

[Gary]

mine's the OEM DHX3, it has no boost valve or bottom out adjusters.
not sure where (in clicks/turns) my rebound is set, but fully would off it would def top-out.

 

[BmxConvert]

Yeah, it definitely looks slacker than that in the picture, and stock is a bit slacker than 65 from what I measured. I'd guess it's at least 63, keep us updated on how it goes!

I punched out 11 runs yesterday and loved the geometry. Flat corners still felt really good. The only place I found the front wheel pushing was in steep corners where I had to shift my weight in prep for the next corner("S" style). It never left me feeling uneasy or unpredictable.
I changed the suspension around a bit. I'm 160lbs with gear. I run a 300lb rear spring with 34% sag. I ended up keeping the bottom out cranked all the way end, but bumped up the pressure to 180psi. I dropped the LSC back down to 6 clicks from open.
The shock now ramps up really smooth on spots that were giving me a harsh bottom out.
I'm really comfortable on the bike now.
I think I want to grab a taller/longer stem. I've got a Sunline stem and 19mm bar and it's cozy but a touch snug.

 

[m.m.w.]

Just to mention there has been a discussion about the alignment of headset bearings with differently angled cups:
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200133&highlight=angle+change

However, I tried to have my offset cups aligned as proper as possible.

 

[Sandwich]

hmm...my DHX has a min pressure of 125...I'm going to stick with that as I'm scared of cavitating issues and I guess just back the bottom out way out and see how that goes...

 

[Udi]

Yeah I don't think there's really any need to go under 125psi on the DHX5, personally I found that shock worked better with higher pressure and lower propedal (3 clicks or less). Was a bit difficult to get the right support in the early to mid stroke though (stock compression valving is super soft).

I think what Gary was trying to say is that if you change the bottom out and then don't reset pressure, it'll change (you probably knew that). But for example if you had it wound right in and then backed it out without adding air after... the fact that it tracked better might be because of lower chamber pressure rather than just the b/o setting.

 

[Sandwich]

Yeah, to be honest I think I originally had it at 150psi. I've cavitated it twice by running too low pressure, so I want to avoid that at all costs...thus the higher pressure.

If I run the bottom out wound out at 125psi (checking it with the thing wound out) will that emulate running lower chamber PSI?

 

[Sandwich]

Anyone know if a vivid air will fit?

 

[Ribas]

Ribas -
I agree with Ev. I think the closest you'll get to Hill's geometry will be with a medium frame and slacker cups. I think -2* will actually give you a slacker frame than Hill's (which personally I'd only do if you're riding quite steep tracks regularly and flatter ones rarely). Personally I found the bike worked well with -1* cups and the fork pushed down in the crowns, which (with my 40) leaves the head angle at just under 63 (I think it was about 62.5* according to iphone - left/right averaged) and also gives you a bit more BB clearance for rough tracks with deep holes.

I just measured my current geometry:
1176mm / 46.3" wheelbase
354mm / 13.9" bb height
62.5* head angle
(Fox fork and shock, fork at maximum height)

You can obviously bring the BB lower and steepen HA with the fork if needed. I run flat bars at 788mm width to counteract the taller fork setting.

You'll notice that wheelbase is slightly longer than the large frame (46.25"), even though I have a medium frame. I would also strongly recommend an RC4 shock over the BOS (I have both) as it is much better suited to the frame. The BOS also has a slightly shorter eye-to-eye length (240mm instead of the proper 9.5"/241.3mm and 76mm stroke instead of 3"/76.2mm) so geometry and travel will vary slightly.

You might find my setup interesting because I am identical to you in weight and height. I'm 180cm which is actually 5'11" and weigh 80kg with gear (maybe 75kg without gear). Fox RC4 with 300lbs is perfect, as the Fox needs a lighter spring than the BOS. I have a 325lb on my BOS just like you, as 300 is too soft on it.

Thanks UDI
- I ride my front suspention (Idylle Rare) as low as possible in it's crowns, so it maybe compensates the -2º HA reducer? (same as having a -1ºHA reducer and fork as high as posible?)
- I do not really know how the Fox RC4 would perform on the frame, but i'm really satisfied with the Bos performance (but didn't knew about the eye-eye lenght problem). I like the bike to be linear on it's travel (more predictable, more traccion and more control), i don't mind mottoming out (in major hits), as i compensate that with my body. But i never felt a really harsh bottoming out...
But what are the main diferences you noticed in those 2 shocks?
- I'm thinking in trying a stronger 350 shock spring and a softer front fork spring. I want to perfectly ballance the bike. Now i feel i need maybe a little less rear sag (but without loosing traccion) and i need more front traccion, specially in high speed corners with no support (no berms), so maybe with more front sag i will resolve that issue? (weight balance more to the front).
- What settings did you have on your BOS?

 

[Udi]

Ribas:

- The low fork will be fine with the -2 cups, but IMO in race situations where holes in tracks get deep and chainguides cop a beating, it is useful to have a slightly higher (>13.5") BB (which is difficult to obtain with a slammed fork - you'll more likely be around 13.4"). I am currently at 13.7" and enjoying it. Personally I would go with a -1.5 cup at the slackest but that's just me (I do ride some fairly steep terrain here also).

- If you are satisfied with the BOS then by all means keep running it. My personal experience was this: I ran two different Stoy shocks in the Sunday and found the damping curves less than perfect in both cases, I believe the stock high speed valving is slightly too firm (I noticed spiking on very fast sections with sharp impacts on both shocks) and I believe BOS are way off the mark with their recommended settings and spring rates. For example we weigh the same and are both running 325 springs - but check what the manual recommends (250-275)! These guys aren't as amazing as they claim to be in my honest opinion.

- The BOS shock also uses a heavily valved main piston with no one-way valve, which means that rebound settings strongly influence compression damping - this is tricky to tune around without pulling apart the shock. IMO with revalving the shock could work well, but I chose not to bother because of the following point.

- The BOS has no progressive compression damping, which I've covered in detail in previous posts. That's not to say the shock won't work (it does the job), but if you're going out of your way to get the best suited shock for the frame, then I think it's hard to beat the RC4. The progression means that you can run a spring rate that doesn't have to compensate for the very linear (actually slightly regressive) end stroke of the Sunday's leverage ratio curve.

I found I could run the RC4 with a lower spring rate (300lbs) while getting correct sag, and set it up with less compression damping - because the compression damping ramps up as the shock gets deeper into the travel. This means that the start of the travel can be set up softer, which in my experience made the bike a LOT better on square edged hits, especially at higher speeds, while having plenty of deep stroke / bottom out support.

I should probably stop repeating myself here, but seriously, I was pretty keen on jumping on a more progressive frame to get the square edged performance I wanted - until I changed shocks. For me the difference was night and day, which is not something I see or say often!

 

[Udi]

- I'm thinking in trying a stronger 350 shock spring and a softer front fork spring. I want to perfectly ballance the bike. Now i feel i need maybe a little less rear sag (but without loosing traccion) and i need more front traccion, specially in high speed corners with no support (no berms), so maybe with more front sag i will resolve that issue? (weight balance more to the front).
- What settings did you have on your BOS?

Loss of front traction is usually a result of not having enough weight on the front wheel. You should note that using -2 cups is going to make this situation worse rather than better. On very steep tracks, the weight bias moves forward quite drastically, which is where the slacker HA is much more beneficial, without the front traction reduction.

I am not sure what the stock spring rate is on the Idylle so I can't really comment on going softer or harder.

One thing that might help is running wider bars and/or longer stem (both things will move more weight over your front wheel). I'm currently on a 788mm bar and it's working well. Stem is pretty standard (50mm, point1).

It's important to set things up for the tracks and conditions you ride, as they might be very different (from the pros, from me, from whoever else).

Also - my Stoy settings are 18 clicks in on Rebound, 7 clicks in on HSC, 7 clicks in on LSC. Settings are all from fully open, because I'm lazy (you might have to convert the numbers if you measure from fully closed).

 

[Nathan]

Hi guys

Please could you tell me which Cane creek angle set is the correct fit for a 2008 sunday.

thanks in advance

Nathan

 

[Sandwich]

Nathan, you need the ZS49 1.5" reducer headset. The beauty of the device is there are no special parts you need, outside of that.

I'm looking to change bikes, so this: http://www.ridemonkey.com/classifieds/cat-2/ad-18867/?&epostid=16368 is up for sale. Better photos coming.

 

[Nathan]

Thanks Mate, greatly appreciated.
I have also been looking at the K9's HA adapter.
Just a little concerned 2degrees slacker may be a little crazy.
Any one any thoughts?

Cheers

Nathan

 

[Udi]

I agree with you on the -2, but have a look at works components, they do a -1.5 which might be what you are after.

They are a bit cheaper than K9 and work perfectly.
Also I'd recommend getting a fixed angled headset vs. an angleset, because there seems to be no end of creaking/galling/reliability issues with the angleset. With the fixed ones you have none of those worries.

 

[ATO]

Hi guys,

does anyone tried this one? (angle cups)

http://www.ofanaim.net/prodspec.html

 

[bullcrew]

Got this large frame from a buddy so i stripped it polished it and built it up with my parts. Came in 38.04 with full casette heavier saddle and pedals. 37.4 now with dh casings.
Im impressed at the cornering and pedaling of this bike. Its more plush than i figured it would be.

Did the angleset on it at -1.5 and wow what a sled. Lol

 

[Tomasis]

damn it is nice bike, congrats, bullcrew

 

[alii]

I've had a search for a definitive answer on this but can't seem to find one, such a big thread!

Anyway, my problem is side to side play at the lower shock pin, the reducer bar from the shock mounting hardware SEEMS to not be wide enough. Am I right in thinking that the inside of the DW link should pinch either side of the reducer bar slightly, thus stopping it rotating and forcing the reducer bar to rotate in the du bush of the shock eyelet? At the moment the reducer is rotating on the pin, as there's nothing to stop it. The current reducer is 30x10mm, which i believe is the correct size. It's almost as if the dw link is slightly too wide, but that seems kind of ridiculous.

There's about 1.5mm of side to side play at the lower shock mount because of this, and it's just the reducer sliding from side to side on the steel pin.

Something is the wrong size here, right? I'm going to see if i can get some washers to space it out in the mean time.


It's an '07 Sunday btw, any help is much appreciated!

Thanks

 

[Sandwich]

honestly, I have something similar on mine.

 

[Udi]

It is actually a very unconventional system because of the pivot concentric shock mount. The lower shock pin has a raised section which matches the 12.7mm OD of the reducer (the non raised section obviously being 10mm), and this raised section slides against the reducer and pulls it against one side of the link to clamp it against the link (or attempt to at least).

Thus the reducer is actually pulled to one side in practise. If there is side to side play, the drive side bolt may not be tight, or something else amiss. I'd check the 22mm pivots are done up tight, and maybe try different hardware (or switch top and bottom).There should be no side to side play.

 

[alii]

It is actually a very unconventional system because of the pivot concentric shock mount. The lower shock pin has a raised section which matches the 12.7mm OD of the reducer (the non raised section obviously being 10mm), and this raised section slides against the reducer and pulls it against one side of the link to clamp it against the link (or attempt to at least).

Thus the reducer is actually pulled to one side in practise. If there is side to side play, the drive side bolt may not be tight, or something else amiss. I'd check the 22mm pivots are done up tight, and maybe try different hardware (or switch top and bottom).There should be no side to side play.

Ohh, I get it now! Looking at it I couldn't see any way the 12.7mm part could contact with the reducer - it didn't fit through the link. Then i realised the link must be upside down so the larger hole was on the wrong side. So embarrassing haha. All fixed now! Thanks so much.

 

[bouncing_soul]

Could you guys tell me something about your suspension setup?
I'm currently running a vivid 5.1 and a fox 40 and somehow the bike feels different from ride to ride.
I think think there's a problem with the cartridge of the 40 but thats another issue...
But also the vivid doesn't feel completely right. Today the bike started to almost kick me off after hard compression... so I tried a slower end stroke rebound setting. It felt right when the shock was at the slowest end stroke rebound setting. And I'm not quite sure if that's the way it is supposed to be ;-)
What settings do you use for the vivid 5.1?

 

[Marius]

Does anybody know the Reach for a Sunday frame size medium?

 

[tea-addict]

With regards to the lower shock pin, does it tap out on the drive side or non-drive side?

I think I know, but I want to be sure before I get too eager with a hammer.

 

[bullcrew]

With regards to the lower shock pin, does it tap out on the drive side or non-drive side?

I think I know, but I want to be sure before I get too eager with a hammer.

Taps out towards non drive side.

When you undo the screw on the drive side it allows you to access it. When it comes out and you look at it for the first time its self explanitory. The screw on the drive side is what snugs it in fully.

 

[nojoke]

1st post on the site, just amazed at the plethora of info in this thread on sunday's. I picked one up used last fall and Im in the progress of doing some upgrades over the next couple of weeks.

06 Elite, take care of very well by previous single owner.


In the process of doing some upgrades below
Sun Ringle ADD wheelset
2011 Boxxer R2C2
2010 Avid Code's 203's F/R
Straitline Stem

Getting ready to pull the trigger on Cane Creek Angle Set, and wanted to confirm the correct part number I need was the ZS49?

Need to snag some new upper/lower shock bushings as well, recomendations on vendor?

Was getting the suspension dialed in when I got tired of having to service the 06 World Cup Boxxer, kept trashing seals etc, so I pulled the trigger on a newer/more reliable combo. Hoping to tip the scales at around 39lbs when its back together.

On a sidenote I also just thru some of the Specialized 2.5 Butchers on, and was really impressed with the tire, worked well in the loose, gravel/shale, cleaned out very well in the mud, ripped on the hardpack. No complaints.

Thanks!

 

[Marius]

Butcher looks pretty much the same like the Minion. Have you had a Minion before?

 

[nojoke]

I have had a Minion DHF/DHR. Took a sidewall slice to my DHR minion last week, and nobody stocks DH tires up here in Alaska, so net order is usually the way to do business. Ran up on some butchers, did some research and gave them a shot (they actually hooked me up on them price wise)

info here
http://www.leelikesbikes.com/first-ride-specialized-butcher-dh-tires.html

 

[Marius]

interesting to read! I`m using Minion F 3C 2.5 on front and rear and happy with them so far. When it´s getting wet or muddy changing to Swampthing....
Price is about the same here in Europe so I might try them when my Minions are done.
Where do you live in Alaska?

 

[policemanjim]

Hi i have a 2005 Iron Horse Sunday with the grey link etc... On the lower pivot link where swingarm meets dw link, should the two end caps and bolts spin freely when turned with a 4mm allen key, i know it wont undo as the other is reverse thread but should the whole big bolt spin ?

Thanks James

 

[Sandwich]

Hey James,
I know I shouldn't be posting as I apparently hate everything DW, but the rear bolts on the lower link are both screwed in normally to an axle that rotates inside that link. In other words, both sides are 3mm (or whatever) allen heads of normal thread. To tighten, you need two wrenches. To loosen, same deal, just get one loose then tap the thing out, the entire axle will slide out to one side.

On mine, I had to use a blow torch, vise grips, and a few other farm implements to get one side out, since low grade hardware was used by IH and the bolt stripped immediately. Eventually it came free. The axle was fine, however I used 10.9 hardware to replace the original bolts.

Hope that helps,
- DW-hater Supremus

 

[policemanjim]

Hi don't think u have understood me I'll post a video later show u what I mean !

 

[Sandwich]

On a sidenote I also just thru some of the Specialized 2.5 Butchers on, and was really impressed with the tire, worked well in the loose, gravel/shale, cleaned out very well in the mud, ripped on the hardpack. No complaints.

Thanks!

me too, they are fabulous tires. I initially had some DHF/R 3Cs in 2.3 and they were great, but the 2.5 butchers provide similar wet and dry traction with great lean angles. They get a little scary on wet grass with hard flat corners, but they were also still breaking in.

Hi don't think u have understood me I'll post a video later show u what I mean !

OK, but the pivot axle on the swingarm at the back of the lower link has two countersunk allen cap bolts, and they are both right hand threaded in. Perhaps we're talking about something else, but I had mine disassembled this winter and replaced them all.