[OGRipper]

Wait... wait... wait. Now I'm in that drunk, addict, moron classification. You make it sound like I'm for drug use in racing. I just want to hear about someone that you have seen for years using roids getting caught. I know it's going on, yet people are getting caught for pot and diet pills... lame. The REAL problem is the use of EPO and roids. Yet because they have like 7 strains of EPO and only 3 are testable so athletes use it and get away with it, or are about to get caught, quit, and take the money and run. A warning might be nice too. Instead these people are just going away and never come back. 1 year for pot vs. 2 years for a diet pill. What do they do pull this crap out of a hat.

There is no way for us to know that all it was, was "a diet pill."

In this case there are apparently factors that we don't know about. There could be any number of additional infractions, whether drug-related or not, and it's possible that what we know is the result of a carefully crafted agreement. If it's not being contested, that's more likely, and hopefully you can appreciate the possibility that the governing body might be exercising a little discretion. Too much credit? Maybe, but you're not giving them enough.

I think the real problem is the fact that people continue to confuse the issues. The rules are there for everyone to follow. You want to play? Play by the rules. You might think EPO and roids are the real problem, and you're entitled to that opinion, but the governing bodies have made their own decisions as to what substances are permissible. When a penalty is handed out it's not for you or any other racer to say that one banned substance is worse than another.

Sorry but to me the only defensible position on this one is the high road. If you want to be a pro, comply with the rules. If you don't like 'em, take steps to get the rules changed.

 

[Zutroy]

There is no way for us to know that all it was, was "a diet pill."

In this case there are apparently factors that we don't know about. There could be any number of additional infractions, whether drug-related or not, and it's possible that what we know is the result of a carefully crafted agreement. If it's not being contested, that's more likely, and hopefully you can appreciate the possibility that the governing body might be exercising a little discretion. Too much credit? Maybe, but you're not giving them enough.

I think the real problem is the fact that people continue to confuse the issues. The rules are there for everyone to follow. You want to play? Play by the rules. You might think EPO and roids are the real problem, and you're entitled to that opinion, but the governing bodies have made their own decisions as to what substances are permissible. When a penalty is handed out it's not for you or any other racer to say that one banned substance is worse than another.

Sorry but to me the only defensible position on this one is the high road. If you want to be a pro, comply with the rules. If you don't like 'em, take steps to get the rules changed.

There are no steps to get the rules changed. The drugs Czars made them, and that's the way they are staying with some exeptions now and again when they figure out they are full of crap. Caffiene is a good example, one badly done study on outta shape people suggests that is might make you be able to go faster, and they freaked out and banned, then found out years later, it doesn't make a hill of beans difference. There are lots of drugs on there that offer no performance advatage, they are just dinosaurs on the list that someone at somepoint thought helped.

The whole drug testing process is needed, but the way it is done, and the "science" behind alot of the testing is questionable.

Think about this one, Filip take EPO a known performance enhancer on purpose, and publicly admits it, get two years, a substance is taken by accident that had no known benefit, but you both get 2 years...make sense of that one.

 

[Zutroy]

.

I think the real problem is the fact that people continue to confuse the issues. The rules are there for everyone to follow. You want to play? Play by the rules. You might think EPO and roids are the real problem, and you're entitled to that opinion, but the governing bodies have made their own decisions as to what substances are permissible. When a penalty is handed out it's not for you or any other racer to say that one banned substance is worse than another.

Yeah these guys know all. These are the same guys that wrote into a procedure for the testing at the olympics to freeze whole blood samples.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Caffiene is a good example, one badly done study on outta shape people suggests that is might make you be able to go faster, and they freaked out and banned, then found out years later, it doesn't make a hill of beans difference.



Think about this one, Filip take EPO a known performance enhancer on purpose, and publicly admits it, get two years, a substance is taken by accident that had no known benefit, but you both get 2 years...make sense of that one.

Not to be a dink, but caffeine is an extremely effective performance enhancer, and has been considered one the whole time. The reason it's been removed from it's former status is that it is ergogenic at very low doses, and the old illegal level was ridiculosly high. This is the image of a responsive regulatory agency, not a reactive one.

It is not up to laws to regulate intent, only action.

 

[Zutroy]

Not to be a dink, but caffeine is an extremely effective performance enhancer, and has been considered one the whole time. The reason it's been removed from it's former status is that it is ergogenic at very low doses, and the old illegal level was ridiculosly high. This is the image of a responsive regulatory agency, not a reactive one.

It is not up to laws to regulate intent, only action.

Actually it is not in elite level Athletes. The pathway it helps with is all ready maxed out from training. In an untrained person it is effective.

 

[Zutroy]

.

It is not up to laws to regulate intent, only action.

No, it's intent too. If you can prove you unknowingly took the substance you can get the sanction lifted.

 

[OGRipper]

Yeah these guys know all. These are the same guys that wrote into a procedure for the testing at the olympics to freeze whole blood samples.

The reports I read were that the procedure was correct but was not followed, they froze a sample that should not have been frozen.

As for the difference between EPO and diet pills, I CAN make sense of it: First, it's zero tolerance. Second, although you say one has "no known performance benefit," others in this thread disagree.

Zutroy you make some good points but my opinion is that racers should know the rules and be prepared to face the consequences of purposefully or accidentally breaking them. You might be correct that some rules are stupid, but it's part of the price of admission. So go ahead, rant and rave about it, hell I agree it's too much of a hassle to justify - that's one reason I don't race.

We should all be able to live the dream: To make a living riding bikes in a sport governed by fundamental fairness and absolute truth, free of mistakes, unfair judgment calls, and other intrusions that impose someone else's rules on our lives.

But that is a dream.

 

[Transcend]

Think about this one, Filip take EPO a known performance enhancer on purpose, and publicly admits it, get two years, a substance is taken by accident that had no known benefit, but you both get 2 years...make sense of that one.

Simple - they both doped.

No, it's intent too. If you can prove you unknowingly took the substance you can get the sanction lifted.

Good luck with that one. No way you can "prove" either way. Only proof is that the substance was in your blood.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Actually it is not in elite level Athletes. The pathway it helps with is all ready maxed out from training. In an untrained person it is effective.

You sir, are wrong. Pathway? huh?

I don't know what scientific journals you subscribe to, or who you hold certifications from, but in the exercise science community it is a well established FACT that there are only 3 legal and effective performance enhancing substances for endurance exercise, caffeine, water and calories.

Here a brief lay-review of caffeine for you to brush up. A quick google search does wonders! http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/CaffeineAthletes.htm

 

[dhtahoe]

There are no steps to get the rules changed. The drugs Czars made them, and that's the way they are staying with some exeptions now and again when they figure out they are full of crap. Caffiene is a good example, one badly done study on outta shape people suggests that is might make you be able to go faster, and they freaked out and banned, then found out years later, it doesn't make a hill of beans difference. There are lots of drugs on there that offer no performance advatage, they are just dinosaurs on the list that someone at somepoint thought helped.

The whole drug testing process is needed, but the way it is done, and the "science" behind alot of the testing is questionable.

Think about this one, Filip take EPO a known performance enhancer on purpose, and publicly admits it, get two years, a substance is taken by accident that had no known benefit, but you both get 2 years...make sense of that one.

This is kinda what I'm talking about. Alot of money and resorces being used on all of this drug testing when it could be used to make the races better in the first place. Like NORBA the anti-doping folks...just because they are running the show does not mean that they are doing a good job or need room for improvement. I know that drug testing is VERY expensive in the U.S. because it becomes a legal matter. That means liability for the lab doing the test. Which mean it more than likely costs more here in the U.S. than it does else where. Another thought... is our sport that "dirty"? Funny it has been a huge issue in road for years and they still have not fixed it. The system the way it is now will not catch the cheaters, but the guy who took to many bong ripes to make "an example" for others to obey. The laws on drugs vary from state to state, country to country. That's how that snowboarder from Canada got his olympic medal back... It's legal where he's from. Look it up that was his story and he won his medal back. Look I'll be honest here this was never a pro-anti drug issue to begin with. I am how ever pissed off how things are being handled in general. The people that are running our sport are focusing on the wrong part of the movie. They should be getting money together, getting us some TV coverage, and making our sport grow again. Not spending what little money they have over policeing the athletes. It's all hogwash anyway. I once read that if you are on a good team you have "people who take care of these matters" that work for the team. How many of us have that kind of people. I bet the top five do!!! The only people that have been busted for serious drugs (i.e. Filip) where not because of a wiz ouiz but in hotel room raids.

Transend: Bootes got busted for party drugs

Man this whole pot thing is going to really cut into sales at Clif and Powerbar

 

[Transcend]

That's how that snowboarder from Canada got his olympic medal back...

Transend: Bootes got busted for party drugs:

No, it's not. why the hell does everyone think pot is legal in Canada? It isn't even decriminalized, and is a hell of a long way from being legal.

And ya, you are right, I spaced on this one...there are suspicions of other things however.

 

[Zutroy]

No, it's not. why the hell does everyone think pot is legal in Canada? It isn't even decriminalized, and is a hell of a long way from being legal.

And ya, you are right, I spaced on this one...there are suspicions of other things however.

Jan Ulrich also got busted for Partying....don't think X helps ya ride faster.

 

[dhtahoe]

He was from B.C.

 

[dhtahoe]

Jan Ulrich also got busted for Partying....don't think X helps ya ride faster.

Ya but what about the coke???????????????????????????????????????

 

[Zutroy]

The reports I read were that the procedure was correct but was not followed, they froze a sample that should not have been frozen.

As for the difference between EPO and diet pills, I CAN make sense of it: First, it's zero tolerance. Second, although you say one has "no known performance benefit," others in this thread disagree.

Zutroy you make some good points but my opinion is that racers should know the rules and be prepared to face the consequences of purposefully or accidentally breaking them. You might be correct that some rules are stupid, but it's part of the price of admission. So go ahead, rant and rave about it, hell I agree it's too much of a hassle to justify - that's one reason I don't race.

We should all be able to live the dream: To make a living riding bikes in a sport governed by fundamental fairness and absolute truth, free of mistakes, unfair judgment calls, and other intrusions that impose someone else's rules on our lives.

But that is a dream.

It depends who side you believe the IOC people say there were fallowing the procedure agreed on, WADA says the messed up. It's a pissing contest at the moment. The whole situation is a mess. This is the story that is going to blow open the problems with the drug testing system.

 

[dhriderII]

Crack, Heroin, Crystal Meth, and Trimspa Baby!

trimp spa, wouldnt mess with that stuff look what anna nichole looks like ukes: that stuff will mess u up for life... say no to trim spa!!

 

[Zutroy]

You sir, are wrong. Pathway? huh?

I don't know what scientific journals you subscribe to, or who you hold certifications from, but in the exercise science community it is a well established FACT that there are only 3 legal and effective performance enhancing substances for endurance exercise, caffeine, water and calories.

Here a brief lay-review of caffeine for you to brush up. A quick google search does wonders! http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/CaffeineAthletes.htm

Yeah a google search does do wonders, so does a Pubmed and Medline search. You'll find many articles that say we say an increase in performace. Then it will be followed up by, "not significant". What I always find interesting are most of the studies that find an increase in "performance" are funded by people making products. Even the people who claim an increase say they don't know how it works.

It's just like alitute training,we don't know.

I do agree with you, water and calories are defenitly ergogenic aids.

 

[Transcend]

It's just like alitute training,we don't know.

as someone who has lived and trained at altitude, we do know. It is a no brainer, sorry.

 

[Zutroy]

as someone who has lived and trained at altitude, we do know. It is a no brainer, sorry.

No we don't know if it helps for sure. No one has been able to prove it works. All the studies that have been done have failed to prove it.

In theory, it should work, but that's assuming you do it right, and depending on who you talk to, depends on what's the right way.

Even the people that came up with the most "accepted" theory on how to do it, the live high train low model were never able to get a controlled study to work, beleive me they tried.

There are so many variables involved in going fast, it hard to say for sure what will work for someone and what won't. Everyone is different. Elite level athletes are freaks in themselves, and have things happening in them physiologically that we don't understand at all.

Like was saying, i'm not saying it can't work, or it doesn't we just don't know, and alot of things that people beleive are fact, are not that. Look at Lactic Acid there is so much miss information about that one topic it's not even funny.

 

[bizutch]

SSSSSSSSNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOORRRRRRREEEEEEE!!!!

back to the cheap shots. Anybody around when Ebbett made fun of Lopes at Vermont and said he was on 'roids? Lopes went after him like an angry little monster..."HAR HAR HAR!"

 

[Zutroy]

SSSSSSSSNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOORRRRRRREEEEEEE!!!!

back to the cheap shots. Anybody around when Ebbett made fun of Lopes at Vermont and said he was on 'roids? Lopes went after him like an angry little monster..."HAR HAR HAR!"

What did he go off on him about?

 

[bizutch]

did you read my post? Ebbett said he was on 'roids. It made Lopes mad....and Lopes then maddened at being accused of being on 'roids...ergo...mad....about...him...calling...him....that....

 

[Cant Climb]

did you read my post? Ebbett said he was on 'roids. It made Lopes mad....and Lopes then maddened at being accused of being on 'roids...ergo...mad....about...him...calling...him....that....

Yeah, Lopes looked more than a little puffy in the Headliners Video.....

 

[renegade999]

Yeah, Lopes looked more than a little puffy in the Headliners Video.....

Anyone would look puffy in that condom tight lycra muscle shirt he was wearing at Sheep Hills.

stik - I cant believe you let him wear that!

 

[heikkihall]

Actually it is not in elite level Athletes. The pathway it helps with is all ready maxed out from training. In an untrained person it is effective.

You sounds to be pretty Informed about subjects like this but I just saw this article. It is a pretty basic lesson on caffine but It generally states what exactly that it does to your system. It is pretty informative if you do not allready know much on it. I just thought it would be an interesting read for a couple of people.
http://home.howstuffworks.com/caffeine.htm

 

[ButHerFly]

Jeeez lovers and haters and in between, lol
Who is DH Tahoe? You definitely know me and I appreciate the effort at trying to explain "who I am" but unless you know who i am it's hard.
Think the forum is long winded? Try this, lol..
Heres a very little history...
I grew up in New Zealand on an island in the middle of no-where with no electricity teaching myself through correspondence school. Amazed? My parents were fisherman.A retired english professor and american hippie. I was unwanted. My MOM took me to the island to get me away from things. I had anorexia at 14, bolemia, and a very screwed up 'up bringing'. NO excuse, but the facts. I come from a family of giants. It is very hard, but I am proudly the smallest. My grandfather a 6'9" Texan, my mom and aunt both 6 foot 1" and 200 plus lbs. Our christmas tree was a marijuana tree in NZ and we are italian and love to eat. Growing up around it repulsed me. I was an outcast to them. I became a fitness nut, and obsessed with weight. When I have attempt any drug, it drives me nuts not to be in control. Amongst the craziest partiers from the get go my mom travelled the world with me in tow. We left America when I was 7 or 8 to hitchike NZ. She met an englishman and married him and they became fisherman. Mom didn't want me neither did dad. Both hippie college surfer kids, I was a big mistake that my Mom ended up paying for. My step fathers hated me more. Abused, un loved I wished to be dead.
Then I met Ford. We were like Romeo and Juliet and fell in love. He was 5 years older, but I had boobs and hair and a period by age 10, so age didn't matter. I lost my virginity at 13 (I was an advanced 13! been looking after myself for a lot of years by then) and we got married when I was 18. We had a child-Nikelle at 20 and he died years later. There is so much more, but I'll have to write a book, but who would care?LOL
Anyway, the Redwoods are a nutty bunch as well. They shot cannons off down in Rapid Bay for fun, and our families were inseperable. They didn't want kids either atleast Ford the oldest, so we were a nice fit. They even paid for us to flat together in the city when we got older. We were 14 and 19 living alone in the city I tried to work and do high school. Life was crazy with no direction, no love, no family. When my mom left NZ to travel around the world again, I left soon after.There is so much missing from this story I cant even begin to explain.
My point is, there is little not going on in my mind, no values have been instilled besides the harsh ones I have learned first hand. I realy dont care about winning believe it or not, but I do care about being better than I could possibly imagine I could be. I hate restrictions, rules, etc. I am sure you can see why. And unless they stop me, not much will. That's all I know. I know I am not a drug abuser because I am a control freak. I have been super healthy (except mentally and physically effected by eating disorder) my whole life and would never evendream that a drug I would take would be on that list. I became pro because I was the fastest expert locally. It was to help the team get better sponsorship. I didn't take it too serious and never made money from it. I purely involved myself as one more form of self instilled abuse. Very little of it was fun. With each injury came a weight gain. After I broke both arms and shoulders I was 30 lbs heavier. When i dieted and rode I crashed. I started to get comfortable with being fatter because I had more energy and it was safer. I bounced and didn't break. It was awesome. I was overcoming my obsession with self image etc. Did I mention I had never ridden a bike on dirt or even knew what a mountain bike was until 2001? Long story, but my first ride was womans only weekend dh and XC. I got 3rd in XC and 5th in downhill, the field was big. Never rode bmx, motorcycles, nothing. I was a swimmer, horse back rider, hockey player and skier. LOL
It was something new though and it scared the crap out of me. I had no idea what I was doing! Everyone screwed with my bike and me. I was a guinea pig and new nothing. I have learnt alot. At Mammoth I realized I had skills after riding that course. It was the first time I was convinced I could ride a little. It was the last race and I was excited that I could work on being skinny again cause I could ride safer. I had no idea. If anything I urge anyone to try riding on phentermine before they make a judgement. It was not an enhancer at Mammoth DH. Maybe it would be at XC, but the last thing a person needed at Mammoth was twitchy nerves. I crashed for the first time the day I took it. I crashed 6 times that day! I was a mess. It definitely did not help. And I think that it is hard to do, but they could have thought about that. Now the thing I loved that kept me fit has been taken away. It was a bad year too. Bikes stolen, no more DH, and I hit a car a month ago and broke my xc bike. But as I wished I am a bit thinner because I haven't been worried about crashing. I did an adventure race a couple weeks ago-ouch. I built up a new ellsworth moment and am in love with that. But lost. Maybe I'll figure it out maybe not. But DHing as much money as it cost and accidents and pain and time away, was the best lesson ever. My kids competed with me and their grades were high. With all good comes bad and with this bad I am looking forward to finding the good. Cody will hopefully get braces soon. He is riding with me a little and getting stronger. Nikelle is travelling to NZ and Australia with the nutty Redwoods. We all ski and snowboarded a lot last year. She got real good. I think my toughness finally rubbed off on her. It's about time! 14 years later. Anyway, to be continued....XOC be safe everyone, injuries suck!

 

[ButHerFly]

I teach my kids to endure, overcome and live to the fullest. I don't hide much from them, but alot more of course than my Mom did from me. I discourage drugs, negativity, etc. I encourage positivity, big goals and high standards. Should have looked at the list, but maybe didn't care enough to. Would have liked to have been a semi-pro, but there wasn't one for women. We all learn from our mistakes and this one will save me some money for a while! There is good in everything it's just how you look at it. Hope I didn't let anyone down. All the kids I ride with still like me. And everyone I know would rather see me thin than fat. I don't need to win to prove anything to those that know me. My biggest challenge is that which I have inherited.

 

[mountaingoat]

WTF? Norba SUCKS!! How can they test? There is no cash too be made racing, maybe at the local level.. If they brought cash purse back, maybe.. I am NOT joining NORBA again.. That sucks , I like too race.. They need to check themselves.. All the money we pay too race is lining someones pocket.. NORBA SUCKS!! :evil:

 

[Dunshee80]

granted, she put a banned substance in her body, but isn't a 2 year suspension a little overkill? I'm assuming this was a first offense.

I wish I had extra handa so I could give Norba 4 thumbs down.

 

[blt2ride]

What a joke! It's absurd that someone would be suspended for smoking pot and taking diet pills. Neither of them a "performance enhancing."

 

[Jamsoul]

Chelsea gets banned for taking a diet substance...but CHRIS DEL BOSCO is still racing hmmm pretty strange if u ask me.

 

[ioscope]

Pot is performance enhancing. It enhances Phish performances (or at least the experience).