10 Speed X7 anyone?
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It's funny, you hear the same arguments whenever something new is released.
Arguments against suspension bikes:
1. We don't need it, what we have is fine
2. It's too heavy
3. It's too complicated
4. The manufacturer's are trying to screw us.
Arguments against moving to disc brakes from V-brakes:
1. We don't need it, what we have is fine
2. It's too heavy
3. It's too complicated
4. The manufacturer's are trying to screw us.
Arguments against moving from 8 to 9 speeds (or 6-7, 7-8, take your pick):
1. We don't need it, what we have is fine
2. It's too heavy
3. It's too complicated
4. The manufacturer's are trying to screw us.
You could go on and on.
If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or wait a year or two until it's even better. Just like I would never buy a first gen Apple product (I prefer to waste my money on bike stuff), wait until all of the real or percieved weaknesses are worked out. Or, stick to your 8 speeds and triple chainring if that makes you happy.
It's just a bike after all.
Arguments against suspension bikes:
1. We don't need it, what we have is fine
2. It's too heavy
3. It's too complicated
4. The manufacturer's are trying to screw us.
Arguments against moving to disc brakes from V-brakes:
1. We don't need it, what we have is fine
2. It's too heavy
3. It's too complicated
4. The manufacturer's are trying to screw us.
Arguments against moving from 8 to 9 speeds (or 6-7, 7-8, take your pick):
1. We don't need it, what we have is fine
2. It's too heavy
3. It's too complicated
4. The manufacturer's are trying to screw us.
You could go on and on.
If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or wait a year or two until it's even better. Just like I would never buy a first gen Apple product (I prefer to waste my money on bike stuff), wait until all of the real or percieved weaknesses are worked out. Or, stick to your 8 speeds and triple chainring if that makes you happy.
It's just a bike after all.
Yeah, but they were talking about it a year ago too. My point is that there are people that want it and it's not a mass rebellion against SRAM for giving the public something they don't want.
I have been using 2x9 for about 7 yrs now and eventually converted most of my buddies. the only time the holdouts use their 44t ring is when cruising back to the car on the road.
I have'nt ever heard anyone say they wish they had an extra gear (or two). But I've definitely seen people curse, swear, bitch, rant, throw bikes in the forest, because of bad shifting. sometimes more than once on a ride.
Now, if what marshalolson says is true, and that they can make 10 or 11 speed shift better, then great. But I don't know why they couldn't apply that technology to 9 sp.
for the record, for most of my cross country riding I would probably be able to make do with 1xwhatever if there was a 36 in the back. So I'm kinda guessing that I may end up going to this system, I just wish it hadn't been with a narrower chain.
I have'nt ever heard anyone say they wish they had an extra gear (or two). But I've definitely seen people curse, swear, bitch, rant, throw bikes in the forest, because of bad shifting. sometimes more than once on a ride.
Now, if what marshalolson says is true, and that they can make 10 or 11 speed shift better, then great. But I don't know why they couldn't apply that technology to 9 sp.
for the record, for most of my cross country riding I would probably be able to make do with 1xwhatever if there was a 36 in the back. So I'm kinda guessing that I may end up going to this system, I just wish it hadn't been with a narrower chain.
As I've mentioned twice before - Shimano already sells a 12-36T 9 Speed LX/Deore cassette, similar quality to X7 cassettes. If you do the gear calcs rather than guessing or going with hype, the difference between 34 and 36T is super small - its not worth the weight and need of a special derailleur to accommodate such a small difference in gear ratios:
http://www.bti-usa.com/public/item/SH35711
Required Rear D:
http://www.bti-usa.com/public/item/SH42761
Do the math, 11-34T is fine vesus 12-36T
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/
i got 99 problems, but a shift aint one
Interesting, why would you need a specific RD with that cassette? I'm currently running a Hone SG derailleur, an 11-34 cassette, and 32 and 11 chainrings. I wouldn't mind trying that 12-36 cassette to see if I could do away with my granny ring and front derailleur. I can't imagine I'd have much to lose other than the cost of the cassette. And it would be sweet to not have to worry about front shifting... hmmmm
I know you say the diff between 34 and 36 is super small, but I only need a wee little bit more "gears" with my 32 up front and a 34 out back... Sheldon's calculator says the gain ratio would be 1.7 with 36 vs. 1.8 with 34... now I just need to see how that would translate in the real world.
Not enough angle adjustment (clearance) via the b-limit adjuster. the chain wouldn't clear between the cog and the upper puller on the derailer without binding/snagging.
riiight... of course. which is why someone mentionned a longer b-limit screw earlier.
I guess my main reticence with 10 sp. is caus' I really like my Hone setup and I'm not willing to part ways with it just yet. Yeah it's heavy, but it's durable and I can get it set up so nice a crisp now that I don't have to worry about derailleur hangers anymore... Still I'm going to check how much clearance I have between the upper jockey wheel and the 34 tooth ring tonight. It would be cool if I could make it work somehow...
Sorry for the threadrift, but this has been helpful. Thanks guys.
It's not the screw itself, its the maximum distance of the upper pulley from the axle - which is determined by the shape/spacing of the components that a derailer is made from. A longer b-limit screw can you only get you so much extra space, and not enough to clear a 36t cog.
Its easy to figure out, find a granny gear combo with a 11-28 to 11-34t setup that has ratios really close to 1.7 and 1.8 and try them on the same hill. If you luck out one of your friends with a granny ring has that setup.
A 32x34 is the same ratio (1.8) as the third easiest 22x24 on traditional triple 22/32/44 11-32T drivetrain. I don't know about you, but I rarely come across situations were the those last two are of any real use or I was so weak I couldn't push that ratio if needed.
You can get 1.7 on a 26x30 (26x11-34T cassette). I use to run a 26/38 dual setup when I first switched to dual ring drivetrains about 10 years ago but eventually settled on 24/36T w/11-34T.
With the higher resulting ratios (I think 1.9 vs 2.0) on 29ers that small difference might actually be that make or break your talk about but not on 26ers - 1.8 is fine for climbing.
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Bit late, but if SRAM wanted to get the OEM's to move to 10spd, that's easy, make it cheaper than the 9spd.
$$$ is king and kids will still buy the bikes and the 9spd is so 2009, 10spd is the money peaty is riding it marketing will beat the 10 people e-arguing here...
(gona keep reading the thread now lol)
I really hate hearing the "the chain is weaker" arguement. thats a load of crap, the pins are the same material, the links are the same, the roller design is the same, everything that makes the chain strong is still the same. We have had three DH bikes in the area setup with 10speed since ten speed was released. Funny how it works just fine, DA derailleur, cassette, and Flatbar roadie shifter....... Was super easy to setup, holding up just fine to abuse like any other DA combo setup, and now we are starting to see some Mtn bike specific 10 speed.... so now we are getting something on teh stronger side for Mtn bikes.
We have absolutly a TON of cross bikes setup with ten and eleven speed setups....... they work great. Watch these guys race sometimes some absolutely caked with mud, sand, grass.... still shifting just fine, not skipping performing just fine. The crap I clean out of the cross racers Drivetrains is just mind blowing sometimes.
I quoted MDJ because he hit it right on the head, everyone that thinks people are not asking for this..... need to catch up, the DH crowd is teh only place people are not asking for it, sorry to anyone that just cant see this, but DH is NOT were the profit is for these companies, if it was, they would listen to what teh DH crowd is asking for.... Is it marketing...Sure.... But its because it is what is being asked for, the manf's are just following were the profit is.
When eight speed was still the norm, people were already asking for ten speed in the back, its what the true majority are asking for.
I do agree however, that a 36 tooth in the rear is just a waste, Im not getting into the weight arguement, or anything like that, I just look at what your truly gaining vs cost, and the ratio just isnt good enough for that to be worth while. Your just not going to gain enough with teh 36 to justify the cost, I know of a few people that have gone and replaced there 34's with 36's... and didnt swap there derailleurs, according th them all is working well, but we will see over time how it ends up.
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Actually, no special rear needed...if running a single ring up front at least. I have played with this cassette on my hardtail and a 5" rear travel bike and both setups worked just fine with a short cage SRAM X.9, no longer b-tension bolt needed.
No idea on a two ring setup.
Now, SRAM and Shimano need to make them with a nice alu carrier, like the XT or X.9 level cassettes, so as to not screw with alu freehub bodies.
Or: : individual cogs pre-made with a wide based, integrated alu carrier. 11-36 or whatever tooth count, and you buy whichever cogs you want to build up your gearing with. That would rock, and not dig into alu freehub bodies. Wonder how much more that system would cost. OTOH, you'd be able to replace the most worn cogs one at a time, and wouldn't need to be paying for a new lockring as part of the cassette cost every time either. Or even having every two cogs or something paired together to purchase like that.
That will vary with frames. Some frames will need the longer bolt even with smaller maximum cog size.
A recipe for crappy shifting. The less worn cogs will be shaped to the looser/stretched chain while the new ones won't.
Finally!
I can't tell you how many times I just couldn't find the right gear. If only I had tighter ratios/larger cogs/an extra click I would have won more races/had more fun/saved more babies/had a bigger wang with which to impress Kidwoo.
Everything is a piece of crap these days.
I can't tell you how many times I just couldn't find the right gear. If only I had tighter ratios/larger cogs/an extra click I would have won more races/had more fun/saved more babies/had a bigger wang with which to impress Kidwoo.
Everything is a piece of crap these days.
I'm not buying it.
Who wants to shift gears more, for less difference in cadence?
I'd rather a 8 or 9 speed with a 34-36, to me, that would be a better set up.
For whoever above said the cyclo cross guys where doing fine on 10 speed, I don't believe it. They WOULD have more mis shifts, there's no denying it, not sure if it's as easy as working out the difference in % of tolerances, but if so, wow, that's 10% worse, who the f*** wants that. Harden the f*** up, it's mountain biking. Who wants to worry about their fancy ass expensive crap not working properly, who has time to clean lube and jerk off with cables and adjustment.
Give me my 8 speed, improve the shifting with new technoligy, and I'll be happy.
The scam is gently making us more used to more fragile drive trains.
How thin will a 10 speed sprocket be compared to an 8 speed?
Will I need to run a thin spacer behind the cassette when I make a custom block?
It is just a bike, that's the point.
I want to get on, and thrash the **** out of that bad boy, not f*** around with barrel adjusters, or worrying when I load my bike that the mech doesn't get leant on.
3 rings on the front is dud, and is great to get rid of, but it can be done with 9 or 8 speed with the right geared cassette, and even less mucking about with set up, and mis shifts.
I notice I suffer riding my 11-30 0r 32 6 speed set up, is noticeably a tad more painful, but the anger makes me stronger, and I power harder as I usually opt for the slightly harder gear in the option, or fall back to a slighly too easy gear and fully recoupe.
Yeah I'm pissed. I want a well made 8 speed set up, that I can pull apart, and do whatever the hell I want with.
Who wants to shift gears more, for less difference in cadence?
I'd rather a 8 or 9 speed with a 34-36, to me, that would be a better set up.
For whoever above said the cyclo cross guys where doing fine on 10 speed, I don't believe it. They WOULD have more mis shifts, there's no denying it, not sure if it's as easy as working out the difference in % of tolerances, but if so, wow, that's 10% worse, who the f*** wants that. Harden the f*** up, it's mountain biking. Who wants to worry about their fancy ass expensive crap not working properly, who has time to clean lube and jerk off with cables and adjustment.
Give me my 8 speed, improve the shifting with new technoligy, and I'll be happy.
The scam is gently making us more used to more fragile drive trains.
How thin will a 10 speed sprocket be compared to an 8 speed?
Will I need to run a thin spacer behind the cassette when I make a custom block?
It is just a bike, that's the point.
I want to get on, and thrash the **** out of that bad boy, not f*** around with barrel adjusters, or worrying when I load my bike that the mech doesn't get leant on.
3 rings on the front is dud, and is great to get rid of, but it can be done with 9 or 8 speed with the right geared cassette, and even less mucking about with set up, and mis shifts.
I notice I suffer riding my 11-30 0r 32 6 speed set up, is noticeably a tad more painful, but the anger makes me stronger, and I power harder as I usually opt for the slightly harder gear in the option, or fall back to a slighly too easy gear and fully recoupe.
Yeah I'm pissed. I want a well made 8 speed set up, that I can pull apart, and do whatever the hell I want with.
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hit me!i got 99 problems, but a shift aint one
You can belive that it mishifts more all you want, until your out running support at a cross race, your just blowing hot air. You would seriously be amazed at how well these ten speed and eleven speed setups are working under these applications, and how well they are taking the abuse.
I understand that some people want to still have less gears, tahts fine, I udnerstand that a DH "race" application less gears actually makes sense.
I know myself I have nine speed on my DH bike, it works fine, it doesnt misshift, I dont snap chains, I dont have weaker gears.............
Sorry to ramble, I jsut really hate hearing the "its weaker arguement".... it isnt.
I didn't say it's weaker as such(ie chains), I stated it's more delicate. "Blowing hot air", your testing is trivial, and not really supported by anything, the tollerances are about 10% narrower(even with a thinner chain) than the already tight 9 speed. Sure on a brand new bike, it can probably tolerate grass etc better than a used set up. But still not s good as a new 8 speed. It's not as robust, simple as that, it will go out of tune easier, simple as that. The drivetrain is the weakest link on a DH bike, who wants it weaker, for no gain, and more hassle.
Do you ride your DH bike? Hard? In rough conditions?
Like I stated earlier, this is the DH section, and I was corrected in that some people need a low gear to get to the top, There is a cheap shimano cassette with a massive climbing gear, buy that.
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I just ordered a bunch of 10sp stuff and some new 9sp stuff to test. I will let you guys know what I find. My general riding conditions are pretty brutal so I think if there are issues then I should find them quick. I am pretty stoked on the XX 11-34T cassette that weighs close to what my Dura Ace cassettes do.
Cool, I'd be curious to see what you think after the stuffs a bit flogged out, like after 6 months or so. Also curious if the extra shifting will prove to be a +(for gear selection) or -(for just being anoying).
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I will let you guys know what I find out. It is raining right now all the way to the top so the snow is melting and the upper trails should be dry in early spring, I hope. The lower ones are already good to go.
I beat the **** out of my DH bike, it doesnt go out of tune. The biggest thing I see on dh bikes that lets them go out of tune is the hangers getting bent, and just general out of tune to begin with.
DH guys have been running road parts for years, and people have not been having problems with it.
You can hate the gears all you want, but you should probably get used to the idea that eight speed, seven speed, and six speeds for hi end parts are not going to make a come back.
I said it before, Ill say it again...... This is the only place I see hate for more gears. the DH section of ridemonkey. You can bitch that the man'f need to bring back hi end seven and eight speeds all you want, but when the niche is sooo small.... they arent listening.
As for the testing, how is it trivial when this is what everyone is running for cross racing. A sport that is very brutal on a bike, works great in that application, Massive amounts of stutter, slop, grass, dirt, mudd, muck, sand.... all kinds of crap in teh drivetrain..... Guess what...... still works just fine. This is the part I hate to break it to everyone, Road and Cross racing are immensly larger than DH, and those groups are the groupos asking for more in the back.... sooo thats what we are getting.
I hate bikes and any new technology that comes along with them!
The hangers will need to be bent less, and the tune will not need to be as bad for the 10 speed to skip gears. This is what I'm talking about, I'd guess that the new stuff is actually stiffer than the old stuff, and hopefully better made, the quality and strength of the deraileurs, and the shifting prowess of the mechs, and chain aren't a concern, they'll no doubt, be better, the fact it goes out of tune easier due to the tighter tolerances is what I don't like, and a small gripe with not needing more gears.
Road parts aren't the issue, road parts were/are in some instances, more suited to DH(short cages/cheap, and non climbing gear cassetts, that I found were too closesly geared).
With the cross racing, are all the bikes new?
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i find it funny that this is the only place that people are anti-10 speed
And anti dual crown Domain and anti new Turner DHR
I run a 1x9 32 x 11-34. Plenty of gear choices. This new stuff looks nice and I bet it is but not euff for me to give up what already runs great.
how could i forget
Alright check it out, First let me say this.... I get what your saying about how close the gearing is ETC ETC. Im not saying that what you are saying about gear ranges for dh is wrong either, for lift access, race application... sure less may very well be better.
What I am saying is simple, dont let yourself belive that this isnt going to work properly untill you actually try it. You actually just listed in your own post why it works..... The parts are phenominally better, hangers are stiffer, the design of the rear mechs holds up ALOT better.
No not all of these cross bikes are new, alot of them are pretty haggered up, old designed and they work just as well was the new bikes. I get what your saying about the tolerances being closer, but understand the designers have taken that into account and designed these so they still work, and stay in adjustment better than you would belive.
Overall, looking at the numbers can tell you alot, but nothing beats actually trying it.
Thats what ive been trying to say
I see... We should favor the opinions of the geniuses on pinkbike and mtbr forums instead
:insert face palm here:I see... We should favor the opinions of the geniuses on pinkbike and mtbr forums instead
i dont know how many of you guys work at shops and have to get 10speed tripples to work on road bikes... but omg they suck.. i am not a fan of 10speed. but would be interesting to see how this works out..
how many triple 10 speed setups do you actually see??
None that are spec'd. Seen one that a guy just insisted on........ sucked.... cage length wouldnt match up...IE short cage on a tripple makes for a bitch.
exactly. i dont know anyone that would want a 3x10
Dear Hadley,
Make me a 3 speed internal 150mm DH hub.
Signed,
Me
P.S. I know at least 3 people who will buy one, maybe a few more.
I'll pay good money for it.
Make me a 3 speed internal 150mm DH hub.
Signed,
Me
P.S. I know at least 3 people who will buy one, maybe a few more.
I'll pay good money for it.
I dont know of many road bikes that are getting setup with tripples anymore at all anymore. What I am seeing more of is the people that want to be on the lower geared ended<spinners> just go with compacts..... you know a 50/34 instead of a 52/39. Im a masher myself, I man up, stand up, and hammer it out in the high gears baby!!!
On road bikes I'm assuming?
if that's the case, then trek, specialized, cannondale, and giant all offer 3x10 set ups for the older folks looking for fancy hybrids with drop bars.