[rosenamedpoop]

I've been thinking about the adjustable head angle inserts that Commencal, Corsair (others?) are using. Why not make simple machined reducer inserts from 1.5" to 1 1/8", but machine in the appropriate angle to allow for plus or minus 1, even 2 degrees in head angle. These could be used on any 1.5" frame.

Is this already being made?

 

[skinny mike]

pressing those in while keeping everything lined up correctly would be damn near impossible.

 

[Udi]

Alignment would be an issue, as even slight misalignment would mess with the fork angle and fry your headset bearings.

I'm sure there'd be a way to make it work (some rods you could cut down + holes to align top and bottom cup, or something along those lines) but don't really see the need personally.

 

[binary visions]

On top of the huge bearing problems you could cause, the amount of adjustment you'd get would vary drastically with the length of the head tube.

 

[davep]

The thing with the frames that have this built is, is the pinch clamp. I am not sure if the ones on the comencal et al are a one piece sleeve or not. It would be easier if they are..either way, the pinch bolt allows you to easily turn and align the insert(s) to the straight line of the frame

On a standard frame, you would have to use two inserts on etop and one bottom.
Problem would be aligning them while pressing them into the frame. If one or both cups were off just a little bit, you would go through headset bearings, and your fork might point off to one side. Also to change the angle, you would need to pound the cups out and replace

 

[rosenamedpoop]

On top of the huge bearing problems you could cause, the amount of adjustment you'd get would vary drastically with the length of the head tube.

I wouldn't trip too much about bearings, but that's a very good point about head tube length.

 

[AtTheGates]

I was actually brainstoriming this last week. the cups themselves could have interlocking splines so they would align when they were pressed in.
The biggest problem would be aligning the cups with the frame. If you could find a reference point on the frame and some splines on the cup/reducer you might be able make a guide to press them in straight. I think it would be hard to produce a guide worked on a lot of frames w/o costing more to make than the actual part.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

I was actually brainstoriming this last week. the cups themselves could have interlocking splines so they would align when they were pressed in.
The biggest problem would be aligning the cups with the frame. If you could find a reference point on the frame and some splines on the cup/reducer you might be able make a guide to press them in straight. I think it would be hard to produce a guide worked on a lot of frames w/o costing more to make than the actual part.

Splines sound like a good idea. I'm stumped at the moment by the issue of differing headtube lengths.

 

[DavidMakalaster]

Splines sound like a good idea. I'm stumped at the moment by the issue of differing headtube lengths.

Simple. Create another arbitrary standard that most of the industry won't follow. Don't you think it's better to just learn how to ride your bike than mess with crap like that constantly based on theories of what might work in a given situation?

 

[Cave Dweller]

I thought about doing this a few years ago and couldn't come up with a good solution to fit existing frames. Alignment is the major issue, and trying to align the top and bottom cups with each other and aligning the fork so its straight while press fitting top and bottom cups is just too much hassle.

 

[AtTheGates]

Splines sound like a good idea. I'm stumped at the moment by the issue of differing headtube lengths.

you would have to make different parts for differnt headtube lengths. you can't lengthen one side of a triangle and not the others and keep the same angles. I was only considering doing a one off thing, so that really wasn't an issue. I suppose there is a way to accomidate different head tubes, but it will further complicate the issue of aligning the bearings.

 

[Udi]

Even if you made it headtube length-specific, something as simple as facing the headtube would cause alignment issues... would be enough to accelerate bearing wear anyway.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Simple. Create another arbitrary standard that most of the industry won't follow. Don't you think it's better to just learn how to ride your bike than mess with crap like that constantly based on theories of what might work in a given situation?

I know how to ride my bike pal. I also know what angles I like. Basically bike companies don't make trail bikes with slack enough head tube angles.

 

[DavidMakalaster]

I know how to ride my bike pal. I also know what angles I like. Basically bike companies don't make trail bikes with slack enough head tube angles.

My bad. That's not what I meant to imply.

 

[DirtyMike]

I like the idea, makes a bike more tunable to the rider's styles/abilities. The problem like most have said is not making something that would work, or making something that wouldbe usable between different bikes, or even Steertube lengths, it would come down to aligning it to the bikes. Really i do like the idea, just doesnt seem very feasable in the longrun.


My idea though, since we are talking about how this could work, would be something that would be splined together top and bottom, for headset alignment issues, something that pressed in relativley flush to the Head tube, was Faceable post instalation, Is marked so that through basic geometry and brains can be centered to the frame, and instead of HT specefic, make it Cutable, something with a big overlap so that you could cut some out on each side as needed and then clean up the end of the splines with a small file, Also, somehting that post install, you could use whicheverHeadset you so desired. If i were to take a guess on what something like this would cost, i would say 600 plus easy, more like 900 for quality that is still lite.

 

[DavidMakalaster]

As much skepticism as I had at first I think I came up with a simple way to make this work. Three pieces for each cup (before bearings, cones, etc.) One is a thin sleeve that protects the headtube. Two: a "socket" that rotates in the sleeve freely and handles most of the offset. Three: a ball shaped piece that also rotates freely inside the socket every direction and handles most of the offset. The idea is kinda like a dome washer setup like on an avid caliper. Then mount an integrated headset inside that. The setup wouldn't have to be aligned till you tighten the headset. When you tighten the headset it would set the offset and align the balls with the frame. The steerer would keep the two balls aligned with each other.

Let me know if you're following me.

 

[meca06]

Hello,

i do this for my Uzzi, and now for my Socom. To the Uzzi, i do it with -1.5° head angle and for the Socom with -1°.
With -1° the wheelbase come to +15mm at front. With -1.5° it's +22mm. With 570mm fork.
i ride this for 1 year, i do it for other riders ( 6 pair for yeti ASX, 3 pair for Uzzi, 1 pair for new Nomad and probably 1 pair for 2point3 ) and there is no problem.
The headset i put in is same as cane creek IS2.
If you have any question, say it more simply, my translate is a little bad oster_oops:

Bye.

 

[AtTheGates]

As much skepticism as I had at first I think I came up with a simple way to make this work. Three pieces for each cup (before bearings, cones, etc.) One is a thin sleeve that protects the headtube. Two: a "socket" that rotates in the sleeve freely and handles most of the offset. Three: a ball shaped piece that also rotates freely inside the socket every direction and handles most of the offset. The idea is kinda like a dome washer setup like on an avid caliper. Then mount an integrated headset inside that. The setup wouldn't have to be aligned till you tighten the headset. When you tighten the headset it would set the offset and align the balls with the frame. The steerer would keep the two balls aligned with each other.

Let me know if you're following me.

I still think you will have trouble aligning every thing so that your new head angle doesn't deviate from the plane bisecting the bike. with the avid cps set up you have two posts so you only change the angle in one plane. to make it work you'd have to limit movement from side to side. then you would be back to square one, trying to align the parts so that the head tube stays in its original plane. Plus you are relying on the normal force and friction between the ball and sockets to keep the steertube from moving back and forth.

I'd like to see more of the part pictured above and how it was installed.

 

[DavidMakalaster]

It would be pretty simple to make a tool to align the frame and fork.

 

[DirtyMike]

Hello,

i do this for my Uzzi, and now for my Socom. To the Uzzi, i do it with -1.5° head angle and for the Socom with -1°.
With -1° the wheelbase come to +15mm at front. With -1.5° it's +22mm. With 570mm fork.
i ride this for 1 year, i do it for other riders ( 6 pair for yeti ASX, 3 pair for Uzzi, 1 pair for new Nomad and probably 1 pair for 2point3 ) and there is no problem.
The headset i put in is same as cane creek IS2.
If you have any question, say it more simply, my translate is a little bad oster_oops:

Bye.

Seriously, if your doing this for other riders, Get that Sh%t patented NOW. Stop setting up others peoples bikes untill You have something declaring it your design before someone takes it as there own. I would love to know how your doing this, I like Mechanical design, would love to see some pics and step by step setup, but at the same time, keep the Tech to yourself, and try to make some money with this

 

[DirtyMike]

It would be pretty simple to make a tool to align the frame and fork.

Who needs a tool, as long as the sleeve/insert whatever, just needs to be marked with a reference to what would be straight for fork alignment. then its just geometry and adding a mark on the bike

 

[Tootrikky]

It would be pretty simple to make a tool to align the frame and fork.

I've discussed this before.....machining the cups would be fairly easy, but I couldn't figure how one would time eccentric 1.5 reducer cups when installing. Real tricky with the press fit and a conventional headset press.

Looks like meca 06 figured it out though, too bad I no longer have any 1.5 frames.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Hello,

i do this for my Uzzi, and now for my Socom. To the Uzzi, i do it with -1.5° head angle and for the Socom with -1°.
With -1° the wheelbase come to +15mm at front. With -1.5° it's +22mm. With 570mm fork.
i ride this for 1 year, i do it for other riders ( 6 pair for yeti ASX, 3 pair for Uzzi, 1 pair for new Nomad and probably 1 pair for 2point3 ) and there is no problem.
The headset i put in is same as cane creek IS2.
If you have any question, say it more simply, my translate is a little bad oster_oops:

Bye.

Sweet meca! I figured somebody had done this. You know thinking about it now, it would be nice but it doesn't have to be universal between bikes. Brake therapy applies the same basic idea in many different variations to fit individual frames. Why not these?

Would you make more of these to sell meca? How much man?

 

[AtTheGates]

It would be pretty simple to make a tool to align the frame and fork.

What would you reference from on the frame that would work consistantly with a variety of frames?

 

[Tootrikky]

Who needs a tool, as long as the sleeve/insert whatever, just needs to be marked with a reference to what would be straight for fork alignment. then its just geometry and adding a mark on the bike

I think Rosenamedpoop is looking for something that requires no frame mods which most likely is going to be an E13 1.5 Reducer cup that uses integrated heaset bearings that are eccentric and angled. Looks like this is what meca06 is most likely using. A sleeve wouldn't work on most existing 1.5 bikes because most 1.5 headtube ID's are smaller in the middle. Aligning/timing two seperate pressed in cups app 5" apart perfectly would be a challenge. Bad alignment would result in bearing failure, etc.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

^Uhh...meca said his has lasted a year so far. If I keep a bike for a whole year I'm doing well. Why is everybody tripping about headset bearings? Who cares if they don't last quite as long? Proper angles are well worth the sacrifice.

 

[Tootrikky]

^Uhh...meca said his has lasted a year so far. If I keep a bike for a whole year I'm doing well. Why is everybody tripping about headset bearings? Who cares if they don't last quite as long? Proper angles are well worth the sacrifice.

Not trying to be a naysayer it's surely do able. You've ridden bikes with poorly adjusted headsets....too tight, sloppy, or notchy. I would be afraid of that, is all.

 

[meca06]

Seriously, if your doing this for other riders, Get that Sh%t patented NOW. Stop setting up others peoples bikes untill You have something declaring it your design before someone takes it as there own. I would love to know how your doing this, I like Mechanical design, would love to see some pics and step by step setup, but at the same time, keep the Tech to yourself, and try to make some money with this

bah, it's simply a mechanical design, anyone technical drawer can do it.
If you want to patented, do it, i send you the drawing. i take just a little x% on sales. if you want i do too Intense dropouts to do 345mm BB height on Socom / Uzzi with -1° head angle, it's better right this.
My headset is a poor Taiwan copy of a cane creek IS2. 30 USD
one year and no problem. What's the program next year ?
9 DH races and so many trainings, 6 races this years + worlds master in Pra-loup, and long rides in other DH tracks in French alps.
The cups a machined with a stroke to align it in the frame before press it.
to do this cups, i need how long head-tube measurement.
The adjustement is the same as all headset 1"5.
and the internal adjustement is the same as all internal 1"1/8e same cane creek is2 standard.

 

[dw]

I built these several years ago to test different angles on Sundays. As others pointed out you need to make sure that you design for an exact head tube length, make sure the HT is faced, and make sure that you can key the headsets together somehow so that the steering axes are lined up. I did this by building a couple keyed adapters that aligned with a park headset tool and the headsets. All in all it was pretty much a pain to work with but an effective solution to meet the goals that I needed.

Dave

 

[AtTheGates]

I built these several years ago to test different angles on Sundays. As others pointed out you need to make sure that you design for an exact head tube length, make sure the HT is faced, and make sure that you can key the headsets together somehow so that the steering axes are lined up. I did this by building a couple keyed adapters that aligned with a park headset tool and the headsets. All in all it was pretty much a pain to work with but an effective solution to meet the goals that I needed.

Dave

got one that would work for an '05 large 7point?

 

[Threepointtwo]

I saw Meca's set up at Pra Loup. Pretty slick. I have ordered a set for my ride.

 

[dw]

got one that would work for an '05 large 7point?

Nope, they only worked for the 127mm head tubes on the Sundays. There were only 5 or 6 sets made total.

Dave

 

[rosenamedpoop]

I saw Meca's set up at Pra Loup. Pretty slick. I have ordered a set for my ride.

So meca is making them to sell? How much man?

 

[El_Chimichanga]

I still say there are easier options, like, getting a custom make Ventana. Dude, you know that ould cost just as much as a Nomad and would work just as well.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

I still say there are easier options, like, getting a custom make Ventana. Dude, you know that ould cost just as much as a Nomad and would work just as well.

Preacher, you are speaking to the quire. Man I know there are other options! I want to know everything!

Like we were talking about yesterday, I want a VPP or a DW link bike with 6" to 7" of travel and true DH geo. No compromising. I'm not after another Horst link or single pivot right now, so that narrows things down.

 

[DavidMakalaster]

You could always buy one of Hill's used mini Sundays.

 

[El_Chimichanga]

I think you should have another look at the Socom or Intense 6.6 SS. The Geo for the SS is allllllllmost exactly what you want.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

^Socom is all off man 66.5 deg HA, BB too tall, too much travel, seat angle laid back.

Can't find geo on the 6.6ss, link?

 

[El_Chimichanga]

 

[rosenamedpoop]

^That looks sick! My only worry is the 17" seat tube.