[Chunky Munkey]

I recently started entertaining the idea of maybe buying another bike in the next six months or so. I want a real well built DH style Y frame, with a motocross style type rear swingarm or triangle frame suspension that has really long travel. I've seen the INTENSE M1 and now the M3 and have always wanted one. I have heard great things about the Intense M3 but in my searches I have found a bike that looks like its' as nice, looks like it's got a real sturdy well built frame like the Intense M3 and low and behold it has that long 10 inch travel type spring in the rear that is the typical mono shock motorcycle style of suspension which is a design I like. I really like the Y frame style the Intense M3 has but I wanted to know if anyone had heard of Foes as I don't see them around anywhere on the internet that much but in my searching I found them, and found they made forks too.

Any input on the subject of their bikes and their forks as I heard the Manitou Intrinsic is supposed to be an extremely good fork too.

All opinions will be appreciated. Thanks.

Here is an example of the bike I speak of. The first one I really like the straight up shock design in the back.

And this one is a more traditional style with the shock up the middle of the Y frame. I personally prefer this rear swingarm over the first one, it looks like it would take more punishment. I could be wrong though, I'm not an engineer. But I like the straight up shock on the other.

Both Foes have a FLOATING BRAKE? Not sure what that's all about either.

and as anyone knows, the Intense M3...
http://www.intensecycles.com/Intense_Main[06].html

Here are direct links to larger shots of the Foes for suspension detail.
http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/Pop/Pic.asp?i=/mmasc/Images/large/fr_foe_mono05.jpg

http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/Pop/Pic.asp?i=/mmasc/Images/large/fr_fo_dhsmno2_1.jpg

 

[Kntr]

2nd one

 

[Chunky Munkey]

Obviously people that own an Intense are going to say one thing and anyone that owns a Foes is going to say oposite.

Kanter for instance.., I clicked your links. Those are beautiful bikes but just telling me to get one doesn't tell me anything about the bike in comparison to the Intense M3 or why I should buy it over the other.

Personally I REALLY like the look of the Foes frame over the M3 but the looks aren't why I'm going to buy the bike in the end.

I need comparisons and why I would want the first bike over the second, or over the M3...

For instance, with the Intense M3, I hear you can get a Manitou Swinger 6 way or you can get the Fox DHX 5.5, but the Foes comes with a Curnutt which I have never heard of and I may be wrong but it looks like it 's no where near the Manitou or Fox in technology and adjustability as it says on their site it's single or dual rate and dual rate doesn't sound like it's really as ajustable. But I don't know that's why I'm asking questions now. I'm getting input to later make a big purchase and I want it to be the right one.

I went to Foesracing.com site and it appears the 2:1 DH bike, "The second photo" is the only one available and the other is not. But it DOES look like the frame is very well designed, very sturdy, rigid, strong well built and made to take hard riding. And like the Intense M3 they have a "swing link" thing on the rear swingarm so I take it that is good too?

 

[anarchyUK]

this is a rad thread

 

[trailhacker]

Never ridden either one but they are blingity though.
Don't really remember hearing many negatives about the frame.
I would think that the rear on the first one would potentially be "stiffer" with the wider triangulation? The swing link on the top tube would help too?
If I recall correctly, with the Curnutt shock they top out at over $3,000 for the frame.

 

[SBDownhillRacer]

you do know that the bike in the second photo cost around 3 grand for just the frame.

 

[Chunky Munkey]

Don't really remember hearing many negatives about the frame.
I would think that the rear on the first one would potentially be "stiffer" with the wider triangulation? The swing link on the top tube would help too?
If I recall correctly, with the Curnutt shock they top out at over $3,000 for the frame.

Yes I know it's big money. And "stiffer" yes that is what I also thought and I like the idea of the stiffer frame for rigidity but I only saw the second one on their website. And you are right too about the $$$. It is like the same neighborhood as the Intense M3.

I haven't got the cash on hand to buy it today but I have about half and I am saving towards it now so the price won't matter, I just want to start looking into my options because so many people have the M3 and everyone says great things about it and both when ready to roll are going to be close to 6 grand.

But the one on their website is this one and it really looks very sturdy and well built in design. The top pic must be an old model. I don't know, that's why I'm asking as I dont' know about them.

I've been riding for going on 11 years now and I have had two other y frame bikes and I love the sport so for me it would be investing into my sport like buying a good pair of skis if you've been skiing for 20 years.

I also don't understand the floating break thing.

 

[Bicyclist]

The floating break makes suspension and braking forces independent so brake squat/jack will be reduced.

For a first bike a Foes is overkill. I'd look used. Plus Foes has crappy customer service.

 

[SBDownhillRacer]

the floating brake allows the rear suspension to move without brake forces acting on it.

 

[Transcend]

My advice: Do way more research than you currently have. Do not buy a bike based on it's looks (or forum users suggestions for that matter).

Ride both, read reviews, learn what a floating brake does, why a 2:1 shock ratio is good and definetly read up on suspension. Some bikes are death traps with floating brakes, some are marginally better and some are so badly designed they are detrimental to the ride and some make the bike really, really nice.

For reference:
Fox vanilla: Junk,
Manitou Swinger: marginally better,
Progressive 5th element: better still but apparently leaving the bike industry.
Fox DHX 5: currently one of the best available along with the Cane Creek double barrel according to riders as of late, but I cannot vouch for the latter as I have never ridden one.

The Curnutt is in a league of it's own as ONLY Foes uses them. Some love them, some absolutely despise them. Not sure about service as I have heard both horor stories and great service stories.

 

[Bicyclist]

My advice: Do way more research than you currently have. do not buy a bike based on it's looks (or forum users suggestions). Ride both, read reviews, learn what a floating brake does, why a 2:1 shock ratio is good and definetly read up on suspension.

For reference:
Fox vanilla: Junk,
Manitou Swinger: marginally better,
Progressive 5th element: better still but apparently leaving the bike industry.
Fox DHX 5: currently one of the best available along with the Cane Creek double barrel according to riders as of late, but I cannot vouch for the latter as I have never ridden one.

The Curnutt is in a league of it's own as ONLY Foes uses them. Some love them, some absolutely despise them. Not sure about service as I have heard both horor stories and great service stories.

And why is a 5th better than a Swinger?

 

[Brian HCM#1]

And why is a 5th better than a Swinger?

Because it doesn't feel like as much poo.

 

[morethanjake543]

Never actually riding one, I've heard some interesting things:

-The Carnutt shocks make some really bad sounding CLUNK noises when they bottom.

-The legnth of the Carnutts and ratios on the 2:1 bikes really make the suspension feel "amazing". I can't elaborate, but that sounds nice.

 

[-dustin]

My advice: Do way more research than you currently have. Do not buy a bike based on forum users suggestions for that matter.

 

[no skid marks]

Curnutt license the design to fith who lisence it out to manitou,I think. The sixth has nicer machining than the 5th and product control.
The Foes is a very high tech specialised bike,not really ideal for a newbie that might not take to the sport or need or appreciate it's merrits that would be outweighed by it's needs for specific Foes maintanence. Keep searching.

 

[Transcend]

Curnutt license the design to fith who lisence it out to manitou,I think. The sixth has nicer machining than the 5th and product control.

The swingers that we have received on team bikes, ALL, sucked complete ass (2 years worth, so not one single bad batch). They made noises like clogged toilets. The damping was all over the map (ie: same setting was drastically different from shock to shock). The knobs tended to come off and the shocks leaked both oil and air.

If you want a platform shock, get a 5th. We rode them for 2 years without a single solitary issue. The only issue would be warranty and parts if they stop making them. They are still producing OE, so I would assume they will have parts and warranty for awhile.

They may license the tech (not sure honestly) but 5ths and Curnutts feel completely different. I wasn't a fan of either to be honest, as both felt overdamped to me. I didn't like that dead 5th element feeling.

 

[Chunky Munkey]

My advice: Do way more research than you currently have. Do not buy a bike based on it's looks (or forum users suggestions for that matter).

Ride both, read reviews, learn what a floating brake does, why a 2:1 shock ratio is good and definetly read up on suspension. Some bikes are death traps with floating brakes, some are marginally better and some are so badly designed they are detrimental to the ride.

For reference:
Manitou Swinger: marginally better,
Fox DHX 5: currently one of the best available along with the Cane Creek double barrel according to riders as of late...

Yes I am beginning now as of recent to do research. Where would I read up on the 2:1 thing you mention and also, now you're scaring me on the "death trap with floating brake" thing...

So I DON'T want floating brake? I read something on it and I guess maybe the explanation was not well written so I didn't get it too much. I got that it was better in a way but not in others. It left me feeling like the end of an expensive first date and feeling like I put a ton of cash down and I didn't get anything out of it. I guess that was just the person trying to convey their feelings on how it worked but they couldn't express it in an easy way.

 

[Bicyclist]

Because it doesn't feel like as much poo.

My Swinger felt better than any 5th I've ridden.

That said I'll never ride an SPV shock again. Fox DHX all the way, baby!

 

[Transcend]

Yes I am beginning now as of recent to do research. Where would I read up on the 2:1 thing you mention and also, now you're scaring me on the "death trap with floating brake" thing...

So I DON'T want floating brake? I read something on it and I guess maybe the explanation was not well written so I didn't get it too much. I got that it was better in a way but not in others. It left me feeling like the end of an expensive first date and feeling like I put a ton of cash down and I didn't get anything out of it. I guess that was just the person trying to convey their feelings on how it worked but they couldn't express it in an easy way.

Oops, i edited. Some floating brakes are necessary (older yetis and schwins come to mind). The thing is, they are the fad of the week in bicycle design right now and some manufacturers just toss them on without a lot of thought. When they do this they do to make the suspension and rear wheel to funky things if not designed properly.

On the proper single pivot, they can make a really big difference as they allow the suspension to track while the brakes are locked up. They do this by allowing the caliper to rotate a little bit with the wheel as the suspension moves. Without it the suspension stiffens up a fair amount.

On 3 similiar bike designs (very similiar) i have felt it go from pretty important, to marginal to not needed. It depends how you ride and what you like, buut its usually pretty obvious.

If you have a single pivot and drag brakes through rocky technical stuff, then it may be of tremendous use to you.

Of course if you are really fast, all of this goes out the window. The current world champ rides a bike with a floating brake that causes the suspension to act in a way that floating brakes are usually designed to keep from happening. Go figure.

 

[Transcend]

My Swinger felt better than any 5th I've ridden.

That said I'll never ride an SPV shock again. Fox DHX all the way, baby!

Like i said, we had a bunch of them (i think 10?) over 2 years. They shipped on our frames for some reason (were supposed to be rear shockless). They all really, really sucked. Like walmart bike suspension sucked. I much preferred the feeling of the 5ths we had.

That said, I am back on fox as you are (and as I was for a long time before the 2 year 5th deal) and am much happier.

 

[Chunky Munkey]

You mentioned the Cane Creek double barrel. I love the Cane Creek Air Shocks. They're too plush but in my case I put the pressure up really high and love the feel. It's soft on harder landings but hard for uphill and has the exact feel I am going for. Thus I figured with either bike, eventually I'll be tweeking the shock to be a lot stiffer than plush. I like a harder ride but want the shock to suck it up if it goes past a certain point.

The double barrel, I take it I could tweek it to ride like a Cane Creek air shock on 250 lbs of air? If so, I'd just go that route cause I really like Cane Creek. I have had a coil over and didn't like the air shock at first but after I tweaked it I love the air ride now.

 

[Chunky Munkey]

I saw the Fox DHx 5.5 shock, it looked like I could adjust it easier in the woods than the Cane Creek double barrel which appeared I would need tools aka, screwdriver and wrench. The Fox DHx 5.5 also looked like it had a lockout switch on it. Not sure if that was what the lever was for.

Thanks for all this info, it really helps out a lot.

Any input on the FOES forks or would a Manitou Intrinsic be better. The FOES looks like a very nice fork, and I like the AMA Supercross motorcycle style upside down fork but it looks MAJOR heavy weight and the Intrinsic from Manitou seems like it's a nice fork according to the reports on it.

 

[SXtrailrider]

the foes bikes, make you have to stay with foes specific parts such a chain guide and shock

 

[Transcend]

Foes forks are ridiculously expensive. You can get forks for half of it's price that feel just as good.

There is no point in even purchasing a DH bike if you want a stiff ride. They suspension systems are meant to be as supple as possible to absord all manner of hits as well as to keep the rear wheel tracking. They will ramp up as per your settings as they go through the travel. Some shocks are better for this than others.

 

[Banga]

Never actually riding one, I've heard some interesting things:

-The Carnutt shocks make some really bad sounding CLUNK noises when they bottom.

-The legnth of the Carnutts and ratios on the 2:1 bikes really make the suspension feel "amazing". I can't elaborate, but that sounds nice.

Ive never bottomed out my curnutt, and if I have it certainly didnt make a clunk noise.
But any shock will make funny noises if its set up by a muppet.

Like others have said try ride one before laying down the cash.

Ive ridden Monos for the last 3+ years and wouldnt ride anything else, everything thing else feels fexy compared to them.

Depends on your riding style as well, they are great for holding a line and plowing through stuff, the back wheel likes to stick to the ground, but can still easily be flicked around if you want to.

 

[Transcend]

But any shock will make funny noises if its set up by a muppet.

Too true. Oh, the wacky suspension setups I have seen and shaken my head at in wonder.

 

[dexter]

man something about this thread is creeping me out

 

[Transcend]

man something about this thread is creeping me out

You mean that I haven't told the new guy and or gimmick account to go fly a kite yet?

 

[Transcend]

Please do not say extreme any more, thanks.

 

[Chunky Munkey]

the foes bikes, make you have to stay with foes specific parts such a chain guide and shock

Well right there that kind of sways me one way. I'm not crazy about having to buy manufacturer specific parts. I think I got a good idea now to do some more research.

Okay, thanks a lot for the good input! Appreciate it!

 

[foesjunky]

Unless your looking to race stay away from the Foes Mono,
Its a race bike, not a freeride bike or hucking bike. I've raced mine for 2 year and its a great, solid bike.
Where are you located at?
Meaning find someone that own's one and ride it.

 

[wikitypooshlag]

check it. i don't know much about chumba except for they have been around forever and they're a proven design. i thought based on you original description of what you're looking for, this bike might be right up your alley.

http://www.chumbaracing.com/f4.shtml

 

[maxyedor]

Oops, i edited. Some floating brakes are necessary (older yetis and schwins come to mind). The thing is, they are the fad of the week in bicycle design right now and some manufacturers just toss them on without a lot of thought. When they do this they do to make the suspension and rear wheel to funky things if not designed properly.

On the proper single pivot, they can make a really big difference as they allow the suspension to track while the brakes are locked up. They do this by allowing the caliper to rotate a little bit with the wheel as the suspension moves. Without it the suspension stiffens up a fair amount.
.

The Foes floater is one of the best on the market. So design flaws shouldn't be an issue.

As for the Curnutt bottom out issue, if you can bottom it you you shouldn't be allowed to set up your own suspension. Curnutts are designed to come close to bottom out but never actually bottom.

The Foes specific parts aren't too bad, the shocks don't really have issues, so you won't be looking for an upgrade, and if it does need a rebuild it is cheaper than Fox/ Manitou/ or Regressive. They are less adjustable because unlike the other manufacturers they are not one size fits all. They are custom built for each frame, and valved for each rider. The other shocks, may or may not be valved for a specific frame, but are not valved for weight/ riding style, so they have to be really adjustable so everyone can make them work. Most people get the shock dialed and never touch the nobs anyway. The chainguide is proprietary, but you know it will work with the frame out of the box, without any goofy adapters, can't say as much about the M3

Foes customer service is slow, but not crappy. They are a really small company, in fact Brent Foes still hand welds most of the frames. If you call after hours, he will usually pick up the phone. How many owners of other companies will talk to the public, ever?

Both Foes and Intense have a great racing history, both have won an equal number of titles. But the M3 and the DHS are two entirley different animals, while built for the same basic thing, they couldn't be much more different. So because you don't seem to have any experiance with either, your best option is to ride them both and ride evry other DH frame you can get your hands on. Then decide, and forget about what the frame looks like, because no matter how bad-ass it looks if you aren't comfortable you won't be fast, and then your just a wanker on a nice bike.

 

[eater]

I recently started entertaining the idea of maybe buying another bike in the next six months or so. I want a real well built DH style Y frame, with a motocross style type rear swingarm or triangle frame suspension that has really long travel. I've seen the INTENSE M1 and now the M3 and have always wanted one. I have heard great things about the Intense M3 but in my searches I have found a bike that looks like its' as nice, looks like it's got a real sturdy well built frame like the Intense M3 and low and behold it has that long 10 inch travel type spring in the rear that is the typical mono shock motorcycle style of suspension which is a design I like. I really like the Y frame style the Intense M3 has but I wanted to know if anyone had heard of Foes as I don't see them around anywhere on the internet that much but in my searching I found them, and found they made forks too.

Any input on the subject of their bikes and their forks as I heard the Manitou Intrinsic is supposed to be an extremely good fork too.

All opinions will be appreciated. Thanks.

Here is an example of the bike I speak of. The first one I really like the straight up shock design in the back.

And this one is a more traditional style with the shock up the middle of the Y frame. I personally prefer this rear swingarm over the first one, it looks like it would take more punishment. I could be wrong though, I'm not an engineer. But I like the straight up shock on the other.

Both Foes have a FLOATING BRAKE? Not sure what that's all about either.

and as anyone knows, the Intense M3...
http://www.intensecycles.com/Intense_Main[06].html

Here are direct links to larger shots of the Foes for suspension detail.
http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/Pop/Pic.asp?i=/mmasc/Images/large/fr_foe_mono05.jpg

http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/Pop/Pic.asp?i=/mmasc/Images/large/fr_fo_dhsmno2_1.jpg

if you want a allround DH Race bike, and a courve eater buy a Turner DHR with a dhx5 and a rockshox solo air!!

 

[Kntr]

My head hurts from this thread and not the crash I took Sat.

 

[lovebunny]

Ive never bottomed out my curnutt, and if I have it certainly didnt make a clunk noise.
.

if you havent bottomed ever doesnt that mean your not getting fulll travel, meaning its not set up properly, meaning you must be a muppet?

 

[Zutroy]

if you havent bottomed ever doesnt that mean your not getting fulll travel, meaning its not set up properly, meaning you must be a muppet?

Actually as stated above the Curnett really won't bottom, even if you run it way undersprung.

The Mono is a great race bike. It's your basic run crap over setup, it's got a riding style all it's own, but once you get the hang of it, it's just asn nimble as most bike out there. They're pretty strong, the price got dropped to a reasonable price this year so it's a much better deal than in the past.

 

[seismic]

Yeah....the prices on the Foes Mono this year has made it a very interesting frame to consider.

 

[keeping_it_real]

Ha ha Chunky Munky, you're obviously a British guy taking the piss.

 

[Chunky Munkey]

Aaaaa geeze, great! Just great! I had it down to two bikes... thanks Wikitypoosh! NOW I got THREE bikes to research! Jus kid'n... Chumba looks good too.

Hey Foes Junky, thanks for the tip dude. If you ride one and steer someone away from it it's pretty honest. If I lived on the west coast I'd be out racing every weekend. Racing eventually but not for it's primary use so thanks for the honesty. I like a guy that works late and answers the phone.

Sorry for the headache Kantor, take two aspirin and post me in the morning.

Eater, thanks for the tip. Turner looks very nice, the only thing that scares me is square tubing over round. Square bends easier when hit I thought. But it does look very nice though. Like the shock forward design and it appears to have very good machining on it. Thanks.

Okay folks, sorry for the long post. I think I got enough to go off and make an educated decision. There is a Foes dealer in my state but not sure they have one in stock and the Intense dealer doesn't keep an M3 in store. Sux.

Thus the need for input. I think finding and riding each is the key.

Thanks for all the help folks!