[mandown]

Fist Spez, now Trek?!?! I'm pissed at this. Not that it even matters to me and my current frame/fork combo, or even my future choices, as I am not likely to buy an offering from Specialized or Trek. This whole 1.5 and 1&1/8th combo HT thing just seems like crap.

Rant with me or against me, just rant.

http://nsmb.com/gear/otter_04_08.php

 

[jonKranked]

I actually think its a pretty sweet idea. But then again I've never had problems with my 1-1/8 steerer, so I'll just be sticking with that.

 

[dropmachine]

Its a stupid idea. Good luck replacing your headset when it dies. Go one or the other, not both.

Jerks.

 

[SuspectDevice]

It's actually a great idea. You aren't locked into a tapered steer tube, but the tapered steer tube forks really are lighter and stiffer than a full 1.5 or 1.125. Tons of other positives too. Only negative for me is the fact that I either waste a lot of bar stock spinning the headtube down, or need to find a dumpster full of the forgings that those guys are using somewhere east of Taipei....

 

[MtnbikeMike]

I blame Cannondale

 

[sanjuro]

I blame Cannondale

At least with CDale, you can get the same upper and lower bearings... on their mountain bikes.

 

[ridiculous]

Seriously one or the other, not both. I mean, the concept makes sense, but its the last thing we need. Theres no way that makes it easier for anyone both in manufacturing and end user.

 

[in the trees]

I'm not sure I really like the tapered headtubes. But I do like the idea of tapered steerers.

toby

 

[jonKranked]

It's actually a great idea. You aren't locked into a tapered steer tube, but the tapered steer tube forks really are lighter and stiffer than a full 1.5 or 1.125. Tons of other positives too. Only negative for me is the fact that I either waste a lot of bar stock spinning the headtube down, or need to find a dumpster full of the forgings that those guys are using somewhere east of Taipei....

Mickey I'm glad to see you posting more again.

 

[MtnbikeMike]

At least with CDale, you can get the same upper and lower bearings... on their mountain bikes.

My reference was to the SystemSix

 

[bullcrew]

Rant with me or against me, just rant.

BURN EM! GRAB THE PITCH FORKS AND THE SHOVELS, LETS GET EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bullcrew]

Mickey I'm glad to see you posting more again.

Are you riding?
Let me know, itll be tomorrow am. Good terrain and alot of fun.

 

[mandown]

It's actually a great idea. You aren't locked into a tapered steer tube, but the tapered steer tube forks really are lighter and stiffer than a full 1.5 or 1.125. Tons of other positives too. Only negative for me is the fact that I either waste a lot of bar stock spinning the headtube down, or need to find a dumpster full of the forgings that those guys are using somewhere east of Taipei....

stiffer and lighter? you trying to earn the "suspect" in suspect device?
please explain. I can see how it might be:
1 - Stiffer than full 1.125
2 - LIghter than full 1.5
3 - Lighter and almost as stiff as a full 1.5, but not stiffer.

please explain how this lighter and stiffer than either works. i'm both busting your balls at the seemingly unlikely claim and genuinely curious.

 

[buildyourown]

I think it's great. Innovation for the sake of change is stupid (see the new 15mm hub)
The new headtube is backward compatible. You can buy a frame and you're old fork will fit. Headsets shouldn't be an issue. Worst case, you have to buy 2 and mix and match.
It's lighter than a 1.5 and I'd bet it's almost as stiff. It also makes the higher stresses lower bearings bigger while maintaining the lighter less stressed top bearings.

 

[Motoking16]

Yo mandown!!

Here is my rant for ya!

Some muppet designer that thinks his shat don't stink, and thinks he just re-designed sliced bread.

Why make things difficult?...turd

 

[?????]

I like it. I just wish I could buy the fox 36 without buying the trek remedy.

 

[mandown]

I think it's great. Innovation for the sake of change is stupid (see the new 15mm hub)
The new headtube is backward compatible. You can buy a frame and you're old fork will fit. Headsets shouldn't be an issue. Worst case, you have to buy 2 and mix and match.
It's lighter than a 1.5 and I'd bet it's almost as stiff. It also makes the higher stresses lower bearings bigger while maintaining the lighter less stressed top bearings.

i want numbers. i want the weight savings vs. the fore/aft flex measurements. i postulate there isn't enough benefit to justify the "new" technology and the introdution of one more consideration factor for fork and headset selection. it is backward-compatable, but only with 1.125. peeps w/ 1.5 are screwed. nice since fox and marz just go on board with the 1.5 in 2008.

motoking - i love you.

 

[Bad Ronald]

These bikes are all intended to be sold as a complete package. It is one stop shopping and making things custom helps keep parts "in the family" so people will always need to replace broken stuff with the same stuff. Business wise it makes sense as it limits what can be put on your bike. Functionality wise it makes sense as it allows you to make a "system" that should work perfectly effectively creating a better bike. Consumer wise is not so good as you a restricted to what you can change, however the average Dr or Lawyer type that would buy the majority of your top end bikes would never care that they just replaced their bontrager headset with another bontrager headset.

 

[ridiculous]

Sounds very macish to me. macesque?

 

[amishmatt]

I hate proprietary parts, but I don't really see this being a bigger deal than if it came with a straight 1.5 HT - you can still run your 1.125 fork.

Now, if I actually wanted to buy a Trek, like... ever, I'd be more pissed about the Bontrager crap hanging all over it than the new HT standard.

 

[Bad Ronald]

Yep it's a very "apple" thing to do. But it is nothing new. When your fuel injector breaks on your honda, they replace it with a honda part. They don't put a toyota fuel injector in there. It also helps with Warranty in that it discourages people to from putting a Super Monster or some other ridiculous fork on there which would ultimately cause the frame to fail and possible injure to the rider.

 

[dropmachine]

How the hell is having to buy 2 headsets not a problem?

If you goddam bike is heavy, its not due to the 1.5 headtube. I mean at most, whats it going to add, 1/3 of a pound?

 

[SuspectDevice]

I'm posting more, because I am on hold more!

The stiffness/Weight thing? They are lighter than the full 1.5 equivalent models. They have less front-back deflection than the 1.125 models. People have already seen enhanced headset bearing life V. a full 1.5 setup, and this allows the use of more common 1.125 stems, and most importantly, look a little less silly.

The headtubes themselves allow the designer to optimize in the flex characteristics of the frame, gives more space for the TTmiter, and allow more common smaller diameter TT's to be used without looking funny. And the 1.5 lower cup allows a lot of tuning range as far as stack heights. It's a good idea, and the "compatibility" issues are just about Nil, unless you have a full 1.5 fork at the moment.. Probably why Klein was doing it back in the early 90's...

Nothing lost here really, and the tapered steer tube forks are pretty nifty. I am throwing one of these things on my personal slalom frame, aslong with a 92mm wide bb for direct shimano bearing pressfit. It's the "good" kind of change here, at least in my adderall addled brain.

 

[H8R]

That thing is ghey.

 

[ridiculous]

I really think its just strong where it needs to be and light where it can. I completely forgot about stem compatibility.


Whats the taper half angle? Ill throw it in ANSYS if it gets slow around here. Also how long does it taper for (height) Is it just straight 1.125" after that?

 

[kuksul08]

I think the tapered steerer tube must be stronger since here you can see it implemented on a 250lb motorcycle...

...but I don't understand why one bearing is 1.5 and the other is 1.125, that just makes it too complicated.




Look at the butting on this HT!!

 

[mandown]

I'm posting more, because I am on hold more!

The stiffness/Weight thing? They are lighter than the full 1.5 equivalent models. They have less front-back deflection than the 1.125 models. People have already seen enhanced headset bearing life V. a full 1.5 setup, and this allows the use of more common 1.125 stems, and most importantly, look a little less silly.

The headtubes themselves allow the designer to optimize in the flex characteristics of the frame, gives more space for the TTmiter, and allow more common smaller diameter TT's to be used without looking funny. And the 1.5 lower cup allows a lot of tuning range as far as stack heights. It's a good idea, and the "compatibility" issues are just about Nil, unless you have a full 1.5 fork at the moment.. Probably why Klein was doing it back in the early 90's...

i'm happier w/ this post. your earlier one made it sound like the combo was stiffer and lighter than either all 1.5 or all 1.125. which made me :huh:

as for aesthetics. i kinda see the point, but i'm not convinced the benefit is worth it. lotsa dh bikes are still running dual crowns and many of those peeps are running dircte mount stems, regardless of the HT diameter. now that fox and marz are on the 1.5 tip, it seems you could get a 1.5 single crown and not have to worry about the "silly looking" 1.125 stem on a 1.5 HT.

this whole thing sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Why do people get uporaorious about stuff like this.

1.5, 1.125-1.5, FSA Big BB design, etc and so on..

They're ALL good ideas, innovation is good, staus quo is safe and gross.

I do think the 15mm Front axel thing is goofy and avoidant, but w/e.

 

[leprechaun]

One of the best things about a 1.5 system i used for a while was the huge clamping area of the stem. Never twisted, the headset never came loose. That is lost here.

Everyone wants lighter and stronger, and system integration is eventually going to be the answer though.

 

[mandown]

Why do people get uporaorious about stuff like this.

1.5, 1.125-1.5, FSA Big BB design, etc and so on..

They're ALL good ideas, innovation is good, staus quo is safe and gross.

I do think the 15mm Front axel thing is goofy and avoidant, but w/e.

you are a walking contradiction. i would say the 15mm front is no more goofy than this combo HT design. they both offer questionable benefits in the middle-ground between two existing standards. it is very much splitting hairs to get a marginal benefit. i'm sure by the time the industry adopts both as standards, a new "standard" will come out.

 

[DirtyDog]

How the hell is having to buy 2 headsets not a problem?

If you goddam bike is heavy, its not due to the 1.5 headtube. I mean at most, whats it going to add, 1/3 of a pound?

If big manufacturers start doing this (and they have apparently), I'm sure it won't be difficult to order a HS from someone like King and just specify you need the combo cup sizes.

 

[buildyourown]

you are a walking contradiction. i would say the 15mm front is no more goofy than this combo HT design. they both offer questionable benefits in the middle-ground between two existing standards. it is very much splitting hairs to get a marginal benefit. i'm sure by the time the industry adopts both as standards, a new "standard" will come out.

There is a difference. The 15mm system isn't going to be any lighter than a 20mm. But most importantly, there is no campatiblity with other systems.

 

[SylentK]

From a maintenance perspective, would removing cups and bearings be harder?

 

[jonKranked]

From a maintenance perspective, would removing cups and bearings be harder?

ooooo good call. does park even make a cup remover for a 1.5?

 

[Huck Banzai]

you are a walking contradiction. i would say the 15mm front is no more goofy than this combo HT design. they both offer questionable benefits in the middle-ground between two existing standards. it is very much splitting hairs to get a marginal benefit. i'm sure by the time the industry adopts both as standards, a new "standard" will come out.

The 15mm is splitting hairs, 20mm is a better solution, and the downside is virtually non existent. There is a tangible benefit to 1.5, and a logical progression to the tapered system. While certainly illuminating my opinion, there is nothing contradictory at all.

Why any of this is a problem for anyone worth complaining about is ridiculous. Buy two headsets? No, there will inevitable be paired sets, not an issue. The tapered Headtube? Easy enough to work around. Why options and improvements, marginal as they may be, are a problem for people is curious.

 

[CRoss]

ooooo good call. does park even make a cup remover for a 1.5?

Just take a standard cup remover and flare the tines out more.

 

[Huck Banzai]

There is a difference. The 15mm system isn't going to be any lighter than a 20mm. But most importantly, there is no campatiblity with other systems.

Rep-ity rep! Eloquent errr.. somethin!!

 

[Dogboy]

ooooo good call. does park even make a cup remover for a 1.5?

You can do as CRoss suggested or Park does make a 1 1/8-1.5 cup removal tool.

 

[jonKranked]

You can do as CRoss suggested or Park does make a 1 1/8-1.5 cup removal tool.

fo shiz.

 

[kidwoo]

This greatly affects my life and I won't be sleeping well for the rest of the summer