axle path

thaflyinfatman · Feb 8, 2005

If that's the kind of feeling you're getting (and the Diesels have a fairly rearward axle path, I think moreso than a Sunday or V10 - could be wrong here) and you want to eliminate it, it sounds to me like you'd want something with a higher pivot (Balfa BB7, BCD Inedible etc).

WheelieMan · Feb 8, 2005

Trek Diesel already has a very high pivot. Maybe its the high pivot on the Diesel that makes the bike feel sluggish? Not sure exactly what you mean...

zedro · Feb 8, 2005

klunky said:
I love my diesel to bits but the only thing I dont really like is on really rocky stuff the back wheel feels like im dragging a pendulum over the rocks. (exaggerated)

sounds like a poor shock setup, although i'm not 100% on what your analogy is saying. Do you mean it feels like the rear wheel is being hung-up and the BB being pulled down?

joelsman · Feb 8, 2005

try backing your compresion off one or 2 clicks.

lovebunny · Feb 8, 2005

the guy who suggested a bb7 is a good option. i just got one about a month ago and its wonderfull.completly rails evrywhere.

iridebikes · Feb 9, 2005

axle path is very important. if you want to go fast, and smooth. it really counts. I didn't think it would make that big of a difference, but it does. I got a bullit... sold it within 2 months. single pivot biks have big downfalls. they feel like they want to catch on bumps and that sort of thing. like you were saying, it feels like its a dragging a pendulum over the rocksl its all because its a single pivot design. my personal suggestion would be a canfield brothers formula 1. check out what lance and chris canfield have to say about it http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/Suspension.htm it explained exaclty what was wrong with my bike. and because the desiel is the same single pivot design it wants to catch up on the bumbs. go for a canfield!

ÃX · Feb 9, 2005

thr trek is high pivot

i think it is shock setup too.

take all comprestion out and no spring preload.

if you are bottoming keep going up in pring
weights till you olny do it 2x a run

DHS · Feb 9, 2005

iridebikes said:
axle path is very important. if you want to go fast, and smooth. it really counts. I didn't think it would make that big of a difference, but it does. I got a bullit... sold it within 2 months. single pivot biks have big downfalls. they feel like they want to catch on bumps and that sort of thing. like you were saying, it feels like its a dragging a pendulum over the rocksl its all because its a single pivot design. my personal suggestion would be a canfield brothers formula 1. check out what lance and chris canfield have to say about it http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/Suspension.htm it explained exaclty what was wrong with my bike. and because the desiel is the same single pivot design it wants to catch up on the bumbs. go for a canfield!

never had that issue with my Racelink. and i've tried a lot of different bikes.
i also have a Karpiel. Racelink is still wayyy smoother....

Smelly · Feb 9, 2005

thaflyinfatman said:
If that's the kind of feeling you're getting (and the Diesels have a fairly rearward axle path, I think moreso than a Sunday or V10 - could be wrong here) and you want to eliminate it, it sounds to me like you'd want something with a higher pivot (Balfa BB7, BCD Inedible etc).

bb7 has a rearward axle path due to its high pivot. i believe the inedible does too. ie: not the right bike for him

tmoney · Feb 9, 2005

I too have a question regarding this thread. Is their an ideal axle path or is it a preference thing. I did notice going from a bullit to a demo 9 how much smoother and less feedback the demo has. Anyway, that is my question. What is the ideal path or is their any?

-tmoney

ÃX · Feb 9, 2005

tmoney said:
I too have a question regarding this thread. Is their an ideal axle path or is it a preference thing. I did notice going from a bullit to a demo 9 how much smoother and less feedback the demo has. Anyway, that is my question. What is the ideal path or is their any?

-tmoney

everyone has ther own ideal.

high is better for square hits.
low better for flat drops or
landing from air.

so no there is not one that is best
for everything. well, there is one
that will please, them all. the 2x4

Smelly · Feb 9, 2005

bcd, are the shocks set up differently so different bumps activate a different shock? looks like you have two axle paths on there

neversummersnow · Feb 9, 2005

Alex,

David is making his own DH rig...he has access to a whole plethora of machine shop stuff.

It mimics your 2x4 in some ways but takes it to the next level in design. It'll weigh 50+ lbs but has a LOT of cool ideas...(merge the Yeti 303 and your 2x4)...only problem is it will grow a lot under braking iinto corners...it's more of a wall orniment than anything else anyway though...gotta appreciate...

neversummersnow · Feb 9, 2005

Alex's bike has a TRUE virtual pivot point...the wheel can move anywhere in a certain area...it's unreal for bump eating ability, nothing else out there that can do what that bike can do...

Pair that bike up with Darren's ability to tune shocks and that would be the ultimate in bump eating...it wouldn't get any better...

Handling is where it can suffer, the wheelbase changes all the time...but like i said, under the right shock tuner, it can work VERY well...personally, I'd LOVE to race one

zedro · Feb 9, 2005

neversummersnow said:
Alex's bike has a TRUE virtual pivot point...

really? what does a fake virtual pivot point look like then?

:rolleyes:

ÃX · Feb 9, 2005

squarewheels said:
bcd, are the shocks set up differently so different bumps activate a different shock? looks like you have two axle paths on there

yes, square hit move the high and flat landing goes vert.
like jeff said any where it needs to go in a zone.

good freeride design but needed some slimming for race rig.

JEFF:

cool, glad to see him make a bike.
it is fun to do for sure.
put ideas to use.

binary visions · Feb 9, 2005

zedro said:
really? what does a fake virtual pivot point look like then?

It's probably the same as the difference between a TRUE 4-bar and all the others...

ÃX · Feb 9, 2005

zedro said:
really? what does a fake virtual pivot point look like then?

a stream of PEE lol

zedro · Feb 9, 2005

binary visions said:
It's probably the same as the difference between a TRUE 4-bar and all the others...

i'm gonna invent the first SUPER-TRUE 4-bar....

Kornphlake · Feb 9, 2005

zedro said:
i'm gonna invent the first SUPER-TRUE 4-bar....

Too late shimano already grabbed that one up and used it on an exxage derailur, they had some other name but it was essentially SUPER-TRUE 4-bar.

OGRipper · Feb 9, 2005

Just curious Klunky, are you talking with or without brakes, or both? If it's a braking thing, do you have a floater?

zedro · Feb 9, 2005

klunky said:
I dont think its compression as I have it virtually wound off completely. My spring weight is correct I think as I bottom out around 4 or 5 times per run on my home course.
I guess my description has made the problem sound worse than it is. Its not like The bike feels like im pulling and anchor it just sometimes feels like the wheel is not getting over boulders as fast as I would like it to (dam that makes it sound like compression and its not)
I guess what I need to know is will the DW link or VPP benafit me?

this is what i was thinking at first. It seems when high pivoted bikes are set too soft the bike over-shoots its travel and drags the BB down. This happens to my bike when i set the pressure too low on the DHX; the bump just wants to keep dragging the wheel back and up. If your spring is correct, turn up some compression.

the DW-link and VPP wont benefit you if you can't set them up properly either

WheelieMan · Feb 9, 2005

iridebikes said:
axle path is very important. if you want to go fast, and smooth. it really counts. I didn't think it would make that big of a difference, but it does. I got a bullit... sold it within 2 months. single pivot biks have big downfalls. they feel like they want to catch on bumps and that sort of thing. like you were saying, it feels like its a dragging a pendulum over the rocksl its all because its a single pivot design. my personal suggestion would be a canfield brothers formula 1. check out what lance and chris canfield have to say about it http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/Suspension.htm it explained exaclty what was wrong with my bike. and because the desiel is the same single pivot design it wants to catch up on the bumbs. go for a canfield!

No... single pivot bikes do not catch on bumps any more than multi-pivots. It's the wheelpath that determines this, not amount of pivots.

dcamp29 · Feb 9, 2005

neversummersnow said:
Alex,

David is making his own DH rig...he has access to a whole plethora of machine shop stuff.

It mimics your 2x4 in some ways but takes it to the next level in design. It'll weigh 50+ lbs but has a LOT of cool ideas...(merge the Yeti 303 and your 2x4)...only problem is it will grow a lot under braking iinto corners...it's more of a wall orniment than anything else anyway though...gotta appreciate...

shut up..... i don't want anyone stealing my brilliant plans. lol. anyways all im saying is it will kick much ass.

zedro · Feb 9, 2005

WheelieMan said:
No... single pivot bikes do not catch on bumps any more than multi-pivots. It's the wheelpath that determines this, not amount of pivots.

that and the suspension tuning

ÃX · Feb 9, 2005

dcamp29 said:
shut up..... i don't want anyone stealing my brilliant plans. lol. anyways all im saying is it will kick much ass.

pm me a pic or drawling

Lumpy_Gravy · Feb 9, 2005

Maybe the trek handles like the 223, which from my experience can tend to skip over bumps rather than tracking them.

From my 2 very short rides on a 223, the first time it tracked the ground very well, however the second time, with a different shock setting, it skipped over the bumps. Both felt good though.

Maybe this is a comparsion and it is down to shock setup.

P.S get a Sunday though

iridebikes · Feb 9, 2005

i know, single pivot bikes such as bullits and that sort of thing, as well as "4bar" they axle is still pivoting around one point. The thing about canfields are that the axle travels up and away from the bottom bracket in a rearward arch.

WheelieMan said:
No... single pivot bikes do not catch on bumps any more than multi-pivots. It's the wheelpath that determines this, not amount of pivots.

zedro · Feb 9, 2005

iridebikes said:
The thing about canfields are that the axle travels up and away from the bottom bracket in a rearward arch.

actually the axle path isnt all that different from a Diesel; it does move foward in the latter end of the travel.

Jm_ · Feb 9, 2005

zedro said:
actually the axle path isnt all that different from a Diesel; it does move foward in the latter end of the travel.

And suddenly I solved the biggest problem of the universe and my brain exploded;

So instead of having to worry about chain extention, we could simply have a generator in the bottom bracket, then transmit a microwave to the reciever dish (obviously non-disc side), which is connected to the hub, which in turn operates via a electronic speed control transmitted from the handlebar. It's so simple it's got to work! Then we could finally get the optimal X-path wheepath, with optional zig zag 4-way compliance.

Not only that, but you could simply have a completely floating rear end! As long as you have line of sight, you could go riding and leave the wheel at your house, and it would still spin! Holy crap this is genius, wait untill I share it on pinkbike. You could help your buddies get up the hill, and best of all, you could soften a powerbar, which as we all know is a superior frame material when cold, due to tensile strength that is off the charts.

The Kadvang · Feb 9, 2005

Jm_ said:
And suddenly I solved the biggest problem of the universe and my brain exploded;

So instead of having to worry about chain extention, we could simply have a generator in the bottom bracket, then transmit a microwave to the reciever dish (obviously non-disc side), which is connected to the hub, which in turn operates via a electronic speed control transmitted from the handlebar. It's so simple it's got to work! Then we could finally get the optimal X-path wheepath, with optional zig zag 4-way compliance.

Not only that, but you could simply have a completely floating rear end! As long as you have line of sight, you could go riding and leave the wheel at your house, and it would still spin! Holy crap this is genius, wait untill I share it on pinkbike. You could help your buddies get up the hill, and best of all, you could soften a powerbar, which as we all know is a superior frame material when cold, due to tensile strength that is off the charts.

OMG DUDER SOO SICKTOR LOLZ BUT CUD U HUCK IT LRG?

Jm_ · Feb 9, 2005

The Kadvang said:
OMG DUDER SOO SICKTOR LOLZ BUT CUD U HUCK IT LRG?

No, you can't huck it huge because it will mess with the satallites.

The Kadvang · Feb 9, 2005

Jm_ said:
No, you can't huck it huge because it will mess with the satallites.

Poop.

flymybike · Feb 16, 2005

zedro said:
actually the axle path isnt all that different from a Diesel; it does move foward in the latter end of the travel.

The Canfield Formula 1 is rearward through the entire travel, ending vertical. It is more rearward than a Diesel, Canfield is 60mm. Look at the height of the upper pulley wheel, ours is higher because it has more chain growth that has to be neutralized.

Hey Zedro I never saw a pic of your complete bike. Giver up!

zedro · Feb 16, 2005

flymybike said:
The Canfield Formula 1 is rearward through the entire travel, ending vertical. It is more rearward than a Diesel, Canfield is 60mm. Look at the height of the upper pulley wheel, ours is higher because it has more chain growth that has to be neutralized.

Hey Zedro I never saw a pic of your complete bike. Giver up!

hmm...my models couldn't of been that off...anyways

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65578

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63394

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63396

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63395

flymybike · Feb 16, 2005

Nice, didn't know you had a steel main frame on her. That is Awesome!!!
How often do you ride it? What are the pros and con of how it rides? If you don't mind.
We have made a few different bikes with differing amounts of rearward travel. The Fatty Fat and the Signature frames have the most but also have more travel than the F1, 10in vs 9in. The F1 still has more rearward than any production frame I know of.
I would bet your bike has a good amount of rearward as well. Do you know off the top of your head how much?

zedro · Feb 16, 2005

not sure but its over 50mm (it's been 2 years since i finalised that parameter).

I didnt get as much riding time as i wanted, once every week or two, still dialing in the linkage. Overall it rides great, it is heavy as expected but that hasent bothered me all that much. A longer front center wheelbase would of suited me better. It tracks and corners really well, swallows the bumps with the DHX, but it does lack some vibration sensitivity (i'm thinking its the size and weight of the swingarm thats the problems). It pedals pretty amazingly despite its weight; very stable and only lifts when on an incline in low gearing, not a typical DH situation. Braking is very flat with the floater setup. Overall i'm extreamely pleased with the outcome as a first project; it's biggest fault is the assembly/ease of maintenance, but i'll chalk that upto designer inexperience/ignorance.

axle path

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