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Aerobic Base Training - Waste of time for DH/ 4X?

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
And aerobics for fat loss is a farce anyways...it makes you into a smaller, more efficient fat burning machine (meaning you burn fewer fat calories for the same effort), making it harder to sustain fat loss. Anaerobic work kicks aerobics butt when it comes to fat loss, but that's another subject entirely.
Wow...just...wow.

You probably "advocate" the Atkins Diet, too.
 

JeffD

Monkey
Mar 23, 2002
990
0
Macon, GA
Wow...just...wow.

You probably "advocate" the Atkins Diet, too.
Modern sports science is pretty much in agreement that steady state aerobics are far inferior to higher intensity anaerobic exercise for affecting body comp. James isn't pulling that out of his ass.

That said, it's pretty much common knowledge in bodybuilding/powerlifting circles that you can achieve far more fat loss through diet than by trying to exercise fat off. Problem is, most other sports - cycling included - still fall prey to the high carb/low fat/aerobic exercise for weight loss paradigm.
 

ElTORO

Monkey
Jun 27, 2006
369
0
With all the other Tards!!
Why exactly does he have to STFU? Because he doesn't agree with the advice being given?
The smart ass comment about "You probably "advocate" the Atkins Diet, too." Kind of got to me.

I don't care about anybody disagreeing with anything. But why don't you back up your facts with evidence. All this talk and you can’t back up anything. And then you talk $hit about wow this guy has no clue.

And no I wish it was free, I pay what every other client pays.

The bad thing about James coming to fourms and giving out Training information. Is EVERYONE on these fourms think they are an Expert in everthing MTB. And just can't take it that someone who is a true expert might just know a little more. (+ 1 more month)
 

Threepointtwo

Monkey
Jun 21, 2002
632
0
SLC, UT
I don't know much but I sure like the idea of not putting in countless boring hours on a road bike. It's kind of like when I found an article that said stretching didn't reduce injury - I don't like stretching either.
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
How many DH racers do you know that truely put in signifigant hours of aerobic training? Not many.
I think many people are unclear on what genuine aerobic excercise is. For a reasonably fit rider, it would be a 30+min road ride at 140-150 heartrate. That's pretty low.
Trailriding is about as close to doing intervals as you can get and still have fun. If you ride your trail bike like a DH bike (the way most of use do), then your rides are short anaerobic sprints followed by resting periods. Sounds like an interval to me. Remember, to be aerobic, you need to keep your HR low. This is hard when you're having fun on a mountain bike. Also, once you go anaerobic, you can't go back.

What james is saying is that the preseason boredom of pounding out the road miles with a HR monitor is not required.
That's fine by me. I'll stick to riding and building trails.
 

Metal Dude

Turbo Monkey
Apr 7, 2006
1,139
0
Smackdonough, GA
Hi James I am not here to bash your ideas,
I would like to get more on what to do!
O.K. I buy aerobic no goood,
i am a pro mtx-slalom racer 37 yrs. old
rode bmx 10 yrs. in the 80's quit for 5
then have raced MTB for 12 - 10 of which Dh/MTX/DS
Doesnt that count for base? just yrs. on the bike?
Although, my best season 2003 I did tons of base
although 90% on the trail on xc bike which requires
a little more effort than the road, and more intervals.
I won the overall Semi-Pro National Championship that
season. I did the whole program though, lots of gym
related core stuff power lifting, Plyometrics all in a progressive manner.
Dialed it in for race season with BMX racing, Sprinting
a couple times a week and a recovery ride or two during
a weeks period. At the time I felt the base was a key factor
in a win I took at WV. I saw half the pro field sitting down
on their seats on the final straight of a course that had alot
of pedaling and a climb on it. I was standing full strength
and grabbing extra gears! I thought it was the base I put
in like the other guys were pointing out that through all
the practice runs etc. that had held me strong!
The yrs. since then I have done all my aerobic base on the
road and haven't made quite as much committment in the Gym
there are slight differences in my performance (to the -)
still managed to pick up top 10 in the 05 Pro Nat. Championship
But I feel my victories have come through skill not speed.
Not asking for specifics as I know mostly what I should be doing
but are you saying anaerobic intervals and weight lifting is
what I should be doing in my "base season Traning"?
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Modern sports science is pretty much in agreement that steady state aerobics are far inferior to higher intensity anaerobic exercise for affecting body comp. James isn't pulling that out of his ass.
Interesting...I tried googling it but I'm always coming up with straight crap. I've always been taught reduced caloric consumption+continued aerobic exercise=fat loss. Do you have any links to point me in the correct direction?

James, you're straight up spamming and attempting to direct traffic to your site/training programs. You post the EXACT same topics on MTBr as well...Perhaps a different approach would be more appropriate if you're concerned with gracing us with your most holy presence?
 

JeffD

Monkey
Mar 23, 2002
990
0
Macon, GA
Damn Chuck, how did you train for all that keystroke endurance. I'd have needed a recovery drink by about the fifth sentence!

You coming to Albany this weekend?
 

JeffD

Monkey
Mar 23, 2002
990
0
Macon, GA
Interesting...I tried googling it but I'm always coming up with straight crap. I've always been taught reduced caloric consumption+continued aerobic exercise=fat loss. Do you have any links to point me in the correct direction?
Here's a good two part series:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461325
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461524

Keep in mind the authors (who are big name strength/conditioning coaches, not random trolls) are discussing aerobics STRICTLY in the context of fat loss and NOT sports training, per se.

Edit - yes, reduced cals and low intensity aerobic exercise can help you shed fat, BUT at the possible expense of lost muscle mass and/or reduced speed and power output. Classic real world example: distance runner physiques = droopy and soft (relative to their activity level, at least) whereas sprinters' physiques = buff/hard, despite doing little-to-no aerobic exercise.
 

Metal Dude

Turbo Monkey
Apr 7, 2006
1,139
0
Smackdonough, GA
I don't train for that it comes natural!
or lack there of expressing myself w/o
doing it in paragraph form - ha ha
I draw pictures to relate my point best!
When is Albany?
I am out of shape, took a couple wks. off, I know prob. not good
but I have some past injuries that I am trying
to rehabilitate, had some mri done on my spine
but looking to get back at it soon just scoping
this kinda stuff to get a new game plan
I let Peter beat me at the last race so I gotta
get some POWER back in my legs
Good luck in Albany kick some arss
 

JeffD

Monkey
Mar 23, 2002
990
0
Macon, GA
Albany is this weekend. I'm slow and weak as well from all the DH riding this summer (and got roughed up a little this past weekend at Windrock). It's just straight pro open so I'll likely get my ass kicked by Barry and some teenagers but that's OK - it'll be the perfect kick in the ass to get ready for 07.

Good luck with the injuries. I'm sure I'll see you around.
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
Ok, let me start off by saying this is going to be a rant.

Also to EITORO, to say that James is the only expert on here is a mistake.

First on the anaerobic vs. aerobic for weight loss, it’s not that simple. The same period of time anaerobic will burn more Cal than aerobic training, however most people are not able to keep the intensity log enough, and they stop. With the aerobic they are able to go on longer and thus in most cases end up burning more Cal for the workout.

On to the topic of this post. While bits and pieces or what James says are true, the whole picture he is presenting is false. To say 4x and DH are the same physically is like saying running a 400 and the mile are the same. I can’t think of anyone that can pin it 100% the whole way down on a DH course; you can on a 4x course. Most technique coaches, EC included will tell you not to pin it from the start.

First in reality there is never such a thing as aerobic and anaerobic when dealing with a human, even when you are flat out, your body is still sucking in all the oxygen it can and using it, and inverse even when you are sleeping your still using anaerobic pathways and producing lactate.

Let’s look at what aerobic work does for you. First most people will say there are two types of aerobic training LSD (long slow distance), and contrary to what people thing long intervals the 2-5 min type.

What does LSD get you? Increase the number of capillaries perfusing the muscle fibers, increase red blood cell and hemoglobin concentration and total blood volume, increase mitochondrial density in muscle, increase the ability of muscles to extract oxygen from the blood, and enhance the ability of the muscles to store more carbohydrate.

What do Long Intervals get you? An increase the maximal amount of oxygen the muscles can consume per minute. How’s that happen? Increase the size of the heart's left ventricle, venous return(blood coming back into the heart) stroke volume (Amount of blood pumped per beat), cardiac output(amount of blood pumped in a min, basically stroke volume times the number of beats.), and contractility (How hard the heart can squash the blood out).

This is all important stuff to have built up. That being said it is possible to improve aerobic fitness by training with and anaerobic program, however it’s been shown the training is much more effect on both sides if it’s done on an aerobic base.

It has been shown that endurance training with strength training is going to lean in favor of the endurance; you are going to get weaker and gain more endurance, how ever I don’t know of too many programs that have your heavy strength program on top of the base endurance phase.

Let me say this, I think for most DH’ers any training will help, as most rec racers don’t really train much at all, in fact in know quite a few who don’t at all other than practice and race runs. So my point is, stick with the base in
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
Here's a good two part series:


Edit - yes, reduced cals and low intensity aerobic exercise can help you shed fat, BUT at the possible expense of lost muscle mass and/or reduced speed and power output. Classic real world example: distance runner physiques = droopy and soft (relative to their activity level, at least) whereas sprinters' physiques = buff/hard, despite doing little-to-no aerobic exercise.
Droopy and soft, have you ever seen an elite level distance runner in person?

The other thing is Fast twitch typed fibers can enlarge as much as two times the size of a slow twitch given the same stressing, so the distance guys would be much smaller even on the exact same program.
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
James, you're straight up spamming and attempting to direct traffic to your site/training programs. You post the EXACT same topics on MTBr as well...Perhaps a different approach would be more appropriate if you're concerned with gracing us with your most holy presence?
I'm starting to think the same thing....D
 

benno

Monkey
Apr 7, 2006
201
0
Ask the Ausssies if they even own road bikes.
It's hilarious to see the amount of XC and road bikes owned by elite Aussie DHers appearing on the second hand market with descriptions like 'only ridden twice'.
 

JeffD

Monkey
Mar 23, 2002
990
0
Macon, GA
Droopy and soft, have you ever seen an elite level distance runner in person?

The other thing is Fast twitch typed fibers can enlarge as much as two times the size of a slow twitch given the same stressing, so the distance guys would be much smaller even on the exact same program.
I wasn't referring to muscle mass, just bodyfat. And as a broad generalization, distance runners do carry higher levels of bodyfat, despite burning countless times the amount of energy sprinters do in the course of their training. You can just judge the value of one type of exercise vs. the other for body comp effects by how long you cna perform them before sputtering out - sprinting elicits hormonal responses that keep metabolic rate jacked for hours after exercise, low intensity aerobics don't.

Regardless, not trying to start a pissing contest. Five years from now, science will prove both of us wrong. And yeah, for most casual DHers, ANY training would be of some benefit.

:cheers:
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
I wasn't referring to muscle mass, just bodyfat. And as a broad generalization, distance runners do carry higher levels of bodyfat, despite burning countless times the amount of energy sprinters do in the course of their training. You can just judge the value of one type of exercise vs. the other for body comp effects by how long you cna perform them before sputtering out - sprinting elicits hormonal responses that keep metabolic rate jacked for hours after exercise, low intensity aerobics don't.

Regardless, not trying to start a pissing contest. Five years from now, science will prove both of us wrong. And yeah, for most casual DHers, ANY training would be of some benefit.

:cheers:
I was on scholarship for 4 years as a sprinter, including 2 appeances at National Championships. (200m, 4x200, medley). Sprinters do a HELL of a lot of aerobic work. Ie: laps and laps and laps of medium speed and slow speed jogs. I'm talking 5km at a time, in 15-16 minutes. That's aerobic.

Anyways for most users on this forum, and in the DH scene in general, aerobic training is going to help them at this point more than anaerobic. EC, Lopes etc are a different case from 99.9% of riders.
 

JeffD

Monkey
Mar 23, 2002
990
0
Macon, GA
Sure, I didn't say sprinters don't do ANY aerobic work, but you weren't running marathons either. I'm sure the bulk of your training was sprinting and resistance work.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Here's a good two part series:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461325
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461524

Keep in mind the authors (who are big name strength/conditioning coaches, not random trolls) are discussing aerobics STRICTLY in the context of fat loss and NOT sports training, per se.

Edit - yes, reduced cals and low intensity aerobic exercise can help you shed fat, BUT at the possible expense of lost muscle mass and/or reduced speed and power output. Classic real world example: distance runner physiques = droopy and soft (relative to their activity level, at least) whereas sprinters' physiques = buff/hard, despite doing little-to-no aerobic exercise.
You have to be careful about weight loss advice when it comes to athletes and non-athletes. Some fatty who gets off the couch for the first time and starts doing Wind Sprints will probably have a heart attack.

I can't say what works best for trained athletes, but certainly cutting calories has to be critical.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Probably running a marathon over a week's period, but ya, certainly not at once that is for sure. It was probably 75/25 split between sprint specific stuff and aerobic base.

A 200m is about as far as a human can go at 100% - even then it's a bit much at around 20 seconds (19.32 if you are a complete freak).
 

JeffD

Monkey
Mar 23, 2002
990
0
Macon, GA
You have to be careful about weight loss advice when it comes to athletes and non-athletes. Some fatty who gets off the couch for the first time and starts doing Wind Sprints will probably have a heart attack.

I can't say what works best for trained athletes, but certainly cutting calories has to be critical.
My disclaimer about the articles not being about sports trianing didn't mean I had couch potatoes in mind - I meant that the articles are discussing aerobic exercise solely in the contest of bodyfat loss and not for training for any type of athletic ends since we were getting off on the tangent of aerobics and diet for fat loss and not DH-specific training.
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
I wasn't referring to muscle mass, just bodyfat. And as a broad generalization, distance runners do carry higher levels of bodyfat, despite burning countless times the amount of energy sprinters do in the course of their training. You can just judge the value of one type of exercise vs. the other for body comp effects by how long you cna perform them before sputtering out - sprinting elicits hormonal responses that keep metabolic rate jacked for hours after exercise, low intensity aerobics don't.

Regardless, not trying to start a pissing contest. Five years from now, science will prove both of us wrong. And yeah, for most casual DHers, ANY training would be of some benefit.

:cheers:
Actually the data shows they are in the same ball park as sprinters body fat % wise, they are just smaller in general.

Actually there is data showing Basal Metabolic rate can be jacked up, up to 48 hours post evercise.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Anyways for most users on this forum, and in the DH scene in general, aerobic training is going to help them at this point more than anaerobic. EC, Lopes etc are a different case from 99.9% of riders.
I agree; that's more what I was getting at in my earlier posts. Actually, I bet 99% of riders could get the biggest improvement from letting off the brakes a bit and not crashing.


Yes, DH racing is a 4 minute max effort. Nobody ever podiumed for having a bunch of great pactice runs. That 4 minutes is all that matters and anything that will get in the way of your absolutely best effort for those 4 minutes should be reevaluated.

Anyways, increased anaerobic endurance will help you maintain a more consistent effort. Maybe there is a reason that you only do a few full speed runs with a bunch of moderate ones - you probably don't have the anaerobic endurance to maintain more full efforts. More practice runs near race pace can't help but make you faster for those 4 minutes.
Okay, I'm not an expert....but have you ever raced downhill before? No, nobody ever podiumed from practice, but lots of people have a tendency to wear themselves out too much in practice. "Racing" is longer than 4 minutes.

And I am not a world class athlete, but my problem is not just that I don't have the anaerobic endurance to do a bunch of fast runs. I like to know the course well and try different lines, but I am not helped by looking at the trail or talking about it- I have to ride it a bunch of times to see what works. I don't ride full speed in practice every time because I don't want to die. Pinning it the whole time would probably kill me just because of the law of averages.
 

Metal Dude

Turbo Monkey
Apr 7, 2006
1,139
0
Smackdonough, GA
Some guys definately need more practice if you can't clean a section
resting up for it isn't going to make you get through it faster.
There are alot of elements into being a fast DH or MTX racer,
you have to bring em all together to be successful.
This topic is just based on the fitness end of it and specifically
the beginning of training to set you up for all the other work,
if it all comes together you shouldn't need to practice all day
to dial it in if you've got the skills time in. I think
the point here is where to spend the intial building stages
to be in good shape for specifically what we do.
 

skinny mike

Turbo Monkey
Jan 24, 2005
6,415
0
disregarding aerobic training is just asinine imo. yes, the pros on the podiums at world cups may be focusing primarily on anerobic training, but they are also on their bikes much more often than most riders. riding all of the time is what keeps their aerobic level up.
The smart ass comment about "You probably "advocate" the Atkins Diet, too." Kind of got to me.

I don't care about anybody disagreeing with anything. But why don't you back up your facts with evidence. All this talk and you can’t back up anything. And then you talk $hit about wow this guy has no clue.

And no I wish it was free, I pay what every other client pays.

The bad thing about James coming to fourms and giving out Training information. Is EVERYONE on these fourms think they are an Expert in everthing MTB. And just can't take it that someone who is a true expert might just know a little more. (+ 1 more month)
is nut polishing included in the training program?

you haven't contributed anything to this thread other than replies to people questioning james and telling them that they are wrong. please come back when you have some of your own ideas to add to the thread.
 

doc gravity

Monkey
Oct 25, 2004
152
0
highlands ranch, CO
Probably running a marathon over a week's period, but ya, certainly not at once that is for sure. It was probably 75/25 split between sprint specific stuff and aerobic base.).
When you look at the length of the race season, and what is really a relatively limited amount of time to prepare to prepare for the next season, any aerobic phase would occupy a relatively small percentage of your total training volume. For some individuals it also serves just to keep them on the bike for the first period after their last race (which we could assume was the peak effort of their last training year). I don't think anyone would argue that the majority of DH/4X training falls under intervals and sprints. And in James defence he gave a fairly strict definition of what he considered aerobic work. I'd be curious how many people just go out and grind out absolutely flat mileage for their base period. More than likely it's a mix of smaller hill climbs and descents, so the average heart rate might be low but it still represents sub-maximal interval work, as opposed to pure aerobic work. Scott
 

trust4130

Monkey
Aug 16, 2005
203
0
Pennsylvania
JeffD: Got Pull? What are your thoughts on what the top bmx pros are doing as far as training? I have an idea what it entails, and some is likely to have been covered here in some shape or form, but there may be other ideas as well. (I guess should have spent more time at South Park when Bittner and Warlock were living there...)
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
When you look at the length of the race season, and what is really a relatively limited amount of time to prepare to prepare for the next season, any aerobic phase would occupy a relatively small percentage of your total training volume. For some individuals it also serves just to keep them on the bike for the first period after their last race (which we could assume was the peak effort of their last training year). I don't think anyone would argue that the majority of DH/4X training falls under intervals and sprints. And in James defence he gave a fairly strict definition of what he considered aerobic work. I'd be curious how many people just go out and grind out absolutely flat mileage for their base period. More than likely it's a mix of smaller hill climbs and descents, so the average heart rate might be low but it still represents sub-maximal interval work, as opposed to pure aerobic work. Scott
A short time period? Race season usually ends end of Sept/Beg of Oct. Then season doesn't really start until Sea Otter in April for some people, and most early may. That's a minimum of 7 months. That's a pretty damn long time.
 

Metal Dude

Turbo Monkey
Apr 7, 2006
1,139
0
Smackdonough, GA
Yeah that was one my points earlier in my extensive rant.
Is putting in base on a trail xc riding better
for those same reasons?
you may be going easy but you have
to do some interval and higher hr work
due to the terrain more so off road than on.
 

bikejames

Chimp
Oct 13, 2006
90
0
Two things make it extremely difficult for me to respond to most of the challenges made to my assertions. First, I do not subscribe to linear periodization. Alternating and undulating periodization are much more effective, both in the lab and the real world. This makes it difficult to respond to challenges based on linear periodization. I simply do not buy into the notion that you should train in distinct blocks, focusing on one thing at a time. This is an inefficient model at best.

Second, there is a difference between what you can do and what is optimal. In high school we ate like crap, got no sleep, partied like crazy and still managed to be pretty good athletes, however no one would argue that is a good strategy for training. Sometimes top level athletes succeed despite their training programs, not because of it. This means that just because someone had success that it is the absolute best way, and the best way is the only one that concerns me and my athletes.
 

BC VAN

Monkey
May 4, 2005
624
0
I was on scholarship for 4 years as a sprinter, including 2 appeances at National Championships. (200m, 4x200, medley). Sprinters do a HELL of a lot of aerobic work. Ie: laps and laps and laps of medium speed and slow speed jogs. I'm talking 5km at a time, in 15-16 minutes. That's aerobic.

Anyways for most users on this forum, and in the DH scene in general, aerobic training is going to help them at this point more than anaerobic. EC, Lopes etc are a different case from 99.9% of riders.
Actually Lopes and I spend a fair bit of time on a road bike….not as much as the past as the sport has evolved, but I consider it a foundation of my training.

This was a Quote from James and my last post to the "leg press is bad thread" and I believe the reason that James has started this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikejames
3-8 reps is all I usually prescribe. Remember, we want to build strength and power with our workouts and anything over 8 reps (6 reps, really) is not truly working on these qualities. We get plenty of endurance work on our bikes and should spend gym time working on the physical qualities we need that we can not effectively target on the bike.

As for road riding for DH fitness, I don't really think that it is the best way. Take a rider who does no other conditioning and have them add some road riding in and they will notice some results in their endurance, but it is far from the best way to build DH specific stamina. You said yourself that runs last from 3-5 minutes so building the ability to cruise on a road bike at less than race pace does little to really help you. You need to work on anaerobic strength and power endurance, not aerobic endurance, and a properly designed strength and conditioning program will do that much better than road riding.

I do recommend easy road riding as a form of active recovery, but that is not what I think you were referring to though...


James, so your suggesting that a 6 week block of good base miles on a road bike before you get into your strength and conditioning program would do no good? That surprises me.
I ask because the years I have started my training season out with a nice fitness base of road miles (not cruising, but not sprinting either) I seem to carry more fitness longer through the season, be able to work harder through all of my strength and conditioning work and not get as mentally burned out.
When I just start to do sport specific exercises and movements at high intensity with out the base time put in I find that the quality and quantity of my work is less.
I also use a lot of swimming in the pre season...although not a very sport specific exercise I feel that when I slack on the time in the water the harder high intensity efforts that are sport specific are much more difficult.
I agree with you that the road bike is no substitute for the rigors of doing dh runs, but I think it can be one of many valuable "TOOLS", for hard efforts, as well as active recovery rides
I do lots of intervals on my road bike as well as my dh and 4x bikes at different portions of my training season,
crits can give you unbelievable gains in the ability to do repeated efforts while maxed out (as long as you don't sit in the whole ride), the only week link of this is the lack of upper body effort.
This can be addressed by riding more upper body strength demanding dh runs.
 

bikejames

Chimp
Oct 13, 2006
90
0
Ok, let me start off by saying this is going to be a rant.

Also to EITORO, to say that James is the only expert on here is a mistake.

First on the anaerobic vs. aerobic for weight loss, it’s not that simple. The same period of time anaerobic will burn more Cal than aerobic training, however most people are not able to keep the intensity log enough, and they stop. With the aerobic they are able to go on longer and thus in most cases end up burning more Cal for the workout.

On to the topic of this post. While bits and pieces or what James says are true, the whole picture he is presenting is false. To say 4x and DH are the same physically is like saying running a 400 and the mile are the same. I can’t think of anyone that can pin it 100% the whole way down on a DH course; you can on a 4x course. Most technique coaches, EC included will tell you not to pin it from the start.

First in reality there is never such a thing as aerobic and anaerobic when dealing with a human, even when you are flat out, your body is still sucking in all the oxygen it can and using it, and inverse even when you are sleeping your still using anaerobic pathways and producing lactate.

Let’s look at what aerobic work does for you. First most people will say there are two types of aerobic training LSD (long slow distance), and contrary to what people thing long intervals the 2-5 min type.

What does LSD get you? Increase the number of capillaries perfusing the muscle fibers, increase red blood cell and hemoglobin concentration and total blood volume, increase mitochondrial density in muscle, increase the ability of muscles to extract oxygen from the blood, and enhance the ability of the muscles to store more carbohydrate.

What do Long Intervals get you? An increase the maximal amount of oxygen the muscles can consume per minute. How’s that happen? Increase the size of the heart's left ventricle, venous return(blood coming back into the heart) stroke volume (Amount of blood pumped per beat), cardiac output(amount of blood pumped in a min, basically stroke volume times the number of beats.), and contractility (How hard the heart can squash the blood out).

This is all important stuff to have built up. That being said it is possible to improve aerobic fitness by training with and anaerobic program, however it’s been shown the training is much more effect on both sides if it’s done on an aerobic base.

It has been shown that endurance training with strength training is going to lean in favor of the endurance; you are going to get weaker and gain more endurance, how ever I don’t know of too many programs that have your heavy strength program on top of the base endurance phase.

Let me say this, I think for most DH’ers any training will help, as most rec racers don’t really train much at all, in fact in know quite a few who don’t at all other than practice and race runs. So my point is, stick with the base in
You are conveniently leaving out the fact that aerobic activities will burn muscle as well as fat (effectively lowering the metabolism, for those concerned about fat loss) and it will convert some fast twitch fibers into slow twitch fibers. For the fat loss crowd, it also strengthens your aerobic energetic pathway, meaning that you will burn fat more efficiently, requiring more effort to burn the same amount of fat calories. This makes it harder to sustain fat loss in the long term.

As for DH/ 4X fitness, though, all of the above listed stuff is less than desirable. Surely there is another option available that will let you maintain the energetic pathways you need for DH/ 4X riding while increasing important areas such as mobility and working on re/ pre-hab. Wouldn't this make more sense than blindly following an old training dogma?

BTW, I know DH and 4X are not the same thing but they are both anaerobic dominate (as you pointed out, all 3 pathways are always in use so I'll use the more appropriate term). This means that they will not benefit from aerobic base training and that is the only way that I am comparing them.

Lastly, Ian King - one of the greatest strength coaches of all time - had a saying: The good enough is the enemy of the best. Sure, it's good enough to do something, even if it is only aerobic base training. But it is certainly is not the best we can do. I do not accept good enough and always look for the best way...
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
Two things make it extremely difficult for me to respond to most of the challenges made to my assertions. First, I do not subscribe to linear periodization. Alternating and undulating periodization are much more effective, both in the lab and the real world. This makes it difficult to respond to challenges based on linear periodization. I simply do not buy into the notion that you should train in distinct blocks, focusing on one thing at a time. This is an inefficient model at best.
Where is the body of evidence that shows it to be superior to a linear program in sports performance, because i sure can't find anything. I've looked, nothing is popping up in peer reviewed science journals, not much in the popular media with the exception of the body building sites. The only sports related things i can find is possible improvement in 1 RM for lifting, and some individuals observations on 1 or 2 athletes, that it seems to work as well as a liner model.
 

bikejames

Chimp
Oct 13, 2006
90
0
Actually Lopes and I spend a fair bit of time on a road bike….not as much as the past as the sport has evolved, but I consider it a foundation of my training.

This was a Quote from James and my last post to the "leg press is bad thread" and I believe the reason that James has started this thread.

Edited down for length...
EC

Your post was definitely the main reason I created this thread but there was another thread that had this come up as well so I thought it best to start fresh with this post.

Also, I can not argue with results. You're obviously a legend and what you have done has worked great. However, when you really look at the evidence I stand by my conclusion. Use of excessive aerobic exercise will have a negative impact on muscle mass (while you may not want to gain it you certainly don't want to loose it), on strength and on power. This means that at best we re-train those qualities and then hopefully add some more on top later into the program.

I feel that there is a better way. First, using aerobic exercise as active recovery (60% estimated max heart rate for 20-30 min.). Second, using a low volume of sprint and gate start intervals, simply to maintain form and anaerobic strength. Third, add in some strength training that is targeted to body control, strength-to-weight ratio and strength/ power endurance (anaerobic endurance) specific to MTB riding. Lastly, a good flexibility/ mobility program. This will avoid the step back we all agree aerobic training gives you in strength and power while maintaining our anaeorbic endurance so we can better work on it as well as we progress.

I just feel that there is a better way for us to train as MTB athletes/ riders. Stuff that has worked in the past may not be the best way.

Thanks for your support so far, I hope that I did not offend you with this post. I am simply trying to present another point of view on the subject.
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
You are conveniently leaving out the fact that aerobic activities will burn muscle as well as fat (effectively lowering the metabolism, for those concerned about fat loss) and it will convert some fast twitch fibers into slow twitch fibers. For the fat loss crowd, it also strengthens your aerobic energetic pathway, meaning that you will burn fat more efficiently, requiring more effort to burn the same amount of fat calories. This makes it harder to sustain fat loss in the long term.

As for DH/ 4X fitness, though, all of the above listed stuff is less than desirable. Surely there is another option available that will let you maintain the energetic pathways you need for DH/ 4X riding while increasing important areas such as mobility and working on re/ pre-hab. Wouldn't this make more sense than blindly following an old training dogma?

BTW, I know DH and 4X are not the same thing but they are both anaerobic dominate (as you pointed out, all 3 pathways are always in use so I'll use the more appropriate term). This means that they will not benefit from aerobic base training and that is the only way that I am comparing them.

Lastly, Ian King - one of the greatest strength coaches of all time - had a saying: The good enough is the enemy of the best. Sure, it's good enough to do something, even if it is only aerobic base training. But it is certainly is not the best we can do. I do not accept good enough and always look for the best way...
I didn't leave it out, aerobic training is NOT a catabolic pathway, there is a side pathway that is able to catabolic, and it will happen with any type of exercise if your blood glucose gets to low, and your body will even use free floating protein before it breaks down muscle. If you eat while you train you'll be fine.

It's physiologically impossible to turn a FT muscle fiber into a ST fiber and vise versa, You can make Type IIA fibers act more like a ST with heavy endurance training, however they revert right back to being more like a IIB FT fiber with speed training, the changes happen rather quickly, and a IIA fiber is not anywhere near as strong as a IIB.

On to my fav one of yours, the fat burning. While yes aerobic training increase the ability, why is this a bad thing? Why wouldn't you want to using more Fat as fuel? Save the glycogen for when you need to crank up the anaerobic pathway. And more effort to burn fat cals? What are you talking about?

I'm sorry but everything you post on here is the same, I see you offering no proof on claims you make, twisting science fit what you want to sayand making just some flat out wrong statements.

I'm all for new things, but that's how you should present this, your program does not, go along with what a majority of trainers and coaches are doing. I'm all for trying new things, when i see a potental benefit in it, but till i see that potental, i'm going to call it like i see it.
 

bikejames

Chimp
Oct 13, 2006
90
0
Where is the body of evidence that shows it to be superior to a linear program in sports performance, because i sure can't find anything. I've looked, nothing is popping up in peer reviewed science journals, not much in the popular media with the exception of the body building sites. The only sports related things i can find is possible improvement in 1 RM for lifting, and some individuals observations on 1 or 2 athletes, that it seems to work as well as a liner model.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11991778&dopt=Abstract

It's a new concept, scientifically speaking at least. There isn't going to be a huge body of work, but what is out there strongly suggests that there are superior models for us now. Either way, I trained myself and clients using both and I can tell you that there is no comparison when it comes to the results I've seen - linear periodization is far from our best option.