Women in Combat
- Thread starter Serial Midget
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All the rapes and sexual harassment things that we hear about in the military come from the Academies...which are in fact colleges. In some instances, such as the US naval academy, you have to get endorsed by a congressman and have several letters of reccomendation before you;re considered. That's not to say that the people who go there are any better than at regular colleges, but i just wanted to make the point that the scandals you always here about arent from the hooligans like myself who just enlist and go off to boot camp instead of going to college.
What you get at those academies, that you dont get at a regular college are issues of rank and subordination, before maturity. The scandals that occur are minor in the grand scheme of things, but as everyone knows....the media loves to bust the military for stuff. Things get rather blown up to the point where it seems like our military academies are sexual predation grounds and women arent safe there.
Id venture to guess that similar things happen in co ed dorms, but just arent as often reported, or reported on by the media, since its just local crime, and not a matter of national security.
I posted up once before about Starship troopers, and how great a book that is. I dont think society will ever reach that point, however. As much as id like to see it.
I feel different for some reason... more disturbed maybe. I don't know why... I can't explain it. However, with women in the battle theater this is going to happen again and again.
Still... I am going to have a hard time getting used to it. When I was in the SeaBees, we had no women in our unit. There are now though...
Still... I am going to have a hard time getting used to it. When I was in the SeaBees, we had no women in our unit. There are now though...
I feel different. I feel even worse because i know that after being captured, she was probably repeatedly raped and sodomized before being executed. There's no honor in dying that way. I feel deeply for her family.
I feel bad for the families of everyone who dies in combat. The armed services are 100% WAR oriented - I give the lady her due, I think she was capable of understanding exactly what she signed up for.
Your post proves my intial point - women in the military are already subject to the risks of war. The art of waging war is constantly evolving - women in the military are not immune to casualty or capture. If they want to serve on the front lines they should have the opportunity to do so.
There is no difference. If you are in the military you are required to serve in your rate whenever and wherever you are commanded to do so. Man, woman, single, married, parent or not.
You are a Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Airman or Coastie first, anything else comes second.
The children were sent to live with grandparents until their fathers return.
Sounds like it's not the women that are the problem, but the men. Lack of self-control seems to be more of a problem for the men than the fighting abilities of women now doesn't it?
Even if that were the case, the problem doesnt have to be there. It would be more effective to simply preclude women from forward areas than to try and reprogram 174,000 US Marines.
You're saying that 174,000 Marnes would put themselves at risk because women are present? I don't think so.
If that were the case, let's hope the Iraqis (or any other of our foes) don't use any women in their armies or all our troops will stop fighting and start to drool themselves.
Marines are "programmed' to become distacted in the pressence of women? I'm calling my congressman (or woman) with this sensitive information!!!
Saw a good interview with a Major who was taken POW in the last gulf war. Her take was that after having 5 people in her helo crew die, braking both arms and getting shot in the back being sexually assaulted by a guard was a minor problem.
I know of men who were also sexually assaulted in Japanese POW camps. I trust it made a lasting impression as that was one of the few things the poor guy remembered when the Alzheimers took him from us.
Which is the point I brought up.
At the same time, the folks on the front lines and under the pressures of war, should be able to be blow off as much steam as they want to back at the base/camp/trench. I'm not going to penalize them for crudity when they'reseeing what they're seeing and risking what they're risking.
Having spent a decent amount of time in both single sex and co-ed "fraternities" back in the day I can say that , within the framework of heterosexuality, men (even well-adjusted ones) can blow off steam more easily when they're only among men. Blame it on evolution, but the sex drive is programmed into us plain and simple.
You obviously havent spent any time around Marines.
war is hell
for all involved
period
if need be, any human can do it and survive, male or female, some individuals male or female would die the first day and or be irreprably emtoionaly scarred for life while the same situations others can shrug off gender does not effect this, character does.
point is the character and ability of the person should be the only dictator of jobs assigned. seperate pottys and showers should be the last on list of 'necesities' we all **** we all pee, there are no gay only latrines now are there?
if mixed genders are in combat or forward areas, park emotions and gender at the port of entry. if someone is capable, he or she should have no problem
period
for all involved
period
if need be, any human can do it and survive, male or female, some individuals male or female would die the first day and or be irreprably emtoionaly scarred for life while the same situations others can shrug off gender does not effect this, character does.
point is the character and ability of the person should be the only dictator of jobs assigned. seperate pottys and showers should be the last on list of 'necesities' we all **** we all pee, there are no gay only latrines now are there?
if mixed genders are in combat or forward areas, park emotions and gender at the port of entry. if someone is capable, he or she should have no problem
period
Absolutely correct.
We also have a pre-programed protection reaction when women are present. Not a valueable asset for mission accomplishment.
Since we are talking about 'programming' so much here, why not assume that good soldiers, Marines, etc can be 'programmed' to think of their women-counterparts as comrades and not outlets to stick it in?
Actually that's arguably only a societal influence. Our evolutionary instinct is only to protect our children.
Small point, but I'm the son of an evolutionary social psychologist, so I can't help myself...
Besides shouldn't it be your instinct to protect ANY memberof your troop?
In a perfect world, Im with you 100%. But this is reality we're talking here.
What's important is winning battles, not appeasing the hearts of feminist. Women cut down on unit effectivenes. Period. Be it the man or the woman's fault.
There's nothing beneficial about having women there. Its not to say that some arent capable, but it simply causes more problems than are necessary. Its simple numbers friend.
If they can't think with the head on their shoulders, then I am glad I haven't.
Differenent types of "programming." The sex drive is the result of evolution. These are the genetic and chemical differences between men and women, and without drugs cannot be altered... only suppressed or controlled.
You're talking about training and conditioning, versus a built in response or instinct.
I'm all for anyone who is qualified and has the will being allowed into any position they want in the military. But we also need to accept that there are inherent differences between the sexes and address them openly, rather than pretend they don't exist and wait to see what happens. I don't yet know the perfect solution. I doubt anyone does.
A Marines job in combat is not to think, so much as it is to follow orders exactly. Anything that impedes that, which can be expelled, should not be there, plain and simple. Some of the finest people I've met are Marines and former Marines. You should go to your local VFW and actually get an idea what you're talking about. Ask them about this topic and i assume you'll get a similar answer.
I have never met a woman who, given equal access to resouces, training and opportunity, could not take care of herself. Some guys might like to flatter themselves into thinking women need their protection but that seems like outdated thinking to me. Delusional even, in my opinion.
Dont think that's the point midge...
Its more about their abilities in working together, or lack of rather.
Like I said, societal influence, rather than evolutionary one.
However, I have met few people that think/act the same when a person they're attracted to enters the room, regardless of sex.
I don't think it's an issue on the battlefield, at all. And maybe it's not ENOUGH of an issue off the battlefield to keep women off the front lines.
Idle hands are the devils tools... :evil:
...yeah, right after they pinch my a$$
Originally posted by LordOpie
too true. When I was at the ER with my extremely painful seperated shoulder, (even almost puked once from the pain) I thought to myself, "damn, that nurse is super cute!" Forgot all about the pain while she was there
Something I can relate to!! My girlfriend is right, we are simple....
It goes against all my ethical principles, but I now get the point. Just needed it in the right frame of reference.
I don't think it is either. Give DHGirlie an M16 and look out!!!
Ladies and Gentlemen.
The stupidest comment of the day. Thank you
My experience, yours may differ:
While in the Coast Guard I had the opportunity to work with some very good and very poor female pilots and aircrew.
As DRB said the good ones (sadly they were vastly outnumbered by the poor) have worked long and hard, in some cases harder than men, to achieve their status. The rest used their femininity as a tool to get by.
In all cases I noticed a common tendancy. A lack of command presance that stemmed from a desire for acceptance. They rarely if ever just made a decision. More often they would defer to others in the crew senior and subordinate alike in decision making. While the concepts of CRM dictate that all members of the cockpit should take part in decision making there has to be a point where a decision is made. The female pilots and aircrew that I worked with rarely if ever fully took control of a situation.
I'm sure someone smarter than I am could write a book on the subject explaining the why's and wherefores but in my experience most (not all) women lack the ability to make split second decisions in life threatening situations.
While in the Coast Guard I had the opportunity to work with some very good and very poor female pilots and aircrew.
As DRB said the good ones (sadly they were vastly outnumbered by the poor) have worked long and hard, in some cases harder than men, to achieve their status. The rest used their femininity as a tool to get by.
In all cases I noticed a common tendancy. A lack of command presance that stemmed from a desire for acceptance. They rarely if ever just made a decision. More often they would defer to others in the crew senior and subordinate alike in decision making. While the concepts of CRM dictate that all members of the cockpit should take part in decision making there has to be a point where a decision is made. The female pilots and aircrew that I worked with rarely if ever fully took control of a situation.
I'm sure someone smarter than I am could write a book on the subject explaining the why's and wherefores but in my experience most (not all) women lack the ability to make split second decisions in life threatening situations.
So far she has been silent on the issue, I'm beginning to think she might have a frivolous nature.Originally posted by ghettorigged
I don't think it is either. Give DHGirlie an M16 and look out!!!
In the Coast Guard are women more or less likely than men to loose a helicopter, airplane or watercraft? That should be an excellent indication of something.
Huh?
Is the accident/incident/death rate any higher for female pilots as opposed to male pilots in the Coast Guard? If women pilots are not up to par it should surely show up statistically.
They'll tell you all their secrets but they'll lie about their past, won't you send them off to bed forever more... Tom Waits.