D'oh!Originally posted by ohio
I don't know... DRB may have a point. As both a marine AND a journalist, your reality credentials are limited to say the least...
The cat's out of the bag. Mention journalist and credibility goes right out the window.
Women in Combat
- Thread starter Serial Midget
- Start date
The cat's out of the bag. Mention journalist and credibility goes right out the window.
Mention military journalist and objectivity goes...
You have a point though - Dan Rather looks like he is having too much fun over in Iraq. His perceived self importance seems to have gone up a few notches...
You kids play nice or you are both out of the sandbox for the rest of recess.
Why aren't you answering my question??? I'd hate to have to google it myself...
Is the accident/incident/death rate any higher for female pilots as opposed to male pilots in the Coast Guard? If women pilots are not up to par it should surely show up statistically.
Erm, bull****. The strongest women may not match the strongest man but then neither does the weakest man. Women can be stronger than man and veyr often have better endurance. Check your facts.
On the single parent/military orphaning issue..
If both parents are in the military, one dies in combat and the other then dies of other causes is the military still responsible? I do not see how you can possibly even try and legislate for the endless eventualities (death, disability, divorce etc). If a parent joins the military or military personnel have kids they have to be personally responsible for the risks and should take steps to ensure the welfare of their offspring should the worst happen.
Male/female distraction..
It's not the militray that programmes men to have a sexual interest in women, it's hormones or society (whole other debate). Whether this shoudl preclude women in the front line is a separate question but BurlySurly is quite right IMO (and it's rare for me to say that) to point the issue out. If this is a real issue we have to include other real issues.
"Supply clerk Jessica was feared dead after five survivors from the ambush were paraded before Iraqi TV cameras in sickening footage beamed around the world on Sunday.
Also shown were the bodies of the other seven members of the 507th Maintenance Co convoy, but Jessicas parents could not identify her among them."
I'm with BS(why is that funny to me?) on this one. I just pray that she was killed quickly in the initial assault because if she was just wounded or captured unharmed, there is a reason that she was not among the captured and dead. Saddam employs ON THE GOV'T PAYROLL professional rapists. Now what do you think his fedayeen thugs would have in store for this pretty young girl when less attractive(not the point, though) female soldiers captured during the first Gulf were repeatedly sexually assaulted? It is just horrible and it makes me feel so sick inside for all her family, friends and fellow 507th comrades. Somehow, though- and this may be a character flaw on my part- it makes me feel better when Iraqi Irregulars get atomized like occurred yesterday.
:angry:
in my life, dealing with my ex and my daughter who are both women and scorpio birth signs, this point is right on. As a guy and a taurus, when the heat is on, i make decisions right or wrong and move forward, after ward when it is quiet i think about my past actions and replay so that next time my instinctual decisions will be adjusted accordingly in hope to not repeat mistakes twice. where as my ex and my kid both get all caught up with feelings and emotions and worrying who is right who is to blame... that is all cute and all and i have to work with their reality when there is time, but when the heat is on and some crisis big or small is at play, i dictate.
in a landscaping crew i was not the senior guy on the job, but one day the tractor tipped over from too big a load in the bucket too high and too sharp a turn, the other guys staired like dumb-a$$ deer and I started barking orders, get the truck and a rope, turn off the tractor, get ready to hook the rope clear the tools... etc ....
so, i agree, guys are more inclined by genetics to be able to just start barking out orders and decisitons and if you dont like it you can suck my may pole
catagorically tho i stand with the idea that it comes down to the individuals character. period
First off, never call a Marine a soldier! Very poor form, having been raised by a Marine............I know!
Couple of points,
1) I firmly believe women should be allowed in the front lines to a point. Meaning, artillery, planes, helios etc. In many respects I think women would do a better job. However, I don't beleive they should be in front line infantry combat due to proven physical limitations. It is proven on average men are physically stronger than women. The equation is simple. In battle you do not fight for your country or yourselve you fight for your buddy and do not want to let them down. I rather have a 6' 225 pound guy next to me in a fox hole than a 5' 130 pound women when things got rough and there is close in fighting.
My second point is someone said that" well if women signs up for it they know what they are signing up for they know the risks so let them have at it". I contest, when it comes to war nobody knows what they are getting themselves into. My best friend is a Marine sniper and a veteran of the gulf, and Somolia and trust me war has changed him. My old roomate did 3 tours in Vietnam and they both say the same: What people do not understand is that in war all of these wonderful ideals of life, society and what we should or should not do all go out the window! It is all about mission and getting a job done and watching your buddies back. The less distraction the better. It is a sad fact but then again so is war.
Moral of the story: before you think how it should or should not be, speak to someone who was there before, then form your opinion. My hope is all the arm forces come home quickly because trust me, nobody wants not to fight more than a soldier!
Oh, and gettorigged, you comment about the Iraqi's should get some hot girls to lure the soliders in.... that is exactly what the Cong did to us in Vietnam
Couple of points,
1) I firmly believe women should be allowed in the front lines to a point. Meaning, artillery, planes, helios etc. In many respects I think women would do a better job. However, I don't beleive they should be in front line infantry combat due to proven physical limitations. It is proven on average men are physically stronger than women. The equation is simple. In battle you do not fight for your country or yourselve you fight for your buddy and do not want to let them down. I rather have a 6' 225 pound guy next to me in a fox hole than a 5' 130 pound women when things got rough and there is close in fighting.
My second point is someone said that" well if women signs up for it they know what they are signing up for they know the risks so let them have at it". I contest, when it comes to war nobody knows what they are getting themselves into. My best friend is a Marine sniper and a veteran of the gulf, and Somolia and trust me war has changed him. My old roomate did 3 tours in Vietnam and they both say the same: What people do not understand is that in war all of these wonderful ideals of life, society and what we should or should not do all go out the window! It is all about mission and getting a job done and watching your buddies back. The less distraction the better. It is a sad fact but then again so is war.
Moral of the story: before you think how it should or should not be, speak to someone who was there before, then form your opinion. My hope is all the arm forces come home quickly because trust me, nobody wants not to fight more than a soldier!
Oh, and gettorigged, you comment about the Iraqi's should get some hot girls to lure the soliders in.... that is exactly what the Cong did to us in Vietnam
wll at least SOME ONE didn't ignore that part of my post.
As pointed out before, front line soldiers are not a random sampling of the population, nor the worst case scenario you picked above. Soldiers (or Marines) all have to (or should have to) pass the same tests. If you want them big enough to carry each other, TEST them to make sure they can carry each other. If they can, does it really matter whether they're male or female? The result won't be 50/50 because the populations of each sex ARE different, but there certainly are women that CAN do the job.
I've also started to think the "idle time" issue I brought up before is frivolous. Men and women find time to themselves in regular society when it's 50/50, I think the male soldiers won't have a problem getting their "guy time" at the base.
unless you have been there.
My point was you guys where telling a Marine how it should and should not be and have never really been ther yourselves.
PS
also your statement about the martial arts thing. That women also had two more years of training than you did.
My point was you guys where telling a Marine how it should and should not be and have never really been ther yourselves.
PS
also your statement about the martial arts thing. That women also had two more years of training than you did.
Thanks SDH.
Even if you forget about ability levels, training, and the extra gear it requires, the fact of the matter is that having women on the front lines creates more problems than it solves.
Trust me, there are already plenty of problems in a wartime environment. Commanding officers dont need to be dealing with rape and sexual harrassment charges that would most certainly result. Not that Marines, or Soldiers are bad people, but in Combat, there's no telling what someone might do or say when they come under fire. I can also say that if you put a woman in charge of men in that situation, they're not going to follow her orders. Its happened before.
Idle time is only a minor problem Ohio. It comes down to simple mission priority. If questions arrise in the chain of command, there is a breakdown.
Another thing id like to point out, is that infantry units are like fraternities in a sense. These guys are a band of brothers. Why would you want to destroy that kind unity? Adding women would only create stress. Would you and your frat boys have let a woman in, in college?
Think about this stuff.
and when you guys on the ground are taking enemy fire I think you will be dam glad when my friend Lt Commander Caroline ****** [no last names as she is in Iraq now] leads her F18 squadron in to hid the bad guys [16 years as a Navy pilot and senior flight instuctor] and gets them off your ass.
oh yeah or when her husband's B2 goes back over Bagdad tonight, keep good thoughts going for both of them.
oh yeah or when her husband's B2 goes back over Bagdad tonight, keep good thoughts going for both of them.
"Would you and your frat boys have let a woman in, in college?"
...all the time. We had "little sisters", as well. We certainly didn't let them join, though, not that they'd want to in the first place.
...all the time. We had "little sisters", as well. We certainly didn't let them join, though, not that they'd want to in the first place.
oh, good, i wasn't able to do the math.
you're missing my point that two recruits, one male, one female, probably have about the same amount of insight.
As for BurlySurly's point... well, he's debating a different point than most others. For this debate to continue, everyone basically needs to state which idea/concept they're discussing.
B.S. is saying that the reality of the situation is one thing, while many others are saying how it sould be. Kinda pointless to debate to disparate subjects.
THE DEBATES:
1. Can a woman do the frontline job?
2. Should a woman be allowed?
3. What are the consequences today (what BS is discussing)?
4. Can today's consequences be "fixed" quickly, if ever?
Am I missing other sub-topics?
What about an all female front line division??? Just because the men won't be able to handle a female next to them shouldn't preclude women who have the desire and ability from fighting on the front lines if they want to.
Well that was part of what i said...
Call them what you will, but they are Marines nonetheless. That is my prediction of what would happen in that scenario. Im aware of the UCMJ and all its reprocussions, but im pretty sure thats a close second when it comes to fighting for your life and following a leader you trust.
I dont really care for your opinion of Marines. They are who they are, and many of them are great people. They've made the accomplishments in their history because of smart planning, valiant leadership and sheer guts. Disturbing that lore and tradition can do no good for the Marines or their intended mission. Mission accomplishment comes before gender equality in my book, and the book of any right-minded commander. Use your head.
Burly Surly - you're too young to be so old.
When the time comes, as I am sure it will, the marines and other branches of the armed services will adapt. The excuses and arguments you offer will not be an issue. Change will not happen overnight but it will happen in due time. Times change, people change, perceptions change - change is constant.
Adapt or die - correct?
When the time comes, as I am sure it will, the marines and other branches of the armed services will adapt. The excuses and arguments you offer will not be an issue. Change will not happen overnight but it will happen in due time. Times change, people change, perceptions change - change is constant.
Adapt or die - correct?
Like I said before, I was in both. One fraternity, one co-ed senior society. They were different, yes. To be honest, I preferred the co-ed version. We accomplished a lot more, and it was better for everyone involved. In the fraternity (all-male) I watched almost everyone deteriorate over the years from charismatic, well-balanced, athletic campus leaders to anti-social, fat drunks with no female friends. The only time it was useful was when I was so strung out that I wanted to yell and scream and break stuff and then be a fat drunken slob myself for a little while... which admittedly was fun from time to time.
Don't know if that answers the rest of the thread... just your specific question.
Perhaps,Originally posted by Serial Midget
Burly Surly - you're too young to be so old.
When the time comes, as I am sure it will, the marines and other branches of the armed services will adapt. The excuses and arguments you offer will not be an issue. Change will not happen overnight but it will happen in due time. Times change, people change, perceptions change - change is constant.
Adapt or die - correct?
But i do not see it happening until the people and the perceptions change. Im talking about dealing with the current state of the matter. These are people that i know and work with every day.
Yes, its easy to say "hey, everyone should have the right to fight for their country" and i agree. But its much easier said than done. In fact, its probably better left undone. Well, for now anyways.
think it will change as long as the physical aspect of combat remains the same. Though, I do agree if combat evolves to non physical fighting, things will change. But until we find a way of taking and keep land or an objective without plain 'ol "slugging it out" I do not think we see a change in thinking for some time.
A entire women's brigade would be an idea though............
A entire women's brigade would be an idea though............
You may be on to something there.
There is a lot to be said about all of this, huh? I can see that there are a lot of prior service members from all services, myself included (Air Force Security Police AKA Air Police AKA Security Forces).
I served from 1985 to 2002, nearly 18 years. In 1986, women were allowed back into our MOS after a very long period. I saw a large array of women come and go. FEW were as tough or could stand up to the rigors (which isn't even close in comparison to that of the Marines or Army) of the Security Police career field. This career field is one of the closest to being a grunt or jarhead (NO offense intended!) and the majority of the females that I observed could not hold up nearly as well as a male. A large majority ended up in back office positions, got pregnant and married a fellow SP (then got out) or used their femininity to have there co workers do there work for them. A few...a few were of the same standards and had the same work ethic as your average SP. A rare find....one that went above and beyond the call of duty.
Do I believe that women should be allowed the opportunity to serve on the front lines.....well, yes, I believe that if they want to participate in a combat unit and they are allowed to do so then so be it. Why should only men suffer???? They have received the same training as any other in their specialties (to include the cooks, admin, etc., i.e. BASIC TRAINING). If they do NOT want to be in a combat role then they are in the wrong line of work....it is the military and the end line job for each and every serviceperson is to be able to defend yourself and others in time of war.
I worry about all of our servicemembers, male and female, that are currently fighting this war. I worry about my young troops...the ones I left behind after I separated....making sure they are safe...making sure they are well trained....hoping none of them die.
It does not matter to me when I worry about their welfare if they are male or female. But I do know that if there are mixed sexes in the field that out of pure instinct a male will double his effort to protect a female....but, a true servicemember doubles their efforts to protect any of their comrades in arms.
Should single mothers in service be deployed??? Yes, its their job.
Should single fathers in service be deployed??? Yes again.
Should both parents in service be deployed??? Yep.
Should the sole remaining son in service be deployed??? It is a voluntary military....for now.
Should females have to register for the draft??? They fought for women's rights and should also have the burden....
Last but not least....I tip my hat to ALL veterans of war. I think that much can be learned from the frontline warriors, especially at this time, those of the Vietnam War (you know what I think).
Just my .02 cents....
I served from 1985 to 2002, nearly 18 years. In 1986, women were allowed back into our MOS after a very long period. I saw a large array of women come and go. FEW were as tough or could stand up to the rigors (which isn't even close in comparison to that of the Marines or Army) of the Security Police career field. This career field is one of the closest to being a grunt or jarhead (NO offense intended!) and the majority of the females that I observed could not hold up nearly as well as a male. A large majority ended up in back office positions, got pregnant and married a fellow SP (then got out) or used their femininity to have there co workers do there work for them. A few...a few were of the same standards and had the same work ethic as your average SP. A rare find....one that went above and beyond the call of duty.
Do I believe that women should be allowed the opportunity to serve on the front lines.....well, yes, I believe that if they want to participate in a combat unit and they are allowed to do so then so be it. Why should only men suffer???? They have received the same training as any other in their specialties (to include the cooks, admin, etc., i.e. BASIC TRAINING). If they do NOT want to be in a combat role then they are in the wrong line of work....it is the military and the end line job for each and every serviceperson
is to be able to defend yourself and others in time of war. I worry about all of our servicemembers, male and female, that are currently fighting this war. I worry about my young troops...the ones I left behind after I separated....making sure they are safe...making sure they are well trained....hoping none of them die.
It does not matter to me when I worry about their welfare if they are male or female. But I do know that if there are mixed sexes in the field that out of pure instinct a male will double his effort to protect a female....but, a true servicemember doubles their efforts to protect any of their comrades in arms.
Should single mothers in service be deployed??? Yes, its their job.
Should single fathers in service be deployed??? Yes again.
Should both parents in service be deployed??? Yep.
Should the sole remaining son in service be deployed??? It is a voluntary military....for now.
Should females have to register for the draft??? They fought for women's rights and should also have the burden....
Last but not least....I tip my hat to ALL veterans of war. I think that much can be learned from the frontline warriors, especially at this time, those of the Vietnam War (you know what I think).
Just my .02 cents....
Well said - I don't think anyone who is not qualified and capable should serve in any position. But, if they can get the job done and qualify without the bar being lowered, I think women should have the same opportunites as men. The times have already changed. 
She made it!Originally posted by N8
Ok... how does this make you all feel... especially you men???
First girl lost in the war
By WILL BARKER
A PRETTY 19-year-old country girl who joined the US Army to escape unemployment was feared to be the first woman soldier to die yesterday.
Blonde Jessica Lynch was among 12 soldiers in a US supply convoy ambushed by Iraqi troops.
(READ MORE)
YeeeeeeHawwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Youz Wemon....voice your opinionzzz! Lol.....
Seriously...Im for it if thats what they choose to do.
Dave
Seriously...Im for it if thats what they choose to do.
Dave
PS..I didnt mean to sound as if I was making light of our fallen comrade. My heart goes out to her family!
Dave
Desert Storm Vet...
Dave
Desert Storm Vet...
Good news for sure! I cannot wait to hear news of her experience and treatment while a POW.
Respect Ren & Stimpy! :angry:
Did anyone hear her mother's phone interview w/ MSNBC's Lester Holt? Her response to the first question was "NO, you've got it all screwed up! What happened was..." she followed later with (speaking to someone in the background) "I told them I couldn't do these things." And dad is throwing "one heck uv a shindig" for her b'day April 26th.
Ole' Lester couldn't get her off the phone fast enough.
You've got to love those West Virginians.
Ole' Lester couldn't get her off the phone fast enough.
You've got to love those West Virginians.