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Women in Combat

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
I have never bought the fairer sex arguements and am not in favor of banning women from front line combat. I remember bits about the news coverage from the first Gulf War and female POWs... there was a big stink and debate at the time. I don't remember the exact details but many people were horified at the time. Now... it barely raises an eyebrow. I think this is good.

So... how long until women will be allowed in front line combat units and do they belong there? I say yes - women in the military are subject to the same risks as men. If women want to be on the front lines they should be allowed to do so. :monkey:

What do youz wemon types think??? If you were in the military would you want the opportunity to be on the fronts lines if you wanted to fight?

Below is a decent article on how things now stand:

One of the five U.S. soldiers captured by Iraqi forces and questioned on Iraqi television is the first female POW since the Clinton administration's military leaders repealed a rule barring servicewomen from positions with a high risk of encountering enemy fire or capture.

In 1994, the Pentagon, under Defense Secretary Les Aspin, discarded the "Risk Rule" and authorized women to serve in any post other than in frontline infantry, special-operations forces, or armor or artillery units.
The Pentagon was swayed by feminists, said Elaine Donnelly, president of the Military Readiness Center, an independent public policy organization that specializes in military personnel issues.
"It's bad when a man is captured. But if a woman is captured, she doesn't have the same chance [to defend herself] that a man does," said Mrs. Donnelly.
Both Mrs. Donnelly and retired Army Lt. Col. Robert Maginnis said when they learned of the woman's capture, they thought about a female POW from the 1991 Persian Gulf war who was sexually assaulted by Iraqis.
Col. Maginnis, a Fox News analyst, said no one should be surprised if a female POW is sexually assaulted.
"You must consider that women in every society are preyed upon if they are overtaken. ... Now that women are closer to the front lines, they are more subject to becoming captives and being manipulated," he said.
Published reports say women are allowed to hold 52 percent of active-duty positions in the Marines, about a twofold increase since the rule change, while women in the Army can hold 70 percent of such positions. Women in the Air Force and Navy can perform in 99 percent of active-duty positions, about a 30 percent increase since 1993.
A recent study from the think tank RAND noted that the services limit the number of women they recruit for certain occupations. A previous study said about 10 percent of military women favor combat roles for females.
Iraqi footage of the POWs, replayed on the Qatar-based Al Jazeera network, also shows the bodies of at least four other soldiers, some of whom appear to have been shot through the head.
U.S. officials last night said 12 soldiers were unaccounted for but did not release the names of the five POWs who wire service reports said were from the Army's 507th Maintenance unit out of Fort Bliss, Texas. A 6 p.m. press conference at Fort Bliss was canceled last night.
Col. Maginnis said people in both maintenance and transportation units are vulnerable to capture. But he said those in support units do not receive the same training in escape and survival as other soldiers. There simply is not enough time, he said.
Fox News said yesterday that it was told that personnel in the 507th Maintenance unit received basic combat training.
"We clearly need to reconsider the decision made in the early 1990s for the good of the country and the good of women," said Col. Maginnis.
Prior to the Risk Rule change, servicewomen were also barred from even support roles for combat troops, said Mrs. Donnelly, who suspected that a woman would be among the captives when she heard they were from the Army's 507th.
Mrs. Donnelly said it bothers her that Maj. Rhonda Cornum, the flight surgeon for the Army's 2-229th Attack Helicopter Battalion who was captured by Iraqis 12 years ago, didn't tell the public about her sexual abuse for four years.
"She was a staunch advocate of women in combat, and she withheld that information. ... If the world had known what happened to her, it might have changed the debate," said Mrs. Donnelly.
A second woman captured and later released in the first Gulf war has not said whether she was sexually assaulted, Mrs. Donnelly said.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Sorry:

By Joyce Howard Price
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

March 24th 2003

As for the youz wemon thing... I think Ren and Stempy are cool - sorry if you don't find them funny.
 

LoboDelFuego

Monkey
Mar 5, 2002
193
0
Well what side you argue for depends on what you want the military to be. If you want the ultimate fighting force, then no woman is ever going to be able to match a man for strength, speed or endurance, given the same amount of training. So in that kind of military, women would best be suited to noncombat roles, or not even in it at all (since men have sex with women and thats a bad thing in the military).

If you want the military to be representative of the people they are fighting for, then women should be allowed to do anything men do, but that kind of military would have to be mandatory, ensuring that people from all walks of life serve to defend their country.

I personally think that women should be happy they don't have to fight. They get all the benefits of military service (salary, job training, insurance, pension) but without most of the risks. If a woman can prove that she can fight as well as the men, she should be allowed to join any unit she wants. This will probably never happen though, because many men don't even get past the tests for special forces.
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
just so you know where I"m coming from, I'm 42, mother of two teens, raised by Kennedy/Johnson liberals, did my time as a kid following my parents to SDS rallies and what not... followed the feminist agenda (EQUALITY!!!) and all that, and it all changed when I had kids. I've come to the determination that the current feminist agenda is very anti- kid and anti-mother. Anyhoo, regarding the article.

First of all , the article doesn't even bring up the issue of women and the draft. Which, IMO for the 50/50 agenda is going to be an issue someday.

Secondly the whole tone of the article seems focus on a condescending "weaker sex" point of view.

You are asking for MY opinion on the whole concept tho, right? If they want to go, let them. I do believe strongly that women with children should not be sent TDY- that's the worst sort of government sanctioned child abandonment.

I'm sure any woman joining the service for front line exposure has a pretty good idea of what they'd be getting into. Historically there has always been an element of warrior women in different cultures. I'd frankly be more concerned about the current way the military handles others aspects of women in the service: look at the cover-ups and refusals to prosecute rapes at the Air Force Academy.

who's Ren and Stimpy?:rolleyes:

geargrrl
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by geargrrl
First of all , the article doesn't even bring up the issue of women and the draft. Which, IMO for the 50/50 agenda is going to be an issue someday.

If the draft comes back it will certainly be a big issue.

Secondly the whole tone of the article seems focus on a condescending "weaker sex" point of view.

Oh... I didn't get get that, I just read the facts as it pertained to numbers and policy.

You are asking for MY opinion on the whole concept tho, right? If they want to go, let them. I do believe strongly that women with children should not be sent TDY- that's the worst sort of government sanctioned child abandonment.

But OK for fathers? I personally know two stay at home dads who have wives that work full time plus. Is there a difference?
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
Originally posted by geargrrl
You are asking for MY opinion on the whole concept tho, right? If they want to go, let them. I do believe strongly that women with children should not be sent TDY- that's the worst sort of government sanctioned child abandonment.




Serial Midget wrote:
But OK for fathers? I personally know two stay at home dads who have wives that work full time plus. Is there a difference?


OK. You are correct to call me on that. Let me re-state that: I believe stongly that if a kid has two parents in the military, both parents should not be TDY at the same time... THAT'S government sanctioned child abandonment. If at least one(doesn't matter, dads are just as important as moms) parent is there for the kids if the other one never comes home. Last week's TIME had a article on this, both parents shipped out, kids farmed out to neighbors, very sad if you ask me.

Better? That's what I meant all along anyway.


geargrrl
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Originally posted by geargrrl
I do believe strongly that women with children should not be sent TDY- that's the worst sort of government sanctioned child abandonment.
geargrrl
Whoops... sorry. Didn't see your post down a bit lower.
Disregard.
__________________________________________________
So you beleive that the Mother is a more important figure in a child's deveopment? Or the father is more "Expendable"?

Just playing :devil: advocate.
Not meant as a personal jab.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by geargrrl
I hate it when people post like they are illiterate.

gg
Ren and Stimpy do not come up my spell checker... :p

I do agree on the family issue and farming out kids but calling that child abandonment seems a bit harsh. It seems like such a no-brainer... I wonder why there is no policy now? Hmmm.

Curious to hear what other's think. :)
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
Originally posted by -BB-

__________________________________________________
So you beleive that the Mother is a more important figure in a child's deveopment? Or the father is more "Expendable"?

Just playing :devil: advocate.
Not meant as a personal jab.

Heh, I'm a consevative liberal who thinks kids need both. Fathering is different that mothering, one's not better than the other.

uh-oh, is this thread derailing?
 

Velocity Girl

whack-a-mole
Sep 12, 2001
1,279
0
Atlanta
Originally posted by geargrrl
Originally posted by geargrrl
You are asking for MY opinion on the whole concept tho, right? If they want to go, let them. I do believe strongly that women with children should not be sent TDY- that's the worst sort of government sanctioned child abandonment.




Serial Midget wrote:
But OK for fathers? I personally know two stay at home dads who have wives that work full time plus. Is there a difference?


OK. You are correct to call me on that. Let me re-state that: I believe stongly that if a kid has two parents in the military, both parents should not be TDY at the same time... THAT'S government sanctioned child abandonment. If at least one(doesn't matter, dads are just as important as moms) parent is there for the kids if the other one never comes home. Last week's TIME had a article on this, both parents shipped out, kids farmed out to neighbors, very sad if you ask me.

Better? That's what I meant all along anyway.


geargrrl
So should single parents not have to be shipped out either? Why should a marrired couple recieve special consideration in this case when the consequences to the childeren are the same? (Just bringing up another point of view here.)
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
yes I would agree with that, that if someone is a kids' only availble parent they shoudln't have to go war. I think kids need their parents alive and with them, not potentially coming home in a body bag.

I said that I didn't think BOTH parents shoud be shipped out at the same time.. that doesn't mean that they have to be married. Since when do you have to be married or even be a couple to have a kid?


Originally posted by ghettorigged: Male or female, if you feel the need to kill THAT BADLY you should be allowed to do so legally
I think this statement is the real point of the conversation...whether women should be allowed on the frontlines or not.
 

Velocity Girl

whack-a-mole
Sep 12, 2001
1,279
0
Atlanta
Originally posted by geargrrl
yes I would agree with that, that if someone is a kids' only parent they shoudln't have to go war.

Rember that I said that I didn't think BOTH parents shoud be shipped out at the same time.. that doesn't mean that they have to be married.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think this statement is the real point of the conversation.

I agree that both women and men should be allowed on the front lines if that's what they sign up for.

My views do differ on the parents not being shipped out though. The reason for this is because it discriminates against peolple who do not have children, wheather by choice or for reasons not under their control. If you are in the military, and you choose to have children, you have agreed to the risks and the consequences that come along with that responsibility.
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Originally posted by geargrrl
yes I would agree with that, that if someone is a kids' only availble parent they shoudln't have to go war. I think kids need their parents alive and with them, not potentially coming home in a body bag.

OK... so should the military not accept single parents that want to enlist?
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
Originally posted by -BB-
OK... so should the military not accept single parents that want to enlist?

I have two kids. Any of you parents?. .

I under stand that some would feel it's discrimintaion against single people to regualte who would go or stay home based on whether they were parents or not.

It's not something you can legislate. It's a personal value set. My set of values is that I beleive parents should be phsycially present and acticvely involved involved and committed to their kids first, when they choose to have them. It saddens me when people don't put their kids first. Just my opinion.

I'll be blunt. If one is a single parent ( no "other" parent, they're gone) and enlists, dumping kid with whomever so you can go fight, I think that's screwed up priorities. Just my opinion.

geargrrl
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Originally posted by geargrrl
I have two kids. Any of you parents?. .

I under stand that some would feel it's discrimintaion against single people to regualte who would go or stay home based on whether they were parents or not.

It's not something you can legislate. It's a personal value set. My set of values is that I beleive parents should be phsycially present and acticvely involved involved and committed to their kids first, when they choose to have them. It saddens me when people don't put their kids first. Just my opinion.

I'll be blunt. If one is a single parent ( no "other" parent, they're gone) and enlists, dumping kid with whomever so you can go fight, I think that's screwed up priorities. Just my opinion.

geargrrl
So maybe they just shouldn't be in "front-line" positions.
It isn't that bad for a parent to be away for a while (few months) but it is bad for them to be away forever:dead:
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
OK. Lets say that in 10 years or so there are no longer any restrictions for women that prevent them from participating in frontline combat. If that happens should the enlisted women be subject to random pregnancy tests?

I'm going to see if I can get this move to the polictical forum - it's turned into a bit of a debate. And a good one at that. :)
 

Velocity Girl

whack-a-mole
Sep 12, 2001
1,279
0
Atlanta
Originally posted by geargrrl
I have two kids. Any of you parents?. .

I under stand that some would feel it's discrimintaion against single people to regualte who would go or stay home based on whether they were parents or not.

It's not something you can legislate. It's a personal value set. My set of values is that I beleive parents should be phsycially present and acticvely involved involved and committed to their kids first, when they choose to have them. It saddens me when people don't put their kids first. Just my opinion.

geargrrl
No...I don't have kids...but my Dad is only recently retired from the military. I don't deny that having a child's parents sent to war would be tragic...but it's a personal decision that everyone in the military must make for themself.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
5
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Originally posted by geargrrl
I have two kids. Any of you parents?. .

I under stand that some would feel it's discrimintaion against single people to regualte who would go or stay home based on whether they were parents or not.

It's not something you can legislate. It's a personal value set. My set of values is that I beleive parents should be phsycially present and acticvely involved involved and committed to their kids first, when they choose to have them. It saddens me when people don't put their kids first. Just my opinion.

I'll be blunt. If one is a single parent ( no "other" parent, they're gone) and enlists, dumping kid with whomever so you can go fight, I think that's screwed up priorities. Just my opinion.

geargrrl

...but this popped up as current debate and I couldn't resist. I don't really have to say much, though, as geargrrl's post captured my sentiment...but what do I know- I'm just a dad with a daughter. The gov't should NEVER be responsible for making the child of a soldier an orphan. Of couse, now we will be bombarded by angry retorts of "what about Iraqi children" from our left-leaning friends, but that is an altogether different debate.
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
Originally posted by Velocity Girl
No...I don't have kids...but my Dad is only recently retired from the military. I don't deny that having a child's parents sent to war would be tragic...but it's a personal decision that everyone in the military must make for themself.
Totally a personal decision.. but was your mom there for you while your dad was gone?

Yes I'm bulldogging the "kids' need a parent" deal... maybe if mine had been there for me I wouldn't be so hung up on it.

geargrrl
 

Velocity Girl

whack-a-mole
Sep 12, 2001
1,279
0
Atlanta
Originally posted by llkoolkeg
...but this popped up as current debate and I couldn't resist. I don't really have to say much, though, as geargrrl's post captured my sentiment...but what do I know- I'm just a dad with a daughter. The gov't should NEVER be responsible for making the child of a soldier an orphan. Of couse, now we will be bombarded by angry retorts of "what about Iraqi children" from our left-leaning friends, but that is an altogether different debate.
So if someone chooses to be in the military, aren't they then ultimately the one responsible for the decision of possibly orphaning their child?
 

Freak

...............................................
Aug 15, 2001
3,728
0
Redmond, Washington
If someone chooses to enlist in the military, then that's their job! They have signed their life away to the gov't, no if's and's or but's about it. The gov't shouldn't have to be the one worrying if this soldier has a significant other with children or if they are single with children.

If you choose to have a child while in the military, or come into the military with children that person (single or married) should be prepared to be shipped off to some foreign land to do their job for their country.

Just my .02 cents
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Woah!
Standard, double, type 1 ea.

You are asking for MY opinion on the whole concept tho, right? If they want to go, let them. I do believe strongly that women with children should not be sent TDY- that's the worst sort of government sanctioned child abandonment.
So we can send the fathers of those children, but not the mothers? I personally know three single fathers who are serving in the Gulf right this second.

If ya'all want equality, it has to be equal.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by Velocity Girl
I agree that both women and men should be allowed on the front lines if that's what they sign up for.

My views do differ on the parents not being shipped out though. The reason for this is because it discriminates against peolple who do not have children, wheather by choice or for reasons not under their control. If you are in the military, and you choose to have children, you have agreed to the risks and the consequences that come along with that responsibility.
and

If someone chooses to enlist in the military, then that's their job! They have signed their life away to the gov't, no if's and's or but's about it. The gov't shouldn't have to be the one worrying if this soldier has a significant other with children or if they are single with children.
If you choose to have a child while in the military, or come into the military with children that person (single or married) should be prepared to be shipped off to some foreign land to do their job for their country.
Exactly!
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
IMO,

Women do serve a valuable purpose in the military...they are better in certain aspects of military life than even men are, but not one of those aspects is combat.

Example:

I was deployed a few months ago to a forward area. Nothing major at all, just some training scenarios and whatnot. Anyway, i was going out to take some pictures of some Marines way out in the bush for the local newsletter, a female officer asked if she could accompany me. "Yes ma'am, of course"

So we get out there, and immediately the Marines' attention turns from digging trenches to checking out the officer. #1, having femails diverts attention from the mission. After a few hours of watching people wrestle for her attention, we get a call that our helo wont be able to return until the next day...so we;d have to stay the night in the field. No big deal right?
Wrong! The Marines had to set up another tent, dig another letrine and allow for a females only shower time.....#2 having females in forward areas creates more work than is necessary. Then low and behold, the next morning she's vomiting all over the place because she got sick. The Corpsmen is doing everything he can to make her feel better, giving her twice the attention he'd give any male Marine. #3 Men worry about women. They want to take care of them at all costs. This hurts the mission.

The fact of the matter is....we would only allow women in combat to satisfy their wishes for equality, not because it makes us a better fighting force. It hurts mission capability to have women on the front lines.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
I have three points -- one mtb related, one general, and one martial arts related:

1. In the race I was in last year, the beginner women started after my group. Cuz I suck, they passed me about 1/4 in. They were very aggressive and one lady even threw an elbow :D Women can be agressive!

2. I think women should be allowed in combat, but for the mean time, combat roles should be voluntary. If a woman wants to serve her country that way, cool. I'm sure she knows what's she's getting into... as much as any guy would, anyway.

3. In the dojo/school I used to train at, there were six women who were total badasses. Granted, they'd been training for years and you don't get that in the military, but this whole notion of a man's strength vs a woman's is total bull****. I'm clearly stronger than those women and even after my 4 yrs training vs their 6 yrs, they still kicked my ass big time. PS: 4 of the 6 women were total hotties :devil: so don't think that a woman has to give up her feminity to be tough.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by BurlySurly
So we get out there, and immediately the Marines' attention turns from digging trenches to checking out the officer. #1, having femails diverts attention from the mission. After a few hours of watching people wrestle for her attention...
Sounds like these particular soldiers lack discipline.
:think: Is this the fault of the female officer? Not!. :monkey:

What about an all female front line division?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by Serial Midget
Sounds like these particular soldiers lack discipline.
:think: Is this the fault of the female officer? Not!. :monkey:

What about an all female front line division?
First off they were Marines, not soldiers. These particular Marines had been in the field about 15 days and had been out of the states for months. The discipline was fine before the female got there...keeping military discipline strict in a combat area is hard enough without extra distractions.
 

Spud

Monkey
Aug 9, 2001
550
0
Idaho (no really!)
Originally posted by BurlySurly
First off they were Marines, not soldiers. These particular Marines had been in the field about 15 days and had been out of the states for months. The discipline was fine before the female got there...keeping military discipline strict in a combat area is hard enough without extra distractions.
Problem is with the Marines, not the office in question.

Your point is still well-taken though.
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
Originally posted by Damn True
Woah!
Standard, double, type 1 ea.

So we can send the fathers of those children, but not the mothers?

re read my posts. I am opposed to single (unspoken: custodial) PARENTS leaving their kids. I corrected the refernce to moms over dads early on.
I personally know three single fathers who are serving in the Gulf right this second.
assuming they had sole custody, who's taking care of the kids?
who'd they leave 'em with?

All I care about is those kids that are left behind with no parent.

geargrrl
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
they allow single parents to serve in combat roles?

I know when my dad was in the Korean war that they wouldn't let an only son serve in combat.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by BurlySurly
First off they were Marines, not soldiers. These particular Marines had been in the field about 15 days and had been out of the states for months. The discipline was fine before the female got there...keeping military discipline strict in a combat area is hard enough without extra distractions.
So what if they had not seen a female in 15 days - was she not a fellow Marine and an officer to boot?

I don't buy it. I would think the Marines you mentioned would have been far better trained and shown more respect to the visiting officer. :monkey:
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by BurlySurly
The discipline was fine before the female got there...keeping military discipline strict in a combat area is hard enough without extra distractions.
I have a hard time believing those Marines would be thinking about sex in a combat area...

But the rest of your post makes a point. It's a shame that's the way it works, but yit's hard to argue with genetic predisposition.

I wonder how colleges get away with co-ed bathrooms and the military can't. Ever read/see Starship Troopers? Maybe we're just behind the times.
 
Originally posted by geargrrl
I have two kids. Any of you parents?. .

I under stand that some would feel it's discrimintaion against single people to regualte who would go or stay home based on whether they were parents or not.

It's not something you can legislate. It's a personal value set. My set of values is that I beleive parents should be phsycially present and acticvely involved involved and committed to their kids first, when they choose to have them. It saddens me when people don't put their kids first. Just my opinion.

I'll be blunt. If one is a single parent ( no "other" parent, they're gone) and enlists, dumping kid with whomever so you can go fight, I think that's screwed up priorities. Just my opinion.

geargrrl

i agree... too many people dump their kids in front of TV, or other places... if you have a kid, focus on raising the kid to be the best person possible... dont abandon them. if you are in the military, hold off for 4 years till your tour is done to have kids, if you are a lifer.... well that is a little different... point is, kids first
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Ok... how does this make you all feel... especially you men???

------------------



First girl lost in the war
By WILL BARKER

A PRETTY 19-year-old country girl who joined the US Army to escape unemployment was feared to be the first woman soldier to die yesterday.

Blonde Jessica Lynch was among 12 soldiers in a US supply convoy ambushed by Iraqi troops.

(READ MORE)