2011 World Cup Finale - Val di Sole
- Thread starter slyfink
- Start date
The kid is amazing, give him 2 years and I think he'll be on the podium every race. Can't wait to see what Minaar and Atherton do about 2012, they both have work ahead of them and I hope they too push the level higher. Hart is phenomenal, that roost was amazing but if you compare it to Gwin's "less impressive looking" line through that turn you can see how Gwin is a technician, didn't need to brake since like a top downhill skier he entered the turn higher and carried speed effortlessly where Hart needed that phenomenal roost since he was too deep into the turn. He saved it phenomenally but that roost must have cost time.
The fastest looking riders are typically not the fastest, Missy was the exception but she didn't have serious competition until Anne Caro. Remember watching both of them at Mt Snow in 2001 at the Yard Sale and Missy was crazy through there but my buddy timed Anne Caro and she was actually a full second faster in the Yard Sale. Brosnan looked awesome but maybe got a little too loose in sections which may have cost time too. Gwin is simply an extremely focused tactician, may be boring by not partying after a record 5 WC wins but is constantly focused on the next race. Probably had a Gluten Free Paleo dinner after that win and to bed by 9:00!
Personally, I prefer Steve Peat's style more as DH MTB has always been more about fun but Gwin is applying techniques from other mature racing sports such as WC skiing... and it's working! Hope we always have the Steve Peats in this sport though, awesome seeing him talking to the guys in the hot seat with a brew in his hand, win some/lose some but always having fun.
^^^ When Gwin was asked about partying he looked rather embarrassed at the interviewers response, there's no bull**** with that man tho, no talking himself up or trying to make himself seem cool or down with the kids, he's just playing his own game. One which to the detriment of everyone else is 100% focused/dedicated. It's funny that tiny snippet of him and his response made me admire him even more.
agreed. Gwin seems like a class act. Just makes watching him win even more enjoyable.
Yep, In all the excitement I was convinced it was Brosnan but I just watched the replay and it was indeed Hart. The rest of my statement stands though.
Exactly. Anyone who's run alpine gates can see where Gwin's got the edge this year.
He's not just seeing the smoothest lines or riding the smoothest. His lines are plotted to minimize braking needs, to make the roundest turns... and the smartest turns.
The thing of "exploding a berm" is really juvenile fun-making. It's also a photo-jock's wet dream. But it's not really where the speed is. Ask any ski racer. The fastest line involves the minimum amount of drift, the maximum amount of carve, with the greatest fidelity to the fall line.
What Whitely said during the LaBresse freecaster about young riders calming down and finding what's faster... this has been the essence of alpine race training forever. That's why the best skiers on any ski hill usually are people who were in race programs as kids. They've learned how to use the hill to their advantage from an early age.
Being a highly talented bike rider with big balls sure helps matters, as does a youth racing BMX and moto. But vision and tranquility in the line selection are starting to outweigh bike skills and big balls alone.
Sam Hill's love of turn drifting and high skills otherwise in cornering put him well ahead in the last big surge. Gwin's just got a refined version of what Hill brought to the elite levels.
Now everyone's got to go learn what Gwin's already learned.
Last edited:
Gwin has been awesome this year, i feel though that with Bronsan riding at the level he is at the age he is, has a slight advantage over the older boys and is the next big thing. I'm sure Gee and Greg will step up their game but this year they've pretty much had rug pulled from beneath their feet, like 2007. Its hard to be at the top for someone to appear and just make you look daft. I'm choking to see how Hill returns next year...i think he has the ability to take it to Gwin week in, week out (assuming he is up to full fitness/mentally strong).
If they are both on the same team, I think Brosnan will out perform Hill and make things interesting in the Specialized camp...
This is all fine and dandy, but Hart's lower section was 1.4 seconds faster than Gwin's.
I don't know exactly where he made that time up...not saying it was those corners, but who knows...
The kids are alright.
How about this Loic Bruni as well? Don't hear much about him, but this 1st year junior is putting up monster results (I think as a whole better than even Troy did last year?). As much as I think it's Troy's race to lose in the World Champs, Bruni may very well have an outside shot of edging him out given what he's shown this year.
How about this Loic Bruni as well? Don't hear much about him, but this 1st year junior is putting up monster results (I think as a whole better than even Troy did last year?). As much as I think it's Troy's race to lose in the World Champs, Bruni may very well have an outside shot of edging him out given what he's shown this year.
I don't think Gwin came along with some secret formula or real variation on the game. He's actually just replicating history.
Wide arcing turns with minimal braking and fluidity of motion are the #1 combination for speed in any sport. The thing I've learned watching World Cup riders is they focus on the element of motion at all times.
All the top guys are getting up and over every obstacle on the course and letting the wheels roll with as little resistance as possible.
Whitley is right that Hart & Brosnan are so intent on hitting turns and lines harder and faster than anyone else that they can't see 100 yards down track what that line just did to their top speed.
If Hart flowed and sprinted an entire track, he'd be Sam Hill clipped in. That crazy grass line he took up high on the bank exiting the woods was a gainer of time, but then he bashed a berm and killed his final sprint to the finish.
Where Hill has had everyone is that he doesn't let the bike hit anything to slow him. Skip, hop and sweep is how I've seen him in person. His bike is silent b/c of the effort he's putting in.
I'm not saying Hart is slow. I didn't even mention Danny Hart. You're taking what I said out of context.
If you think pinball looseness is what is going to carry the day forever, if you seriously think that... and aren't just provoking for an e-fight... I wonder about your analytic skills and foresight. Would you coach or manage a DH team by encouraging pinball looseness, raggedy wildness as an over-arching race tactic?
How long do you think your racers would last? Would any of them still be racing after age 27 or so? How many of them would be retired from injuries?
Lots of DH racers want to be arrogant and closed-minded, assuming no other sports can teach them anything. Even "bikejames" last year was suggesting that pedaling dynamics learned by roadies were irrelevant to his coaching of Gwin, and argued for staying on flat pedals even on pedally courses. He wasn't even willing to listen to road racing lessons learned over many years. Why is that? And for the few who are open minded, they tend to agree that only moto is worth looking into. Which leaves out a whole lot of athletic endeavor, a lot of speed sports where analogies can be found.
Alpine ski racing could teach 4x and DH racers a lot, if they were willing to listen, look, learn. Or it could be something that slips by their attention.
I'm not saying Danny Hart is slow, I'm not saying he's boring to watch, I'm not saying he wasn't quick on his final run yesterday. I'm not talking about Danny Hart.
I'd love for Hill to get serious about next season and train more/worry less about how much paint he can put on himself or how much he can be like Shaun Palmer. Before his injury he wasn't really a threat for the top 3 this year.
Minaar on the other hand, he responded very well when Sam stormed the scene and I think he'll respond again and be a top rider for another few years.
same for last year too...sans World Champs
I didn't say he had a secret formula. You're as bad as pslide with the distortion of my posts, Butch. Jeez.
When Sam Hill has a winning run by drifting most of his turns, that suggests someone can beat Sam by NOT drifting those same turns while riding the in-between-turns section similarly to Sam.
I didn't say Gwin had a "real variation on the game." I'm only suggesting he's learned something that others haven't learned yet. The others may have it in their minds, conceptually -- but they haven't learned how to do it yet. If they had, this season wouldn't have been a 5 of 7 blowout by Gwin.
You can argue it however you like to play at sophistry to seem clever, but the simple fact is when someone dominates a season like Gwin has, he has learned how to do something that everyone else isn't doing... yet.
I'm sure you remember far back enough in racing to have seen how Vouilloz stepped it up beyond the others. How did he do that?
Too many racers want to think it's just "well he has good genes" or something like "too much natural talent". Bah. Everyone at that level has natural talent.
Also... you said all speed sports are relevant. To an extent, yes. But how many involve going down a hill over natural terrain? Throttle-jockey sports are good for teaching composure at speed, and basic line selection. But they lack what alpine ski racing brings to the mix: how to use gravity and the terrain, not a throttle, to enhance your speed, line and traction.
Last edited:
First, great post SuspectDevice, good read.
Gwin: No partying and head already preparing for Worlds. So nice to get the feeling that w/ an American in the spotlight we're not going to see a Twitter pic of him roasting a bong or something stupid.
Finally, I'd like to see Brendog rehab/train under the watch of Barel, I just think that would be magic.
Gwin: No partying and head already preparing for Worlds. So nice to get the feeling that w/ an American in the spotlight we're not going to see a Twitter pic of him roasting a bong or something stupid.
Finally, I'd like to see Brendog rehab/train under the watch of Barel, I just think that would be magic.
I'm sure Sam will be fine. It was only a few years ago when everyone was wondering if Minnaar was tailing off. Turned out that proper rehabilitation and surgical procedures vs. racing with a quick release shoulder was all that was necessary for him to get back to being one of the big dogs.
It doesn't appear to be well publicized, but I've gotten the impression that Sam hasn't been 100% healthy for quite some time now and has been ripe for the picking from the WC field at the moment.
and gwin said his lower section was slow and he didn't feel great about how he rode it. did he have another 1.4 seconds in him if he rode it how he wanted? who knows, and nobody's perfect but obviously gwin has the ability to dissect a track, find smooth fast lines and figure out how to take advantages from it.
Alpine Slug, where did I distort your post? I just mentioned a fact, Hart was faster in the lower section. Didn't mean to imply anything other than to bring that up.
We can certainly learn from other sports, but alpine skiing is quite a bit different. Generally you don't have two line options, one including a berm. Thing about berms is you can carry more speed into them, and if you hit them right, you can carry more speed through them.
I don't know what was fastest at Val di Sole, I'd be a presumptuous moron to even guess.
I don't know what was fastest at Val di Sole, I'd be a presumptuous moron to even guess.
Vital's finals slideshow has a awesome pic of Hart destroying that berm at the bottom
http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/2011-UCI-World-Cup-Val-di-Sole-Downhill-Finals,2684/Slideshow,0/sspomer,2?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=spotlight
http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/2011-UCI-World-Cup-Val-di-Sole-Downhill-Finals,2684/Slideshow,0/sspomer,2?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=spotlight
gwin just won 5/7 world cups. In one year, he equaled gee athertons total career wins (a man who is a very strong threat for the podium every race). Sam Hill killed it in 2007, but in 2008/2009, he also killed it. And then proceeded to injure himself in 2010, so he was only able to manage to win one race, and a little one at that (world champs). Once he's healthy again, he will be back to his usual winning form, don't doubt it. His sun hasn't set.
Greg minnaar, nuff said. The dude averages podiums and eats rocks for breakfast, this was about as off a year as you'll see from him, but like every other year, guarantee he'll be back next year faster then ever.
Gee atherton on the podium is a given barring mechanicals. I don't buy this "new school is here to replace the old guard" bs. Hill is out with an injury and peat is old (although I'm still expecting a better season from him next year, what with the broken hand this year), there are two spots that have opened up, but I am willing to be that hill will be back to reclaim his spot, and next year, gee, and minnaar have no intention of giving up their top 5 spots.
Its a pretty sure bet that next year, the top 5 regulars will be gwin, hill, minnaar, gee, and one other and it'll be business as usual. And everybody else will struggle for the left overs.
Last edited:
Every turn gets a rut and you can either ride the rut or not... in alpine ski racing. The difference is that the rut is more dangerous on skis, more dependable on a bike.
In skiing you have many line options. You probably either don't race alpine gates, or aren't very good at it. There are many techniques and tactics to offer line choice in alpine ski racing. Apparently you're unaware of them.
If I wanted to return to Danny Hart's mention in your post, I'd say this: in a ski racing analogy, if I were asked as an interested observer what I'd suggest to Danny Hart, this is what I'd say:
emulate GS turns more than slalom and DH turns, dude.
And I'd say the same to any wild-and-loose pinballer.
I don't have any kind of coaching pedigree. I'm just a dude who has been skiing and riding bikes his whole life, who has been coached by some good coaches, who has learned how to analyze movement, line selection, terrain use. Not saying I'm worthy of coaching a UCI Men's Elite team of any kind. Not saying I could race at anything close to their level. Just saying what comes to my mind as an interested observer.
Pretty much like everyone else in this and similar threads here, and elsewhere around the Toobz.
A good student of a sport is willing to listen to advice and ideas from anywhere, not just from the avowed or admitted "experts." You never know where good ideas will come from. And the best coaches, they're not always the best racers or best competitive athletes in the sports they coach. Often they're not; often their skill is movement analysis combined with knowledge of fundamentals.
*************
You asked how you distorted my post -- perhaps you didn't mean to, but this is language of comparison and dismissal, implying irrelevance:
If I were using such language, I'd be saying the other person's analysis is irrelevant... and most everyone I know would be meaning the same by using that language. You could have meant differently, though.
Last edited:
And a sick picture/video of Troy through that corner.
I was thinking the same thing. I don't think he's been 100% since the Ft. William crash. He mentioned in 3 Minute Gaps that three tendons in his shoulder were snapped in that crash. I don't know much (or really anything) about shoulder injuries, but how do you repair/rehab that injury without surgery to reattach the tendons?
Dude, we're all a bunch of bike nerds just having a discussion. Have some fun with it and chill a little. Unless my perception of the responses you are replying to is way off, I'm interpreting it as the usual banter and typical progression of topics in the midst of conversation. I don't think based tonality anyone is trying to argumentative with you.
After world champs is over, Gwin will allow himself to party for precisely 60 minutes before resuming training in preparation for the 2012 season.
Your perception of my responses is what's way off.
I'm enjoying this too, and am not agitated or in need of "chilling out."
I think the problem is most people here are riders first, writers second, and therefore their writing doesn't convey their thoughts as well as it would for people who are writers first, riders second.
Sam Hill never "drifted most of his turns". If you had been following this sport long enough you'd know he does quite the opposite. There is enough documented proof of this to show he cut corners when he could, and drifted them when he felt it would help (i.e. Dirt, in 08 I believe, has a page with 4 riders making a bermed corner where you can see Hill cuts inside where all others hit the berm. He wins the race). He cornered according to the corner.
Furthermore, your synopsis on comparing alpine gate skiing to DH mtb racing is moot. Anyone with a highschool education in physics understands the differences in terrain negate your proposed view of the ‘perfect corner’ via stainless steel ski edges on hard packed snow vs soft rubber on mixed terrain and dirt. Your point on the attitue however, is bang on.
Edit. A simple example is how corners are taken differently between Tarmac or Gravel in FIA WRC racing.
Last edited:
analyzing the analysis? we need to go deeper
We need to go 5 deep. 5
Go deep.
Especially Sick, considering he is back in a TLD D3 helmet!
What was Warner's line,
_____________(looser/more out of control/more all over the place) than a monkey dry humping a football.
???
_____________(looser/more out of control/more all over the place) than a monkey dry humping a football.
???
The best line was, "He wants this more than an out of work rapist". GOLD!What was Warner's line,
_____________(looser/more out of control/more all over the place) than a monkey dry humping a football.
???