[dw]

The more I have thought about this, the more scary it has gotten.

I can just imagine 2 really competitive brawlers, like Rennie and Kovarik for example, going into some hairy section neck to neck, pushing off of each other jockeying for position, and someone making a mistake and getting really hurt.

I dont know, I dont like it. I mean, I just dont think that the added spectator excitement is worth the possible outcome.

Granted, these guys put their life on the line every time they ride, but the added instability of having 4 people on the course all at the same time add some serious concern for rider safety in my mind. Some of the worst crashes that I have ever seen have been when riders try to take a chance at a sketchy line to pass a slower rider on course.

Anyways, discuss.

Dave

 

[Brian HCM#1]

It would definatly put the risk of serious injury much higher. DH is dangerous enough the way it is.

 

[Lexx D]

Yeah as fun as it would be to watch i don't want to see people getting hurt because of it. DH can be enough fun to watch, I don't want to see more injuries simply for my "enjoyment".

 

[dante]

yeah, that sounds a little too dangerous. what would be more fun would be a "team downhill", where you have two guys tied together with a 10' harness. Fastest team down wins...

I think that the idea of a 4-man DH race is to have wide open courses that are probably like a long 4x course. Would dumb down the courses too much and take away too much of the fun...
What's wrong with DH the way it is???

dante

 

[Matt D]

NORBA sucks enough already, why try to implement a new format when they can't get the current one right (no cash prizes for instances)???

 

[slcpunk21]

I disagree in a sense.... if someone is willing to do it let em...

But then you have the mentality of people where they'll do anything if it's put in front of them. And if they then get hurt lawsuits fly all over the place, so in the end it might do more harm than anything...

But like I said I guess if they are willing to let em... just don't want to see it hurt the sport at all.


(kinda like NASCAR... Why the hell did they put the restrictor plates on the cars? If they are willing to get in and drive that fast.. let em, hell they get paid enough)


Oh and I love DH the way it is.... don't think the NEED to creat 4x DH, but that's me.

 

[slcpunk21]

Originally posted by Matt D
NORBA sucks enough already, why try to implement a new format when they can't get the current one right (no cash prizes for instances)???

I hear that's supposed to change in a year or two... they just I gues didn't have the funds with all the changing of the guard and what not. That's just something I remember reading somewhere. I may have missundrestood it. But there you have it my .02 cents.

 

[UiUiUiUi]

we will see this weekend is the first DH Eliminator race i know about in Leogang Austria.
hopefully nobody gets hurt!

time will tell, not my piece of cake though.

 

[dw]

Ui

They are doing one at Big Bear this weekend!

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by dante
I think that the idea of a 4-man DH race is to have wide open courses that are probably like a long 4x course. Would dumb down the courses too much and take away too much of the fun...

dante

Which means they have to be more man made as opposed to natural obstacles.....

I think about the Yardsale at Mt. Snow and the Wild Zone (or whatever they call the rock drop under the lift) at Snowshoe.... why do you have to improve that? That stuff seems pretty exciting for spectators (dangerous enough for riders).

Now I've never been to the west coast for DH races BUT it seems from the footage I have seen and the folks that I have talked to that the courses there aren't as naturally technical as the eastern races. Could this be a reaction to that? Seeing some guy hit a man made double in the middle of a big field at speed gets kinda boring after awhile, having him doing it with 3 others livens that up....

That being said I definately think that its a bad idea....

but Hey NORBA and its National series promoters know everything and seem to be doing an excellent job..... so this will probably work out great.... (what did you say? someone won a NORBA race on a road bike?)

 

[UiUiUiUi]

Originally posted by dw
Ui

They are doing one at Big Bear this weekend!

Ah ok i didnt know that, but if the pictures from big bear and the videos from the last years aren't misleading, it seems that big bear might be the perfect location to try that out, its mostly wide open terrain, right?

 

[Tweek]

Hey, as long as it's being done to create a "spectacle," why not add spiked gloves like in Rollerball, and a razor-like drilling bit to the front and rear hubs ala Ben Hur? Then have 'em go at it.

 

[Zark]

I'm excited to see it actually. I don't think every venue would support it well and I don't think it should replace regular DH racing. Its a supplement to regular DH racing.

It dictates a wide open course but hopefully designers will take advantage of multiple lines so things can get tight and techy and still result in passing.

 

[Full Trucker]

Originally posted by Matt D
...why try to implement a new format...

The thing is, it's NOT a new format... it's the return of DOWNHILL MANIA! It's my understanding that 'back in the day' 4-man DH races were not uncommon...

 

[bizutch]

I think this is the issue.

The X-games got a tremendous format when they showcased boardercross & skier cross. Lots of action, lots of crashes and guys slipping, falling, flipping and crashing.

Everyone wants to apply that concept to mountain biking...but the risk for injury is multiplied tremendously because of one element.

We ride on DIRT. Sure, the skiers and snowboarders are hitting HUGE jumps and wrecking big! But they're on snow/ice...it's a much lower friction surface than dirt. When they wipe out at 30 miles an hour, the ground doesn't drag them to an immediate stop and multiply the force of their impact...it helps disperse some of the force of impact.

Dirt, however, grips like a brake pad. Riders hit dirt at 25mph and they hit a wall. When they contact the ground, every part of them immediately is pulled to a stop. Your shoulder hits the ground...stops, and whips your neck, slamming your head into the ground. Have the same wreck on snow or ice and your shoulder skids briefly before fully contacting the ground and you have a slight ability to roll through the impact. You still impact, but the force of the impact is tremendously less.

That's my 2cents.

 

[tmx]

As a racer, I'm not interested in trying it, though one never knows what bug might bite me if faced with the option. The format disinterests me, seems like sensationalism for the sake of sensationalism and presents a danger beyond what is already pretty dangerous. It's doubtful I'd ever try it, especially because I prefer racing in conditions such as Idaho, WV, VT and the solitude of my race run.

I don't trust BB and have no comprehension how they can create this beast given their reputation for having poorly constructed man-made jumps.

I am not at BB this w/e for these sorts of reasons. Very much looking forward to reports that injuries are at a minimum and my concerns for the gonzo downhill were unwarranted and all had a good time. Sometimes it's great to be wrong.

 

[mental]

I disagree dw.

We do them all the time in my neck of the woods (granted it's usually just buddies travelling at less than World Cup speeds) and we've never had any injuries because of contact, and we're running a hell of a lot more than just 4 at a time.

If races are run on courses that allow room for multiple riders, what's to be afraid of? I see it being as much fun (actually much more IMHO) for the riders as it is for the spectators.

To be successful, I think 4-man DH needs to run on beginner and sport DH courses with plenty of grooming for multiple lanes. Expert and pro courses are much too gnarly for this format.

 

[djjohnr]

What DH racing needs to make money isn't 4x DH racing (2x could be interesting though). They need to find a way to televise it. What we need are on-board-bike mini cameras - aka THE CARNAGE CAM!

 

[Sandwich]

there's nothing quite like racing your friend down a hill. The problems come about when the terrain is too tight for racing side by side. East cost shiz like plattekill will be too tight and steep to be jockeying for position. I wouldn't mind seeing it on larger hills with steeper sections and longer runs, but I think in places where you spend most of your time in the woods it won't be any better. There's no space to pass-there's no racing.

It could be cool though, to see a long open fire road, followed by a tight section, followed by open again. Riders would have to get in front before the section, make it through, and then sprint out ahead come the next open road. It could make for some good racing. If it's all open or all tight, the holeshot will probably win each time.

The could also make separate lines through obstacles....one rider might be faster on one line, another could be faster on something else (eg, big drop vs. hairy line).

Just some ideas/rambling.

 

[Brian Peterson]

What's wrong with trying some different ideas? Besides, as all of us So Cal guys know, Big Bear is mostly fire roads. So that makes for a great place to do something like this. With some of the tighter venues back east, this wouldn't be such a good idea... Unless there were several possible lines....

Brian

 

[mental]

Exactly my point, if courses are made correctly, it's an amazing format.

After breaking my wrist early last season, I spent many hours grooming, digging, and hiking searching for the ultimate 4-X through the trees.

The result?

No less than 3 "equal time" lines (some much gnarlier than others) for riders mixing it up elbow to elbow on a 2 minute descent.

Come ride it and try to tell me you didn't have fun charging your lines with 3 others vying for position!

I should add, we've even done this format after a few beers and still no one was injured in the process.

 

[slcpunk21]

Originally posted by mental
Exactly my point, if courses are made correctly, it's an amazing format.

After breaking my wrist early last season, I spent many hours grooming, digging, and hiking searching for the ultimate 4-X through the trees.

The result?

No less than 3 "equal time" lines (some much gnarlier than others) for riders mixing it up elbow to elbow on a 2 minute descent.

Come ride it and try to tell me you didn't have fun charging your lines with 3 others vying for position!

why not just pave it all and build wood ramps? I mean.. it'd be faster... bigger jumps... and umm.. yeah...

I get lost when a course has to be completely groomed just so a race can be had on it. If we need to groom courses and all that why not just go back to bmxing? (not saying bmxing is a bad think ok.. it's an awsome sport) Just saying that mtbing was brought up to be a bit different.....

 

[Lexx D]

I'm with you on the more open course or multiple line aspect. I think it would be a ton of fun in that case. I'm just used to plattekill so my percepiton of a four man DH is a little warped.

 

[Matt D]

It just flat out won't work on the East Coast, unless you clearcut an 8 foot wide trail though the woods. Just think about the Snowshoe course, where on earth would you pass with the existing course except the few hundred feet of fireroad(A new one has been cut but I don't think they cut it with 4 man in mind)?

I think it's going to be a West Coast only thing, unless you want to race on Fireroads with jumps built in which is boardering on Mountaincross.

I'm very interested to hear how it goes at BB this weekend.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Originally posted by Matt D
(no cash prizes for instances)???

Actually, several (if not all) Norba races will have cash prizes for the pros this year. I know there will be cash prizes here at the Snowshoe stop. The venues are putting up money this season and I believe there is some sponsorship money for prizes as well.

 

[Damn True]

I don't see a benefit to it other than the fact that it will play well on TV. However, I think 4x provides the same thing no? Well.....if they build quality courses at least.....hello, X-games DH BMX?

IMO the reason DH is as great as it is, is BECAUSE it is an ITT. The factors involved are the rider, the mountain, and the bike. If an individual crashes and fails it is because HE/SHE screwed up. In reality, the only thing you are racing is yourself.

I like 4x, but it's a different deal. You throw in three other variables to the mix. If I make a mistake, I can ruin, not only my own day, but perhaps somone else's entire season. I don't think the series will benefit from having two formats in which somones season can be cut short by someone elses blunder.

 

[MMike]

Compromise:

1 race course, 4 guys, 2 tandem bikes

 

[Lexx D]

Originally posted by MMike
Compromise:

1 race course, 4 guys, 2 tandem bikes

Now this sounds interesting

 

[BMXman]

Originally posted by Damn True
I don't see a benefit to it other than the fact that it will play well on TV. However, I think 4x provides the same thing no? Well.....if they build quality courses at least.....hello, X-games DH BMX?

IMO the reason DH is as great as it is, is BECAUSE it is an ITT. The factors involved are the rider, the mountain, and the bike. If an individual crashes and fails it is because HE/SHE screwed up. In reality, the only thing you are racing is yourself.

I like 4x, but it's a different deal. You throw in three other variables to the mix. If I make a mistake, I can ruin, not only my own day, but perhaps somone else's entire season. I don't think the series will benefit from having two formats in which somones season can be cut short by someone elses blunder.

exactly my thoughts...dh is dangerous enough already....how many top pro's are really going to risk their necks so early in the season?....D

 

[DH Diva]

I guess I don't know why everyone is freaking out about this. Year after year we hear the complaints about the big bear DH course. It's not technical enough, it's too man made, ect. Well, they did something to spice things up a bit. This format obviously won't work on MOST national courses, but at a place like big bear where land use is limited and whats available to race on is really already like a big 4x track, then why not?

 

[Captain Crunch]

I think you guys are underestimating Pro racers ability/willingness to race any format, any time, most anywhere, if given the chance. I think that people like Cedric , Mike King, Vories, Rennie, Peat, and others (read 'new school kids') would have little reservations about trying something like this. Despite there being money and fame, etc.. on the line, racers in all sports I know still don't really want to injure one another, I'm sure these riders can figure out how to pass, and make moves in a way that doesen't have to spell death to others, most of the time.....

It will definetly be something you can't do everywhere, but I bet you would be surprised as to what they can do if they want. We most of us have spent many a day racing friends down tight singletrack, and I personally have raced, informally, my friends on Dh trails as well. It's not really all that farfetched, I think, to imagine it becoming popular. I think a separate discipline might evolve out of it, as I hope to see Super D make it as well. That is a fun sounding format!

 

[Lumpy_Gravy]

Its like F1 qualifying vs the actual F1 race...... Wait I forgot they no longer overtake in F1 anymore.

Anyhow what I love about motor racing is watching cars battle for position, theres tonnes of strategy involved. It also demonstrates the strengths and weaknesses of riders.

I think it would be great.

I wish rally cars would do it too.

edit: safety issues aside of course. its ridiculously dangerous. Maybe if they had designated overtaking areas. i.e. coming out of a corner where lines open up and the fastest can carry their speed through and overtake after the corner rather than in the corner.....thus lessen the risk of ploughing into the other rider on the apex

 

[mental]

Originally posted by slcpunk21
why not just pave it all and build wood ramps? I mean.. it'd be faster... bigger jumps... and umm.. yeah...

I get lost when a course has to be completely groomed just so a race can be had on it. If we need to groom courses and all that why not just go back to bmxing? (not saying bmxing is a bad think ok.. it's an awsome sport) Just saying that mtbing was brought up to be a bit different.....

You've missed the idea here. By groomed, I mean, we've taken out all the little sticks and crap so a rider can be confident when he rides that line through the trees, nothing's going to reach up and grab him or his bike.

We've cut no trees, and the result is a big wide trail through the forest. As I said it may be wide, but in actuality, it's more like 4 unique lines (of equal time) that criss-cross down the mountain.

Trust me, it's nothing like BMX!

I really don't see the risk here. It's a hell of a lot less dangerous than say, bicycle commuting in New York City!

 

[neversummersnow]

All I can think is in Moto they seem to do just fine with LOTS of riders on a track. Why, if done right, can't DH be okay? I think it will always come down to the course.

 

[Brian Peterson]

What I am seeing here is similiar in the mind set I see in BMX... People get comfortable in tradition, and anything different is all of the sudden bad. Remember the whole up rising a few years back when dual slalom was dropped? But has mountain cross been so bad?

I like Mental's idea.... I could so picture something like that...

I have a friend who has had an idea for what he called mountain cross about 6 or 7 years ago.. His idea involved several short laps on a course that was mostly downhill with some jumps and such, but with a climb thrown in to get you back to the top.... Multiple riders on course..... And now with dual ring chain guides, it could even be more feasible...

Brian

 

[spookydave]

Originally posted by neversummersnow
All I can think is in Moto they seem to do just fine with LOTS of riders on a track. Why, if done right, can't DH be okay? I think it will always come down to the course.

That's kinda what I'm thinking.
DH racing as it stands now is more like a drag race then anything else. Now you are racing against the time clock and the new way you'll be racing against 3 other people.

I've raced motor sports (boats) for a long time. Drag racing is cool because you go so fast and it's so freaking scary. Roundy round racing and endurance is totally different when they toss 7 other people out there with ya. It's wayyyyyyyyyy more intense!
Like they say in NASCAR, rubbing's racing.

I do agree though that you need the correct course for it and it's not for everyone.

 

[mgy]

Originally posted by DH Diva
I guess I don't know why everyone is freaking out about this. Year after year we hear the complaints about the big bear DH course. It's not technical enough, it's too man made, ect. Well, they did something to spice things up a bit. This format obviously won't work on MOST national courses, but at a place like big bear where land use is limited and whats available to race on is really already like a big 4x track, then why not?

Exactly! The first Downhill Mania was at Big Bear years ago (it was raining at the base, hailing halfway up the lift and snowing up top). I raced in it and several other DH Manias at Deer Valley and Squaw and they were a lot of fun. Mountain Cross is much more dangerous, things get pretty spread out in 4 man dh and there is less pimpin' and elbowing.

Funny didn't we have this thread a few months ago?

 

[slcpunk21]

Originally posted by mental
You've missed the idea here. By groomed, I mean, we've taken out all the little sticks and crap so a rider can be confident when he rides that line through the trees, nothing's going to reach up and grab him or his bike.

We've cut no trees, and the result is a big wide trail through the forest. As I said it may be wide, but in actuality, it's more like 4 unique lines (of equal time) that criss-cross down the mountain.

Trust me, it's nothing like BMX!

I really don't see the risk here. It's a hell of a lot less dangerous than say, bicycle commuting in New York City!

Ok, got it.. thought you were talking about truely "groomed" runs.. as like a BMX obviously.

Yeah depending on how it's setup it could be cool. I just think as in a MX or BMX format it may get boring almost because it's just like the both of them.... isn't what we do different the thing that makes this sport exciting?

 

[James | Go-Ride]

All I have to say is that Big Bear had better figure out how to build jumps right if they're going to be pushing 4 people down the course at once. Anybody remember last year . . . people DYING . . . Personally I think the 4-man DH format will be incredibly cool. Does anybody remember in '99 or 2000 when they had what equated to an uber-4x at the Glen Helen MX national (maybe it was Big Bear)? The gaps were like 50 - 70 feet, and guys were doing about 40 the whole time? That is how 4-man DH should be IMO. Big wide courses with plenty of space to pass, 2 - 4 lines in each corner, huge jumps with double/triple options so guys who can't jump 70 footers don't have to. Granted, these courses would be incredibly difficult to build, but like Neversummer said, MX guys can race with 50 people on the track and not get hurt, so a bunch of top pro DH guys who ride MX in their spare time should be able to do 4 at a time without too much trouble.

 

[BurlyShirley]

WTF are all you people talking about?

Havent you ever heard of a Hares Scramble or GNCC RACING ? We're talking 50 man starts onto a trail no bigger at all than a DH course.
These guys (not even close to all pros, beginners and all) go much faster over much nastier terrain with alot more riders than you'd ever get in some 4-man DH.

Too dangerous Please people, this is the best idea Ive heard yet because its actual DH "RACING" not a time trial.

Bunch of wusses around this place.