[Toshi]

Sounds like you've been influenced by the N8 media too much

The Clinton Administration had actual results against real terrorists instead of a nation (Iraq) that was known to Osama Bid Laden in the same category as the "infidels"

Someone posted this on RM before:

actually he's basing his assessment on "imperial hubris". given that the author of that book is a cia analyst i'd tend to believe him.

 

[MikeD]

actually he's basing his assessment on "imperial hubris". given that the author of that book is a cia analyst i'd tend to believe him.

I'd say that there's a heavy dose of IH in my reading right now, but the book has really just reinforced and quantified many of my thoughts and feelings...please don't take me for a one-book wonder.

MD

 

[Ridemonkey]

Yeah, but Clinton had game.

 

[MikeD]

Sounds like you've been influenced by the N8 media too much

The Clinton Administration had actual results against real terrorists instead of a nation (Iraq) that was known to Osama Bid Laden in the same category as the "infidels"

Someone posted this on RM before:

Nothing you listed is any sort of real action against terrorism. It's punishing individual terrorists, not attacking their political, financial, and logistic support networks, not removing their political base, not even negotiating politically with them to prevent future attacks...it's not 'real results' at all, except that it looks that way for most Americans, who just want to see a bad guy in jail and forget about it all.

Clinton's missile strikes in the Sudan were perhaps the worst. It's the pinnacle of effete 'standoff' warfare, which accomplishes nothing for us, fuels the fires of those who want to attack us, and makes us look weak and soft-willed.

Nevermind what I think of the CO of the Cole...

MD

 

[Toshi]

I'd say that there's a heavy dose of IH in my reading right now, but the book has really just reinforced and quantified many of my thoughts and feelings...please don't take me for a one-book wonder.

MD

my bad, i'm not accusing you of parroting.

 

[fluff]

Nothing you listed is any sort of real action against terrorism. It's punishing individual terrorists, not attacking their political, financial, and logistic support networks, not removing their political base, not even negotiating politically with them to prevent future attacks...it's not 'real results' at all, except that it looks that way for most Americans, who just want to see a bad guy in jail and forget about it all.

Clinton's missile strikes in the Sudan were perhaps the worst. It's the pinnacle of effete 'standoff' warfare, which accomplishes nothing for us, fuels the fires of those who want to attack us, and makes us look weak and soft-willed.

Nevermind what I think of the CO of the Cole...

MD

I agree. The actual bombers are probably not expected to survive long at large, if at all. They are the foot-soldiers, the equivalent of the 1,000 odd US marines who have lost their lives in Iraq (NB. I am not calling the marines terrorists). There's plenty more bombers where the few we catch come from.

And you're spot on with the killing at arms length thing, it is nowhere near as efficient as the PR would have us believe, and is the equivalent of an indiscriminate terrorist attack in many cases. If a suicide bomber antagonises the west how do people think an unmanned equivalent must feel to the recipients?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Dude, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire...

HA!

 

[fluff]

HA!

N8, for your sake I'm glad that wasn't published on a Republican website. If it were you'd be drinking your own piss by now!

You're missing Changleen, aren't you?

 

[biggins]

Actually, it's all the fault of an ignorant American public when you really get down to it, and that's what we've been saying. Whose 'fault' do you think it is, the Democrats'?

Why do you think I'm a democrat or a liberal, anyhow?

It's astounding how 95% of Americans just want to fall in on a pre-fab, pre-polarized political identity and endlessly spout the rhetoric it provides them.

MD

word

 

[dante]

N8, for your sake I'm glad that wasn't published on a Republican website. If it were you'd be drinking your own piss by now!

You're missing Changleen, aren't you?

http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dsp/links_recap.htm

what, you think N8 gets any of his information anywhere else? maybe www.townhall.com, but he's definitely a drudgie.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Drudge...

 

[dante]

Drudge...

close, but I think this one represents you and drudge a little better...

(one of the cleaner ones I found... )

 

[MikeD]

my bad, i'm not accusing you of parroting.

Mikey wants a cracker...caaaaaaaaaw...

It IS a damned good book.

 

[MikeD]

HA!

Holy crap, er, piss.

Ancient Romans used to brush their teeth with urine, but still... I gotta question the science behind the results of that study. Wow.

MS

 

[RhinofromWA]

anyone see the RNC w/ all the banners proclaiming "A Safer World"? safer for who? do any of you feel safer? i sure as hell don't.

That was because we(all of us) were blissfully ignorant before 9/11. That is why you don't feel safer.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Yo N8,

I see your Vietnam vet and raise you one cheerleader:

Dude! He just finished a beer bong leave the guy alone.

I know I never drank in college....: At 8am before football(american football) games and such....oh them were the days.

 

[Toshi]

That was because we(all of us) were blissfully ignorant before 9/11. That is why you don't feel safer.

that's a good point. but it's also becoming clear that invading iraq has pacified neither the iraqi populace or the islamic world at large, and it's very plausible that this has lead to al qaeda being strengthened. qed.

 

[biggins]

i wish people would just step the f*ck down off their high horse and realize that just because we are america it does not mean we are immune to terrorist attacks. i mean for gods sake we have the slackest border regulations, we are the most consumoing, and the richest. to even consider that the government could stop it and will stop all future attacks is rediculous. its impossible.

 

[RhinofromWA]

that's a good point. but it's also becoming clear that invading iraq has pacified neither the iraqi populace or the islamic world at large, and it's very plausible that this has lead to al qaeda being strengthened. qed.

It is the trueth. We are just as likely to get an attack on us now even with making it more difficult for people to do so.

What happens when the US pulls out of Iraq an leaves an functioning government selected by the people? Will the invading/occupying/attacking Iraq talk cease? We removed Saddam from power.... @ the next 2 words "mission accomplished"

Terrorist have come in and organized disentors to attack the US troops AND general population. To cause fear and doubt in teh eyes of the poor citizens of Iraq. The US didn't go in there fighting the Terrorists....they whent in fighting the Iraq military controled by Saddam. Once the Iraq military was no more...the terrorists took this chance to meet the US in Iraq. Stengthening Al Qaeda....maybe, or just brought them out and made them visable.

 

[Toshi]

i wish people would just step the f*ck down off their high horse and realize that just because we are america it does not mean we are immune to terrorist attacks. i mean for gods sake we have the slackest border regulations, we are the most consumoing, and the richest. to even consider that the government could stop it and will stop all future attacks is rediculous. its impossible.

but gwb says we're safer!?!?!

What happens when the US pulls out of Iraq an leaves an functioning government selected by the people?

wake me up when this is accomplished.

Once the Iraq military was no more...the terrorists took this chance to meet the US in Iraq. Stengthening Al Qaeda....maybe, or just brought them out and made them visable.

show me some evidence that contradicts that which ohio's posted:

9/11 yes, Iraq no. You're buying a lie.

In Iraq we are facing radical tribal groups, some fundamentalist (usually the Shiite) some secular (mostly Sunni... Saddam's old buddies). It's a power struggle, partially against each other, partially against the new Iraqi "government" and partially against American "occupiers" (in quotes because that's THEIR belief, not mine). NONE of these are technically terrorist groups. They are armed militants engaging (mostly) other armed non-civilians (though they are clearly less discriminate about that than Geneva convention would like).

The ONLY Islamic terrorism in Iraq is what has come in from the outside, because Iraq is now the closest place to Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi arabia to find Westerners to terrorise. This is a tiny number of people, and a miniscule problem compared to the tribal groups mentioned above. Bush and Cheney would like you to think of it as all one problem and all one group. For all I know Bush might actually believe that.

key quote: "The ONLY Islamic terrorism in Iraq is ... a tiny number of people, and a miniscule problem compared to the tribal groups mentioned above"

 

[RhinofromWA]

key quote: "The ONLY Islamic terrorism in Iraq is ... a tiny number of people, and a miniscule problem compared to the tribal groups mentioned above"

So you are argueing the "Islamic" tag on the whole terroist title...



I say they are still terrorists. You can micro describe them if you like....doesn't change who they are.....but I bet it helps you form your opinions.

I am out of here......office is letting out early....have a good weekend guys! I am working my motorcycle race and then playing on a Back hoe a buddy is renting to do yard work this weekend I am going to rupture a line I know it. lol

 

[Changleen]

key quote: "The ONLY Islamic terrorism in Iraq is ... a tiny number of people, and a miniscule problem compared to the tribal groups mentioned above"

This is correct. Although I would like to add that the Shi'a ARE NOT by fundamentalists by nature. In fact they are known to be one of the more moderate Islamic groups. They're just pissed with GW.

 

[Toshi]

I am working my motorcycle race and then playing on a Back hoe a buddy is renting to do yard work this weekend I am going to rupture a line I know it. lol

do you have a sandy patch of ground nearby? you could use that backhoe to dig a nice head-sized hole for your use, if you haven't done so already...

/ / / :thereisnohope:

 

[Changleen]

I say they are still terrorists. You can micro describe them if you like....doesn't change who they are.....but I bet it helps you form your opinions.

Actually, It TOTALLY changes who they are! Their individual motivations and background are vitally important to understanding why they are doing what they are doing, and what you can do to stop them. I think you're falling into the old GW trap of bunching them in all together. 'Evil' - 'Terrorists' - surely you've seen enough to know this is never going to work? The motivation for an Iraqi civilian fighting the US are utterly different from those of external Arab forces who are using the opportunity to spread chaos. You can't just lump them together, shoot them and hope the problem goes away. That is short sighted republican think.

 

[MikeD]

the Shi'a ARE NOT by fundamentalists by nature. In fact they are known to be one of the more moderate Islamic groups.

Well, except for the entire shi'ite fundamentalist state of Iran (whose fascinating demographic I mentioned earlier...might be a ripe time for change there, for better or worse.)

And militant Sunnis, like Al-Queada, can now come and go through Iraq's porus borders at will. In fact, because we barely killed any of them in Afghanistan, there are a lot looking for a place to crash these days. Oddly enough, they'll now likely join forces with Sunni ba'athists, which would have been unthinkable prior to the Iraq war. Yes, that's right...Al-Queada looked at Saddam's ba'athist regime as a sacreligious abomination prior to the war. While it's possible they had diplomatic sorts of contacts, they sure weren't bedfellows until now.

MD

 

[Changleen]

Well, except for the entire shi'ite fundamentalist state of Iran (whose fascinating demographic I mentioned earlier...might be a ripe time for change there, for better or worse.)

Dude, Iran really isn't that fundamentalist, no matter what GW would have you belive! Even popular tourist destination the Maldives has stricter Islamic law. Anyway...

And militant Sunnis, like Al-Queada, can now come and go through Iraq's porus borders at will. In fact, because we barely killed any of them in Afghanistan, there are a lot looking for a place to crash these days. Oddly enough, they'll now likely join forces with Sunni ba'athists, which would have been unthinkable prior to the Iraq war. Yes, that's right...Al-Queada looked at Saddam's ba'athist regime as a sacreligious abomination prior to the war. While it's possible they had diplomatic sorts of contacts, they sure weren't bedfellows until now.

MD

So, Rhino, Like I said - It does matter who they are. Terrorist lumping doesn't help anyone except for the NeoCons.

 

[MikeD]

Dude, Iran really isn't that fundamentalist, no matter what GW would have you belive! Even popular tourist destination the Maldives has stricter Islamic law.

I was more basing that on the fact that it's ruled by a shi'ite theocracy which was installed by popular uprising. Its internal laws, which I know little about save for that they're sharia, might not be excessively restrictive, I supppose, but they're still 'fundamentalist' in my opinion. I think GW would rather have us not consider Iran at all at the moment; he's got his/our hands full already.

 

[biggins]

the problem is that we as americans NEED to find someone to blame for the problem to keep the blame off of ourselves as a culture. we are greedy, overconsuming, glutonous demanding people with chips on our shoulders and it pisses everyone else off. what we need to realize is that not everything is preventable, and in saying that, we also need to realize that we as individuals, as a culture, and as a country need to take a little accountability for our actions.

 

[Lexx D]

the problem is that we as americans NEED to find someone to blame for the problem to keep the blame off of ourselves as a culture. we are greedy, overconsuming, glutonous demanding people with chips on our shoulders and it pisses everyone else off. what we need to realize is that not everything is preventable, and in saying that, we also need to realize that we as individuals, as a culture, and as a country need to take a little accountability for our actions.

Well said. Although others will still say how perfect we are.

 

[biggins]

Well said. Although others will still say how perfect we are.

of course they will but the truly enlightened know better than to beleive that.

 

[Lexx D]

of course they will but the truly enlightened know better than to beleive that.

Ahh, enlightment, the way of buddha.

 

[MikeD]

Well said. Although others will still say how perfect we are.

Not so sure about that. As easy as it is to be a self-hating American these days, and believe me, there are a lot of things pissing me off, I don't believe America is somehow uniquely bad. We're just more powerful and more numerous than other people in the world, so people point to us and see us as the roots of evil that's just normal humanity, the world over.

Our drive to succeed, especially financially, looks ugly...but it's what everyone is trying to do, regardless of the language in which they cloak it. Dominanace is a side effect of this...and as I've said before, I think it's amusing to hear criticism about this from a bunch of post-colonial Euro plunderers who absconded their roles and left the world in chaos for the rest of us to deal with while they sit back and nitpick and self-congratulate on their enlightenment.

America is unique, and we're getting pretty fat and soft as a consequence of our success. We do indeed need to change our mindset, not to appease others, but as a matter of survival...but I don't think we necessarily need to sit around and look at our contemporaries for a model of how we should be, either. Then again, maybe we should make The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire mandatory 4th-grade reading or something.

MD

 

[Changleen]

I don't believe America is somehow uniquely bad.
MD

Good post BTW... America isn't uniquely bad, far from it, it's just as the world's only remaining (current?) superpower, the US really ought to be setting a better example? I mean if it's OK for GW to lie through his teeth, murder hundreds of thousands for his own ends and torture captives, why shouldn't anyone else?

 

[Changleen]

This is one of the best threads for ages.